Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

While we are calling for coaches to get fired you can also put JOE BUGEL in there as well. He is the O-Line coach and our O-Line is awful. He has not groomed any young lineman since he has returned with the Gibbs. He is not getting a free pass in my book because we can't run in the red zone. Message to Coach Zorn stop trying to run the ball in the Red Zone because the last 2 games we have been Stuffed on the 1 yard line.( Rams/Lions). O-Line = Marshmellows
Right now our O-Line can't opening a hole even if Adrian Peterson was our RB. Joe Bugel should have insisted to the front office and the Head Coach that we need to draft some O-Lineman if he new we would be this awful. Bugel thanks for all your service but these guys are not playing up to speed and you are o-Line coach so you get the blame just like Zorn and Blache. If we do changes coaching staff please Dan Synder wait until the season is over so future head coaches will see you really have change and are not impulsive. This team needs a tough SOB like Jon Gruden with energy and fire to kick them in the ass. Clean the entire house Dan not just a few rooms.

re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

Bugel is not the answer either.. We won't fire JZ just yet but I really do believe if Tampa comes to DC and beats us, he is gone.. I would like either Gruden or Shanahan imo they would turn us around in a heartbeat.. Too bad for us though man, a season in which we thought we would contend has turned into a disaster.

re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

Don't Blame Buges. We havent drafted an O-lineman in the 1st or 2nd round since Samuels in 2000. I'd be willing to bet the house that we're the only team that can claim that, then we wonder why our O-line depth is lacking.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=skins89moss;598097]While we are calling for coaches to get fired you can also put JOE BUGEL in there as well. He is the O-Line coach and our O-Line is awful. He has not groomed any young lineman since he has returned with the Gibbs. He is not getting a free pass in my book because we can't run in the red zone. Message to Coach Zorn stop trying to run the ball in the Red Zone because the last 2 games we have been Stuffed on the 1 yard line.( Rams/Lions). O-Line = Marshmellows
Right now our O-Line can't opening a hole even if Adrian Peterson was our RB. Joe Bugel should have insisted to the front office and the Head Coach that we need to draft some O-Lineman if he new we would be this awful. Bugel thanks for all your service but these guys are not playing up to speed and you are o-Line coach so you get the blame just like Zorn and Blache. If we do changes coaching staff please Dan Synder wait until the season is over so future head coaches will see you really have change and are not impulsive. This team needs a tough SOB like Jon Gruden with energy and fire to kick them in the ass. Clean the entire house Dan not just a few rooms.[/quote]

Our out of control car is headed toward the Grand Canyon and you're worrying about what song is on the radio.

Joe Bugel is light years away from our problems. He's a leftover coach from Gibbs 2.0 and really has no bearing on where we're headed as a franchise. You wouldn't even notice if he was gone...due to our OL personnel and not coaching. I respect Buges.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;598109]Our out of control car is headed toward the Grand Canyon and you're worrying about what song is on the radio.

Joe Bugel is light years away from our problems. He's a leftover coach from Gibbs 2.0 and really has no bearing on where we're headed as a franchise. You wouldn't even notice if he was gone...due to our OL personnel and not coaching. I respect Buges.[/quote]

I know he is from Gibbs coaching staff, so is Greg Blache. Does this give him a free pass. Did you know that Joe Bugel was once a head coach in the NFL? He is older and he is not getting our O-Line up to speed. I also know that we have not drafted a O-Line in the 1st or 2nd round since Samuels and Jansen. Does anyone remember Mark Wilson OL from CaL or the stiff Jim Molinaro OL from Notre Dame. He did nothing with them either. If he has any pull he should have been in Vinnie and Dan's ear to draft a O-Lineman this year instead of selecting 2 LB (Cody released) and (Henson not activate on game day). What a reach with these 2 thus far. Not just blame Bugel but he should also take much of the blame as Zorn and Blache.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=skins89moss;598118]I know he is from Gibbs coaching staff, so is Greg Blache. Does this give him a free pass. Did you know that Joe Bugel was once a head coach in the NFL? He is older and he is not getting our O-Line up to speed. I also know that we have not drafted a O-Line in the 1st or 2nd round since Samuels and Jansen. Does anyone remember Mark Wilson OL from CaL or the stiff Jim Molinaro OL from Notre Dame. He did nothing with them either. If he has any pull he should have been in Vinnie and Dan's ear to draft a O-Lineman this year instead of selecting 2 LB (Cody released) and (Henson not activate on game day). What a reach with these 2 thus far. Not just blame Bugel but he should also take much of the blame as Zorn and Blache.[/quote]

Greg Blache was actually brought in by Gregg Williams to coach the DL. Joe Gibbs brought Gregg Williams in to take care of the defense entirely and act as Co-Head Coach.

