I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

We all talk about Snyder not showing any patients but what are all the fans now doing? When Zorn was hired all the talk was it takes 2 years for the O to learn and get down the timing of the WCO. Joe T. and others said over and over again it takes 2 years and fans need to be patient. We are 4 weeks into the season not even close to having two years in the system and now everyone is jumping ship. Just a thought.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

Well it's not like at the end of two years you suddenly have learned it. The expectation is that you see progress over the course of a year and a half. Have we seen that progress?

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

The fans of the Washinton Redskins are impatient, always have been impatient, and always will be impatient. People in DC want instant gratification on the football field just as they experience in their every day lives. When things don't work the way we expect immediately, we want to change it. It is the attitude that comes with the town. The only way to counter the fans attitude of the DC area is to ignore it and be patient. Kind of hard to do when you (the owner) are a fan who was raised in this town.

If I can become a millionaire in a year, then why can't I win a Superbowl in a year?

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=SmootSmack;603823]Well it's not like at the end of two years you suddenly have learned it. The expectation is that you see progress over the course of a year and a half. Have we seen that progress?[/quote]

I think that there has been progress. It just hasn't translated into points and wins yet. If the Skins stay the course, they can get there.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

yea like smootsmack said, the problem is no progress has been shown. If anything, regression. That regression can probably be attributed to the declining talent of our o-line since our 6-2 start last year, but regardless of the reason, we are still declining.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=Angry;603833]I think that there has been progress. It just hasn't translated into points and wins yet. If the Skins stay the course, they can get there.[/quote]

I've seen progress moving the ball but like you said not in scoring which will lead to those wins. The toughest place to run any system is in the red zone and thats where I see our biggest problem and that is where the timing is most crucial. If they can improve on that then those losses we have had are wins.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=firstdown;603821]We all talk about Snyder not showing any patients but what are all the fans now doing? When Zorn was hired all the talk was it takes 2 years for the O to learn and get down the timing of the WCO. Joe T. and others said over and over again it takes 2 years and fans need to be patient. We are 4 weeks into the season not even close to having two years in the system and [B]now everyone is jumping ship[/B]. Just a thought.[/quote]

i dont think EVERYONE is jumping ship, unless cultbrennan69 = everyone. alot of us may bitch and moan about JC or JZ in some-what knee jerk reactions to what we see, but i think most of us (based on whats posted on the warpath) are willing to give them both the rest of the season to show signs of progress.

go skins!!

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

How long does it take to learn how to call proper plays? How long does it take to make in and out game adjustments as a head coach in order to win games? How long does it take to learn to motivate and lead a team? How long should I wait to see progression in an offense?

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=SmootSmack;603823]Well it's not like at the end of two years you suddenly have learned it. The expectation is that you see progress over the course of a year and a half. Have we seen that progress?[/quote]

I definitely think we have seen progress in Campbell; however I don't think its enough to justify signing him to a big contract... especially given that he would likely be starting over and learning a new offensive system next year if he stayed in 2010.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

I am less concerned about the system because we all know it can work. I am more concerned about the fact that we apparently only have one player on offense who is a difference maker. Let's face it: JC certainly hasn't been a world beater, Portis looks old, the linemen range from simply average to old, Sellers has looked like an ordinary fullback and the WRs look not very good to old. Only Cooley is any good right now. The problem isn't so much the system or play calling really as it is talent I think. And knowing the system will cover up a lack of talent only so much.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=SmootSmack;603823]Well it's not like at the end of two years you suddenly have learned it. The expectation is that you see progress over the course of a year and a half. Have we seen that progress?[/quote]

Are you sure? My understanding was that you start off great for about eight games, get progressively worse for the next 23 and then kick ass on the 32nd.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=Angry;603833][B]I think that there has been progress[/B]. [B]It just hasn't translated into points and wins yet[/B]. If the Skins stay the course, they can get there.[/quote]

You must be kidding, this team and coaching staff are lost. If not where exactly do you see this progress?

