Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

I think this article by Mike Wise is a fantastic segue into a thread debating how our offseason aims may be changing a bit.

Highlights of [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/06/AR2009120602716.html"]the article:[/URL]

[I]Had they been blown out the past few weeks, the Redskins could have made this so easy on everyone. But instead, what the past few weeks have shown is that while the Redskins have obvious flaws, they also have redeemable parts, players who could have key roles on teams that won't just play spoiler roles in December. And for that to happen, huge decisions have to be made. Irrespective of how they gave back a 10-point lead in the final minutes, those decisions just got a lot tougher[/I].
[I]
Is Campbell the guy who finished with a better quarterback rating than Drew Brees on Sunday, who solved a defense that befuddled Tom Brady last Monday night? Or is he merely a shell-shocked warrior, who despite his durability doesn't have the moxie to lead a team to a Super Bowl?[/I]

[I]Is the Z-man the golly-gee flake that needed to have his play-calling duties transferred to a jobless Bingo caller in October? [/I]
[I] Or is he the coach who cared so much about his kids he purchased Blackalicious on iTunes so he could relate better -- the almost-masochistic coach who kept the team together amid utter chaos, whose promise of his players one day grasping his version of the West Coast offense is coming to amazing fruition?
[/I]

[I]Is Devin Thomas the league's next great, tippy-toe-along-the-sideline, mug-for-the-cameras wideout? Or is he a showboat with poor work habits?[/I]

It's interesting the way things are finishing out here this season.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

I'll say it again, we have to keep Campbell and rebuild the OL to make him successful. Say goodbye to Randy Thomas, Samuels (when he retires) Betts, Daniels, Griffin, Randle-El, Smoot, Suisham, Trade Landry for a 1st round pick.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;635827]I'll say it again, we have to keep Campbell and rebuild the OL to make him successful. Say goodbye to Randy Thomas, Samuels (when he retires) Betts, Daniels, Griffin, Randle-El, Smoot, Suisham, Trade Landry for a 1st round pick.[/quote]

I'd add Portis to your list of guys who need to go (if there's no new CBA of course).

No way we're getting a 1st for Landry right now.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=GMScud;635828]No way we're getting a 1st for Landry right now.[/quote]

If we had a GM who knows how to make a deal, then he is.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

Interesting tweet from Bill Barnwell @ Football Outsiders: Jason Campbell's game against NO picked up 275 DYAR, which not only was the best on the day, but was the third best passing DYAR of the entire season.

No. 1 and No. 2 were Drew Brees.

Basically, give him some WR and OL help, and this is what you get.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

So is Zorn still a sure-fire at the end of the season? Or are these Zorn coached and devised plays that are now being called by Sherm Lewis actually turning into a respectable offense? Coupled with a defense that can usually stay with any team in the league is a pretty nice combo if the tweaks get worked out

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

Get some quality o-line help, a good young RB, switch Landry to SS or trade him and we may have a winner next year. I'm not sure at this point where we'll fall in the draft, but it's important that we make the most of it. Whether it's Blaches defensive philosophy or the lack of talent on this defense I don't know, but some changes need to be made. If we stay the course with our coaching staff, next year would be the "magical" 3rd year in this offense. I think it's obvious that we're starting to grasp things better than we have in the past. On the whole, this offense is playing much better.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

I still think we need to draft a qb soon, but jc has played very well lately so we can't just cut him after the season. It also depends on our next coach of course

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;635827]I'll say it again, we have to keep Campbell and rebuild the OL to make him successful. Say goodbye to Randy Thomas, Samuels (when he retires) Betts, Daniels, Griffin, Randle-El, Smoot, Suisham, Trade Landry for a 1st round pick.[/quote] About Campbell...again he played very well. I really don't see anyone in this draft ahead or free agent that could be better. That's that rock and a hard spot that the Redskins will be in come spring of 2o10!

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=53Fan;635840]Get some quality o-line help, a good young RB, switch Landry to SS or trade him and we may have a winner next year. I'm not sure at this point where we'll fall in the draft, but it's important that we make the most of it. Whether it's Blaches defensive philosophy or the lack of talent on this defense I don't know, but some changes need to be made. If we stay the course with our coaching staff, next year would be the "magical" 3rd year in this offense. I think it's obvious that we're starting to grasp things better than we have in the past. On the whole, this offense is playing much better.[/quote] We could be as high as 5th but a win or two could move us out of the top 10...remember we have no 3rd round pick!

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

I started thinking about this last week. The skins are making it more and more difficult to dismantle this team. I think Snyder feels media pressure to clean house no matter what. Which will leave us exactly where we have been the last decade......starting over.