The reason Blache is here is because of Williams and not Gibbs.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;598121]Greg Blache was actually brought in by Gregg Williams to coach the DL. Joe Gibbs brought Gregg Williams in to take care of the defense entirely and act as Co-Head Coach.

The reason Blache is here is because of Williams and not Gibbs.[/quote]

Williams wasn't the Head Coach Gibbs was. The Head Coach has to approve who is going to be on his staff. They are both gone now so now what?

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=skins89moss;598124]Williams wasn't the Head Coach Gibbs was. The Head Coach has to approve who is going to be on his staff. They are both gone now so now what?[/quote]

Williams was never a head coach with us. He was Co-Head Coach and completely in control of the defense...but never coach for us.

If they are both gone...why are there 4 coaches that Gregg appointed to his defensive ranks and that are still coaching our team? Gibbs still has 2 coaches still coaching for us.


Are they really gone or is their half-ass ghost still coaching our team?

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;598109]Our out of control car is headed toward the Grand Canyon and you're worrying about what song is on the radio.

Joe Bugel is light years away from our problems. He's a leftover coach from Gibbs 2.0 and really has no bearing on where we're headed as a franchise. You wouldn't even notice if he was gone...due to our OL personnel and not coaching. I respect Buges.[/quote]

Yeah, I think you are probably right. Bugel is not part of the long-term solution for this franchise, but he is not among its biggest issues. Watching the game yesterday it was glaringly obvious that Chad Rhinehart is not an NFL caliber player. Not even close. I have trouble blaming Bugel for that. He didn't draft him in the 3rd round. You know what they say, you can add all the chicken salad you want but ....

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

Bugel still has it, what he doesn't have is the horses to run with.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

Bugel did not draft Rhinehart but dam he is his position coach as well as Heyers. I guess its much easier to get FA lineman and plug them in than teaching Rookie picks. Or even Rookie free agents. As far as I'm concerned Bugel can also be let go if Zorn is fired.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=skins89moss;598159]Bugel did not draft Rhinehart but dam he is his position coach as well as Heyers. I guess its much easier to get FA lineman and plug them in than teaching Rookie picks. Or even Rookie free agents. [B]As far as I'm concerned Bugel can also be let go if Zorn is fired[/B].[/quote]

How about this novel idea???

Let the next coach who comes in next bring HIS OWN COACHES to the team and have him fill out his coaching ranks instead of doing him "a favor" by hiring a partial staff list of former coaching greats.

Seriously...the fact that people, not you skins89moss, are choosing coaches to stay like they're in a school lunch a la carte line is more of the same Snyder-tactics if you ask me.

Teams bring in coaches because they are qualified to coach and manage the execution of their team, TO INCLUDE THE COACHING STAFF.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;598160]How about this novel idea???

Let the next coach who comes in next bring HIS OWN COACHES to the team and have him fill out his coaching ranks instead of doing him "a favor" by hiring a partial staff list of former coaching greats.

Seriously...the fact that people, not you skins89moss, are choosing coaches to stay like they're in a school lunch a la carte line is more of the same Snyder-tactics if you ask me.

Teams bring in coaches because they are qualified to coach and manage the execution of their team, TO INCLUDE THE COACHING STAFF.[/quote]

One question... do you sleep?

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

I absolutely don't think he still has it, and I said as much yesterday [url]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/32218-new-coaches-who-2.html#post597656[/url]

As I said then, I think part of the reason that we didn't do more to address the O-line in the offseason is that Vinny and Dan still think that Buges is some guru who can turn any group of 5 fat asses into The Hogs 2.0. We've clearly need better players on the line for some time but we've done the bare minimum to address the problem. Why?