If the SKINS stay this course this massive train wreck will continue for a LONG TIME. Changes are needed. This job is way over Zorns head.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

I think the true problem with us is before Lewis came on board yesterday who had experience in the WCO besides Zorn? I don't think anyone has therefore i'm not convinced all the coaches know what they are coaching. Other coaches bring in Cam Cameron, Dom Capers, Mike Nolan & etc. All previous coaches who had experience and know what they are doing.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=Angry;603833]I think that there has been progress. It just hasn't translated into points and wins yet. [I]If the Skins stay the course, they can get there[/I].[/quote]

Staying the course wouldnt have saved the Titanic from sinking and it won't help this team. At some point, its time to abandon ship and get on another boat, so to speak. Whether that process starts after the bye week or at the end of the season, it doesnt change the fact that this ship is sinking under Zorns leadership. Hiring him as HC was one of the biggest mistakes this franchsise has made in its history. Staying the course any longer than necessary won't change that fact. Someone else will be coaching the skins in 2010. We can either start laying the groundwork for that now, or wait until the seasons over and "blow everything up." It needs to happen. Its going to happen. Staying the course is not an option.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=skinsfan_nn;603859]You must be kidding, this team and coaching staff are lost. If not where exactly do you see this progress?

If the SKINS stay this course this is a massive train wreck any or should I say EVERY Sunday.[/quote]

I remember when the Redskins couldn't move the ball against anyone much less score. Now they can move the ball, they still can't score.

Going back to 04 the Washington Redskins have improved in Total offensive yards every season until last year. With the slight decline comming because of the changing of the offensive scheme. Right now the Skins are averaging more offensive yards this year than any in the Joe Gibbs 2.0. The points per game have been terrible since 2004 and have been on the decline since 2005. So while we are seeing an increase of offensive production in terms of yardage we are still lacking in the scoring department. In other words there is improvement it just hasn't translated into points and wins yet.

2004 YPG (274) PPG (15)
2005 YPG (330) PPG (22.4)
2006 YPG (327) PPG (19.2)
2007 YPG (334) PPG (20.9)
2008 YPG (320) PPG (16.6)
2009 YPG (352) PPG (14)


To answer your question I am not joking.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=firstdown;603838]I've seen progress moving the ball but like you said not in scoring which will lead to those wins. The toughest place to run any system is in the red zone and thats where I see our biggest problem and that is where the timing is most crucial. If they can improve on that then those losses we have had are wins.[/quote]

Agreed. JC wasn't given the chance to get the team in the end zone twice against the rams, even though he'd moved the team down the field to get them in the red zone.

Just imagine this; v. Rams: Sellers & Thomas catch those td passes v. the rams they dropped AND Orakpo wasn't called for a personal foul which negated a fumble recovery at about the 15. The game is a blow out, not even counting the Hb option play & CP getting stuffed on 4th down.

Detroit: CP either gets in from the 1 or JC makes a play for a td. Different ballgame.

These are just a few plays, which is what games come down to. But if these plays had gone well, I bet many would say that the Tampa game was just a bad half for JC & the offense.

My point is that there has been progress made w/the offense, but due to a few bad plays (drops, questionable play calls, JC throwing in traffic) there's nothing to show for it. It seems to me that most of the problems are perhaps greater than just correcting technical flaws. This team is in need of inspiration & confidence, maybe the 2nd half of tampa gave it to them?

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=firstdown;603821]We all talk about Snyder not showing any patients but what are all the fans now doing? When Zorn was hired all the talk was it takes 2 years for the O to learn and get down the timing of the WCO. Joe T. and others said over and over again it takes 2 years and fans need to be patient. We are 4 weeks into the season not even close to having two years in the system and now everyone is jumping ship. Just a thought.[/quote]


There's not a great deal of difference between the patience of Snyder and that of the FW fan. I've said it before, Snyder expects his HC to make bricks out of straw and won't even give him time to do that. An 8-8 finish for a first yr. head coach with a limited resume is not a horrible effort.