Personally, I feel we are on the brink of being very good with a little more time. Someone will have to be fired though and im sure Zorn will be one of those. I certainly think he isn't cut out to be a head coach and appears clueless quite often. I just cant see anyway to prevent starting over and enduring 3-4 more years of this unless someone is promoted from within. I certainly hope this happens rather then rebuilding this team once again.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;635830]If we had a GM who knows how to make a deal, then he is.[/quote]
More like if we find a stupid GM on another team? We'd have to make a package of another pick or two or another pretty decent player to get a 1st for Landry.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

A new coach is definitely going to mean significant changes, especially at QB. I'm almost starting to wish we could just keep Zorn and make Sherman Lewis the full-time OC/play-caller, build up the OL, keep JC, and go from there.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;635890]A new coach is definitely going to mean significant changes, especially at QB. I'm almost starting to wish we could just keep Zorn and make Sherman Lewis the full-time OC/play-caller, build up the OL, keep JC, and go from there.[/quote]

Man I don't like to seem like i'm sucking up.... but I agree 100% this seem's like, this is turning out pretty damn well, giving the circumstances. but Matty, we need a new GM, that's the only thing, if thing's do workout, that can save all of them right now.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;635890]A new coach is definitely going to mean significant changes, especially at QB. I'm almost starting to wish we could just keep Zorn and make Sherman Lewis the full-time OC/play-caller, build up the OL, keep JC, and go from there.[/quote]

This is exactly what I was going to say. If possible, add some draft picks with

[quote=SFREDSKIN;635827] Say goodbye to Randy Thomas, Samuels (when he retires) Betts, Daniels, Griffin, Randle-El, Smoot, Suisham, Trade Landry for a 1st round pick.[/quote]

with your powers combined...

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

I was telling Daseal and Gmanc the same thing yesterday. I think we just needed to get the OL settled a bit and do plays that cater to Campbell's strengths.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=johno;635899]with your powers combined...[/quote]

[IMG]http://thepointofitall.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/captainplanet.jpg[/IMG] [SIZE=7]???[/SIZE]

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

Captain Planet!!! WOW!!!

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

I do think that alot of the older players need to go. VC needs to go. I'm starting to come around on the team a little though. Maybe a heavy tweaking is what we need. I'm still not sold on Jim Zorn. He just doesn't seem to call the right plays when it's his time to call the right plays, seemingly.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

WR - check
QB - check
RB - (add a young gun keep Portis never get rid fo a war horse)
OL - focus of acquisitions
TE - check
DL - check
LB - (add a young stud)
CB - Barnes play more, like Tryon's development, Darrell Green did a good job, bring him in as CB coach.
S - check - coaching is the issue

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

This is the challenge we seem to face every year. We always believe we're just around the corner. And when you look around the league it's not hard to think that.

Still, I think now is as good a time to make some tough decisions. I'd start by moving on from Jason Campbell. I like him and think he'll be a good to great QB in the NFL. Still, it doesn't look like a long-term commitment is in the cards for either side. And with so many QBs available in the draft this year it seems to make the most sense to move forward now.

Great thread

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

Well if you draft a QB who Qbs in the interim? Until Bradford or whoever starts looking good. I don't see a great QB in this years draft. I am sorry. Then at that point you have a QB but need everything else to go along with it, you rebuilding again. The team will be good around that QB's 5th or 6th year, with a small 2 year window for the Super Bowl.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;635930] The team will be good around that QB's 5th or 6th year, with a small 2 year window for the Super Bowl.[/quote]
I am not certain how you come to this conclusion.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;635890]A new coach is definitely going to mean significant changes, especially at QB. I'm almost starting to wish we could just keep Zorn and make Sherman Lewis the full-time OC/play-caller, build up the OL, keep JC, and go from there.[/quote]

Slow down a little bit there.. Yes the Lewis play calling change has been an unquestioned positive move, let's also remember that this combo is 1-5. Zorn still has glaring weaknesses as a head coach (clock management, decisions on when to be aggressive vs. conservative, etc.) that will likely continue to cost us. Let's also remember that Lewis is 67 and may not want to have a full time OC job anymore.

I am 50/50 on Campbell returning. I think he's got the tools to be a solid, not great, QB in the league. Protect him well, give him weapons and he can win you 10 games a year. If things around him start to fall apart, he's not going to be able to lift the entire offense on his back however so the next coach should examine if that's something he can live with. I honestly don't think there is a better QB who will be available on the free agent/trade market but I also don't see him coming back if we draft a QB in the 1st round either.

I'm loving what I've been seeing from Thomas the past few weeks. He's starting to show ability and more importantly, consistency. If he can continue to develop, Kelly keeps coming on, Mitchell keeps coming on, we can move Moss into the slot (imagine him in a Welker role?) and can finally have a strong WR group.