The fact that TWO weeks in a row we couldn't gain one yard that we desperately needed tells you that there is a major problem with the line, and I think it starts with the top down.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=ArtMonkDrillz;598164]I absolutely don't think he still has it, and I said as much yesterday [url]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/32218-new-coaches-who-2.html#post597656[/url]

As I said then, I think part of the reason that we didn't do more to address the O-line in the offseason is that Vinny and Dan still think that Buges is some guru who can turn any group of 5 fat asses into The Hogs 2.0. We've clearly need better players on the line for some time but we've done the bare minimum to address the problem. Why?

The fact that TWO weeks in a row we couldn't gain one yard that we desperately needed tells you that there is a major problem with the line, and I think it starts with the top down.[/quote]

Yea 4th and goal back to back games and we can't bust a grape. Our O-Line is getting pushed back and Portis has now hole to run threw. O-Line better get head out of ass or our RB will get killed.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;598160]How about this novel idea???

Let the next coach who comes in next bring HIS OWN COACHES to the team and have him fill out his coaching ranks instead of doing him "a favor" by hiring a partial staff list of former coaching greats.

Seriously...the fact that people, not you skins89moss, are choosing coaches to stay like they're in a school lunch a la carte line is more of the same Snyder-tactics if you ask me.

Teams bring in coaches because they are qualified to coach and manage the execution of their team, TO INCLUDE THE COACHING STAFF.[/quote][/I]
I agree that the new coach should select his coaching staff unlike Zorn because Gibbs retired and Synder did not want Greg Williams. He was turned down by qualified coaches but unstead settle on Zorn. Greg Williams would not stand for Synders BS I believe that was the main reason he was not consider. Just My opinion.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

Ok I'm off work at 6am and will go home and crash out. I wonder when I wake up will there be a breaking news on ESPN that states Redskins fired HC, or DC. Be back on tonight.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

I don't think Bugel is the problem as far as the ineffectivness of the OL, it would be great if he had some better players to work with. It's no secret why Samuels is our best O-lineman, the best we do after him is two 3rd rounders and a FA as starters.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

It wasn't like our offensive line deficiencies were a secret going into this year. Whether Bugel still has it or not I don't know, but it seems ridiculous to call for his job as a result of the poor play of what everybody already knew was by far our weakest unit.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=skins89moss;598168]Ok I'm off work at 6am and will go home and crash out. I wonder when I wake up will there be a breaking news on ESPN that states Redskins fired HC, or DC. Be back on tonight.[/quote]

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, chances are nobody is getting canned.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=Longtimefan;598169]I don't think Bugel is the problem as far as the ineffectivness of the OL, it would be great if he had some better players to work with. It's no secret why Samuels is our best O-lineman, the best we do after him is two 3rd rounders and a FA as starters.[/quote]

Ok so yiou think he gets a free pass. Unlike Zorn and Blache who are on the hot seat. Im just saying he has the rep. for being a great O-Line coach in the past but maybe he has lost his edge to coach up our players.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

Yes, the COACH should pick all of his coaches.

Before the season i thought that the key to our season was our run game. Well, three games in and I'm not impressed at all. I'm grading our run game a D+ at the moment.

On the 4 and 1 play yesterday a run call was not a horrible call but (before Brian Billick called it) i was thinking it would be a great play time for play action. We ran it and our oline got stuffed.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=skins89moss;598172]Ok so yiou think he gets a free pass. Unlike Zorn and Blache who are on the hot seat. Im just saying he has the rep. for being a great O-Line coach in the past but maybe he has lost his edge to coach up our players.[/quote]

I'm a firm believer in the old saying "A carpenter is only as good as his tools" Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. Bugel and his OL are in need of better talent, watching the line perform over the last eleven games reinforces that inescapeable fact.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

Do I dare to say that Buffalo is playing with a make-shift offensive line, and they have put up more of a fight than our team?

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

Well bottom line Buges ain't getting it done. Good tools or not. There are and continue to be very cabable assistants in this league that get it done no matter what, year in and year out. Sure we haven't drafted offensive lineman in the top rounds in years, but how come Buges wasn't making his case? And if he was, why is it that no one was listening?

It's a crying shame we're seeing Clinton Portis, who could potentially break the Redskins all time rushing record, not able to get one yard in crunch time. Sure there's plenty of blame to go around, but you have to look at leadership first and you have to look at your coaching staff. What absolutely boggles the mind is that none of Zorn's assistant head coaches are his folks. He was essentially handed Gibbs 2.0 leftovers and told to make do. Man.