Rather than admit the team needs help in critical areas across the board, it's just so much easier to blame it on the coach. When things don't go well someone has to take the fall, right now the fall guy is Zorn, deserving or not.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;603864]Staying the course wouldnt have saved the Titanic from sinking and it won't help this team. At some point, its time to abandon ship and get on another boat, so to speak. Whether that process starts after the bye week or at the end of the season, it doesnt change the fact that this ship is sinking under Zorns leadership. Hiring him as HC was one of the biggest mistakes this franchsise has made in its history. Staying the course any longer than necessary won't change that fact. Someone else will be coaching the skins in 2010. We can either start laying the groundwork for that now, or wait until the seasons over and "blow everything up." It needs to happen. Its going to happen. Staying the course is not an option.[/quote]

So you want to compare a cruise ship to a football team? I would rather use the stock market. You don't want to sell too quickly. The football team will never sink and be lost forever, a ship is most likely gone if it sinks. A football team can come back after a shitty performance, a boat...not so much. A stock can be doing very poorly one day and come back strong for a long time. The team hasn't totally matured under the WCO and Zorn, its too soon to cut our loses. I think you have to give a coach at least 4 years (except for a very few like Gibbs and Belichick). Don't start rambling about Tomlin and Gruden, those were Cowher's and Dungee's teams. But hey, what do I know, I am just a fan on a fan site.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=Angry;603878]So you want to compare a cruise ship to a football team? I would rather use the stock market. You don't want to sell too quickly. The football team will never sink and be lost forever a ship is most likely gone if it sinks. A football teams can come back after a shitty performance, a boat...not so much. A stock can be doing very poorly one day and come back strong for a long time. The team hasn't totally matured under the WCO and Zorn, its too soon to cut our loses. I think you have to give a coach at least 4 years (except for a very few like Gibbs and Belichick). Don't start rambling about Tomlin and Gruden, those were Cowher's and Dungee's teams. But hey, what do I know, I am just a fan on a fan site.[/quote]


I agree, but there's no way any coach is going to get four yrs. out of Snyder unless he get's the team to the payoffs each of those four yrs. and ultimately wins a championship. It matters less who the coach is, if the team does not make improvements coaches will just be a repeat performance.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

In today's NFL, how many coaches anywhere would get more than 3-4 years to get at least a playoff game? I'm not positive, but I would guess on average it's 3 years...and we're above average :)

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=SmootSmack;603897]In today's NFL, how many coaches anywhere would get more than 3-4 years to get at least a playoff game? I'm not positive, but I would guess on average it's 3 years...[B]and we're above average[/B] :)[/quote]


LOL. I guess it's all how you look at it. Our perception may be that we are above average but our performance over the past 10 years would say otherwise.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=SmootSmack;603897]In today's NFL, how many coaches anywhere would get more than 3-4 years to get at least a playoff game? I'm not positive, but I would guess on average it's 3 years...and we're above average :)[/quote]


Not many, and it explains why coaches are fired all the time. Good coaches have good players, or at least the players make the coach look good. Have you ever seen a bad coach coaching a good/winning team? It's more often than not the other way around.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=Redskin Warrior;603861][B]I think the true problem with us is before Lewis came on board yesterday who had experience in the WCO besides Zorn? I don't think anyone has therefore i'm not convinced all the coaches know what they are coaching.[/B] Other coaches bring in Cam Cameron, Dom Capers, Mike Nolan & etc. All previous coaches who had experience and know what they are doing.[/quote]

Good point. I have seen others point that out as well. I don't think this means the end of Jim Zorn. Maybe they just brought Lewis in to get a fresh perspective on things and to help coach up the coaches.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;603864][B]Staying the course wouldnt have saved the Titanic from sinking [/B] ...[/quote]

Interesting note I once learned. If the Titanic had changed it's course one minute earlier, or one minute later, the ship would have survived. I think earlier and they would have missed the iceberg, later and they would have rammed the front compartment which was sealed and would not have flooded the whole ship.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;603915]Interesting note I once learned. If the Titanic had changed it's course one minute earlier, or one minute later, the ship would have survived. I think earlier and they would have missed the iceberg, later and they would have rammed the front compartment which was sealed and would not have flooded the whole ship.[/quote]
Not to get off the point but if they would have changed course later wouldn't they have already hit the iceberg? [IMG]http://www.thewarpath.net/images/icons/icon10.gif[/IMG]

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=firstdown;603920]Not to get off the point but if they would have changed course later wouldn't they have already hit the iceberg? [IMG]http://www.thewarpath.net/images/icons/icon10.gif[/IMG][/quote]

Read what he wrote

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=Angry;603833]I think that there has been progress. It just hasn't translated into points and wins yet. If the Skins stay the course, they can get there.[/quote]

So are you saying the Skins are close?