But the bigger story here is that nothing brings out the cracks in the facade like losing.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=12thMan;598206]Well bottom line Buges ain't getting it done. Good tools or not. There are and continue to be very cabable assistants in this league that get it done no matter what, year in and year out. Sure we haven't drafted offensive lineman in the top rounds in years, but how come Buges wasn't making his case? And if he was, why is it that no one was listening?

[B]It's a crying shame we're seeing Clinton Portis, who could potentially break the Redskins all time rushing record, not able to get one yard in crunch time. [/B]Sure there's plenty of blame to go around, but you have to look at leadership first and you have to look at your coaching staff. What absolutely boggles the mind is that none of Zorn's assistant head coaches are his folks. He was essentially handed Gibbs 2.0 leftovers and told to make do. Man.

But the bigger story here is that nothing brings out the cracks in the facade like losing.[/quote]

I don't think Clinton Portis is scaring any defenses though.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;598211]I don't think Clinton Portis is scaring any defenses though.[/quote]

No but we're certainly not making much of an effort to get the ground game going.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

Is now the time to start worrying about the O-line? Because going into the season lot of people thought we were fine and even a few thought we could be one of the strongest in the league. Buges isnt the problem. Its these jackasses Vinny, Zorn, and Snyder making a decisions not to draft or pursue free agents. I love our team, but hate our FO. Reinhart is a joke. Heyer can pass protect but can run block. Our running game sucks. Pass protection has been average. Rabauch is an average player. Samuels I love to death, but he is getting up there with age. Dock has been solid, except for false starting at our home games. Did this FO watch the end of last season? Jesus, our Oline SUCKED! FO WAKE UP!!

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;598158]Bugel still has it, what he doesn't have is the horses to run with.[/quote]


I agree with this.

We need a truly dominant lineman on the right side and we just don't have it, in the lineup or on the bench. The present version of Randy Thomas wasn't dominant going into the season so it isn't like that injury can be pointed to.

Our running game is only marginally effective on one side and defensive coordinators are well aware of this.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

If you supply the chef with ****, don't complain when he gives you a **** sandwich. Aside from Samuels, who is aging, we don't have a single offensive lineman who I would call "solid." Dockery gets flagged too often, isn't great in pass protection, and doesn't maul people like he should when run blocking. Rabach is a mediocre center. Rinehart is totally unproven. Heyer is subpar; I've never understood why people thought this guy was anything better than a decent backup. We've got talent at other positions, but the offensive line is pretty awful.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;598211]I don't think Clinton Portis is scaring any defenses though.[/quote]

It's pretty hard to scare people when you are getting hit in the backfield within 0.5 seconds of getting the ball. The run blocking is simply atrocious.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;598430]It's pretty hard to scare people when you are getting hit in the backfield within 0.5 seconds of getting the ball. The run blocking is simply atrocious.[/quote]It's probably about half the run blocking, and half Portis not hitting the hole has hard as he could in his younger days.

Don't get me wrong, when the OL opens up a hole, Portis still hits it as hard as he ever did. The difference is when the defense comes up with 8 in the box. For the first half of last year, Portis could still get three or four yards with even a small seam. The same exact play is now no gain or a single yard.

Basically, I think the Redskins are a worse power blocking team than they were last year, but for most of the field, the blocking has been pretty standard with other years.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;598431]It's probably about half the run blocking, and half Portis not hitting the hole has hard as he could in his younger days.

Don't get me wrong, when the OL opens up a hole, Portis still hits it as hard as he ever did. The difference is when the defense comes up with 8 in the box. For the first half of last year, Portis could still get three or four yards with even a small seam. The same exact play is now no gain or a single yard.

Basically, I think the Redskins are a worse power blocking team than they were last year, but for most of the field, the blocking has been pretty standard with other years.[/quote]

Hey GTripp, not sure if you saw my apology last night, I hope you did. Your evals are great. I was making a failed attempt at being funny in regards to someone last week saying they would wait for your analysis before they decided to freak out. So again sorry if I ruffled feathers I did not mean to.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

I used to think Buges was the man who could make a diamond out of a blue colar player like Samuels. Lately I have seen less and less of his abilities to coach up players. Maybe it's cause the team picks up garbage and asks him to mold it into something special but it hasn't worked in the last couple of yrs. I'm beggining to wonder how much he is being asked to change his blocking scheme's. The WCO is different. I also wonder how much zone blocking they are doing. Buges believe highly in man to man blocking and if they are asking him to change his scheme then I wonder how much he really understands zone blocking in order to devise a decent scheme.

I may be way off. It just seems like other teams have figured out what his players are doing and are beating it at the line of scrimage.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;598163]One question... do you sleep?[/quote]

You caught me sleeping actually...if you noticed from 9AM-1PM my posting frequency trails off. That's when I crawl back into my coffin : )

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

I don't really see Buges as the problem. Heyer's is not a very good RT, but he's playing way over his head for an UDFA. I have no idea with Rinehart. My rose colored glasses told me that he needed game experience and more time, but they got shattered yesterday. On the right side, we have an undrafted free agent trying to compensate for poor play from a sophomore first-time starter. That's a recipe for disaster no matter who the coach is.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

I still wonder about our transition from Gibbs II to a WC offense, as far as the run game goes. When Zorn came in, we kept our run scheme, or some element of it. Where are we now? One question is, is Buges being asked to coach a run-block system he does not know well? Another is, are we still some kind of hybrid, one that is the worst of both worlds? Do we tip our run plays off because we can't or don't run the straight Holmgren WC block schemes? Or do we have decent personnel for Gibbs run scheme but not for Zorn's?

In many ways, Buges has spoiled us by making so many silk purses out of sows' ears. But there are limits. I would have liked to see a new O-line coach come in with Zorn, given the system switch. At this point, we're going most likely stick it out and then clean house from top-to-bottom staff-wise after the season, barring the remarkable turnaround I expect any time now ;).

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;598158]Bugel still has it, what he doesn't have is the horses to run with.[/quote]

Your right. Who ever started this thread is barking up the wrong tree. He has been the only constant on this team. He was here last year right after a family member died. Like a day or two later. So I think the appropriate thing to do is back off. He has paid his dues and he is not the issue. He kept this raggedy line together with the little he had the past few years. Blame the right people. He is old but still one of the best O-line coaches out there. That's why we have him because we have no talent on our O-line. Get a clue.

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=JWsleep;598522]I still wonder about our transition from Gibbs II to a WC offense, as far as the run game goes. When Zorn came in, we kept our run scheme, or some element of it. Where are we now? One question is, is Buges being asked to coach a run-block system he does not know well? Another is, are we still some kind of hybrid, one that is the worst of both worlds? Do we tip our run plays off because we can't or don't run the straight Holmgren WC block schemes? Or do we have decent personnel for Gibbs run scheme but not for Zorn's?

In many ways, Buges has spoiled us by making so many silk purses out of sows' ears. But there are limits. I would have liked to see a new O-line coach come in with Zorn, given the system switch. At this point, we're going most likely stick it out and then clean house from top-to-bottom staff-wise after the season, barring the remarkable turnaround I expect any time now ;).[/quote]

I agree. It might be me but it seems like we are not power running. Trying to do everything with speed and Portis is still a good back but not as fast. Perfect example. We used to run the ball up the gut on the goal line. Now we go left with sweep and other bs. If is a speed play or play where someone has to get to the outside. Why was Alridge not used on the plays were we need speed and use Portis for the power running game. Seems like we are trying to be something our personnel is not made to be.

Why not give the ball to Seller up the gut and tell him to hold on to the ball and knock someone back instead of trying to go over them or around them?

Re: Does Joe Bugel still have it?
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;598593]I agree. It might be me but it seems like we are not power running. Trying to do everything with speed and Portis is still a good back but not as fast. Perfect example. We used to run the ball up the gut on the goal line. Now we go left with sweep and other bs. If is a speed play or play where someone has to get to the outside. Why was Alridge not used on the plays were we need speed and use Portis for the power running game. Seems like we are trying to be something our personnel is not made to be.

Why not give the ball to Seller up the gut and tell him to hold on to the ball and knock someone back instead of trying to go over them or around them?[/quote]

We have tried Sellers in short yardage in past attemps and he to has been stopped. He is to slow hitting the hole.