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=SmootSmack;603923]Read what he wrote[/quote]

Well I have to take that 1 minute earlier would be one minute before they hit the iceberg and one minute later would have been one minute after they hit the iceberg. So what am I missing?

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=firstdown;603930]Well I have to take that 1 minute earlier would be one minute before they hit the iceberg and one minute later would have been one minute after they hit the iceberg. So what am I missing?[/quote]

Like he said, read what he wrote.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=12thMan;603926]So are you saying the Skins are close?[/quote]


If they can start scoring in the Redzone, then yes they are close.

[SIZE=2][/SIZE]

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

Just beat Dallas and Filthy and I'll be happy.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=firstdown;603920]Not to get off the point but if they would have changed course later wouldn't they have already hit the iceberg? [IMG]http://www.thewarpath.net/images/icons/icon10.gif[/IMG][/quote]

well I tried to find a link and I couldn't. I probably said it wrong before as well. If they spotted the iceberg one minute before, and changed course at that point then they would have missed the iceberg. If they spotted the iceberg one minute later, and thus changed course one minute later, they would have rammed the iceberg head on, and the front compartment seals would have kept the boat afloat either completely or long enough for the ship to be cleared properly (like i said I don't remember).

But because of when they saw it and reacted to it they were caught in mid turn, and tore the side open which was not sealed, and the water flooded the boat quickly and the tragedy resulted.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;603941]well I tried to find a link and I couldn't. I probably said it wrong before as well. If they spotted the iceberg one minute before, and changed course at that point then they would have missed the iceberg. If they spotted the iceberg one minute later, and thus changed course one minute later, they would have rammed the iceberg head on, and the front compartment seals would have kept the boat afloat either completely or long enough for the ship to be cleared properly (like i said I don't remember).

But because of when they saw it and reacted to it they were caught in mid turn, and tore the side open which was not sealed, and the water flooded the boat quickly and the tragedy resulted.[/quote]
Well now that makes more sense.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=firstdown;603821]We all talk about Snyder not showing any patients but what are all the fans now doing? When Zorn was hired all the talk was it takes 2 years for the O to learn and get down the timing of the WCO. Joe T. and others said over and over again it takes 2 years and fans need to be patient. We are 4 weeks into the season not even close to having two years in the system and now everyone is jumping ship. Just a thought.[/quote]

The WCO is fine but the playcalling is the problem. The same plays over and over again isn't going to work. Zorn's WCO/playcalling is the problem

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;603933]Just beat Dallas and Filthy and I'll be happy.[/quote]

is that once each or twice each? I'm trying to know if you need a 6-10 season to be satisfied or just 4-12.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=firstdown;603946]Well now that makes more sense.[/quote]

Actually, the titanic never sank. Its all a big conspiracy.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_conspiracy]Titanic alternative theories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

[quote][B]Gardiner's Ship That Never Sank[/B]
One of the most controversial[5][6] and complex theories was put forward by Robin Gardiner in his book, Titanic: The Ship That Never Sank?[7] In it, Gardiner draws on several events and coincidences that occurred in the months, days, and hours leading up to the sinking of the Titanic, and concludes that the ship that sank was in fact the Titanic's sister-ship RMS Olympic, disguised as the Titanic, as an insurance scam.[/quote]

And before you mock me and say anyone would be crazy to beleive that, just remember that "Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information."

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=Angry;603932]If they can start scoring in the Redzone, then yes they are close.

[SIZE=2][/SIZE][/quote]

But we don't so were not

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=Angry;603833]I think that there has been progress. It just hasn't translated into points and wins yet. If the Skins stay the course, they can get there.[/quote]

I'm with Angry on this one.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=SmootSmack;603823]Well it's not like at the end of two years you suddenly have learned it. The expectation is that you see progress over the course of a year and a half. Have we seen that progress?[/quote]

Maybe it's a Benjamin Buttons Offense that progresses in reverse. They start off good and then get worse and worse with each game. At the year 2 mark, they'll be averaging zero points a game.

Re: I Thought It Takes 2 Years To Learn The WCO
 

[quote=WaldSkins;603992]But we don't so were not[/quote]

And it's nothing new. They were the 4th worst team in the red zone last year. It's foolish to think they're going to somehow become a red zone juggernaut with the same players and coaches, especially when they play better Defenses. Defies logic, actually.