On defense, if we replace Rogers and move Landry to SS then I will be quite happy in 2010.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=Paintrain;635951]Slow down a little bit there.. Yes the Lewis play calling change has been an unquestioned positive move, let's also remember that this combo is 1-5. Zorn still has glaring weaknesses as a head coach (clock management, decisions on when to be aggressive vs. conservative, etc.) that will likely continue to cost us. Let's also remember that Lewis is 67 and may not want to have a full time OC job anymore.[/quote]

I know it's unlikely to happen, Sherm was brought in as a band-aid and not much else. But it just seems that once we start to see a glimmer of what could be, we're going to blow it all up again. But at the end of the day you are what your record says you are, and at 3-9 changes are needed, probably drastic ones.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

I think that we should get a GM, keep Zorn, Lewis, Jason, add OL, RB, LB (to move Sackpo to DE), FS Landry is a SS keep him in the box & limited pass coverage. Get younger let Griffin, Daniels, Thomas, Samuels go.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

there is a ton of stuff that really pisses me off with Zorn. his clock management is god awful. the second half of yesterdays game was the first time in an eternity that skins had all of their timeouts left going late into the half/ game. the super conservative play calling leading up to Suisham's miss. yes, i know that's a chip shot. but why not try to score a touchdown? the stupid idea of trying to freeze the kicker with a timeout. almost cost us at the end of the half, when New Orleans brought their offense back onto the field. the list goes on and on

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

If you look at the schedule of games played this year this team has been in every game. The worst loss was to Atlanta by 14 points and that was when during the 1st half the team looked as if had quit, after the second half these team has been playing a lot better despite all the injuries, turmoil and last minute heartbreaking losses. It would be dumb to let Campbell walk, we should fire Vinny get another GM, keep Zorn as HC and Sherm Lewis as OC, promote Jerry Gray to DC, build the OL, draft a LB and RB and we are on our way.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

I am truly surprised at how many people want to keep a 3 win coach! Just because we're starting to resemble an NFL offense (once the play calling duties were stripped from said coach mind you) doesn't mean squat if we're still losing games! I don't want to 'blow it up' just for the sake of blowing it up but seriously, changes are needed.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

Who goes for me by trade, retire, or release. No personal feelings just business:
Todd Collins
Phillip Daniels
Malcolm Kelly
Marcus Mason
Anthony Montgomery
Fred Smoot
Antwaan Randle El
Carlos Rogers
Renaldo Wynn
Ladell Betts
Chris Samuels
Randy Thomas
Jim Zorn

Notable not on list:
Laron Landry- He is a great player out of position. We need a free safety to give us the opportunity to move him to his natural position.
Clinton Portis- I really would like to see how he would be in a real rotation and behind a decent oline, I'm not ready to give up on him yet. His "me-first" attitude and unwillingness to practice I am also willing to let him go though.
Santanna Moss- Has heart and could be a monster if he is shifted around the formations to create mismatches as well as the slot.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

I honestly want Rock starting at RB. He isn't going to break a seventy-yard touchdown run, but he always gets some tough yards and does shed some tackles. Still maybe draft a change-of-pace back in the later rounds of the draft, but after how this season has gone, it's amazing how just being "hungry" makes the team look a lot better with players that have something to prove.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;635974]If you look at the schedule of games played this year this team has been in every game. The worst loss was to Atlanta by 14 points and that was when during the 1st half the team looked as if had quit, after the second half these team has been playing a lot better despite all the injuries, turmoil and last minute heartbreaking losses. It would be dumb to let Campbell walk, we should fire Vinny get another GM, keep Zorn as HC and Sherm Lewis as OC, promote Jerry Gray to DC, build the OL, draft a LB and RB and we are on our way.[/quote]

I actually like this and would give it a chance.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

i think our secondary needs a huge overhaul, enough with the number 1 ranked pass d, the reason we have that is cause we have a great d line and solid pass rush, if we had better cb's we could get some turnovers, what do we have now 4 ints? tryon is looking good but he isn't a shut down corner and imo he is the closest thing we have to a starting cb besides d hall, and thats a joke. and unless we get a f-ing coach with some balls then landry will run around undisciplind making terrible plays and acting like a jackass, seriously when was the last time some one sat him down and showed him on tape how much he blows, they should make him watch his game film and then his brothers maybe he could learn somthing

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;635988]I honestly want Rock starting at RB. He isn't going to break a seventy-yard touchdown run, but he always gets some tough yards and does shed some tackles. Still maybe draft a change-of-pace back in the later rounds of the draft, but after how this season has gone, it's amazing how just being "hungry" makes the team look a lot better with players that have something to prove.[/quote]

I've always been a big CP fan but I think the past few weeks have shown that we can survive just fine with a rotation of guys like Betts, Rock, Ganther, etc.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;635986]Who goes for me by trade, retire, or release. No personal feelings just business:
Todd Collins
Phillip Daniels
[B][U]Malcolm Kelly[/U][/B]
Marcus Mason
Anthony Montgomery
Fred Smoot
Antwaan Randle El
Carlos Rogers
Renaldo Wynn
Ladell Betts
Chris Samuels
Randy Thomas
Jim Zorn

Notable not on list:
Laron Landry- He is a great player out of position. We need a free safety to give us the opportunity to move him to his natural position.
Clinton Portis- I really would like to see how he would be in a real rotation and behind a decent oline, I'm not ready to give up on him yet. His "me-first" attitude and unwillingness to practice I am also willing to let him go though.
Santanna Moss- Has heart and could be a monster if he is shifted around the formations to create mismatches as well as the slot.[/quote]
Why Kelly? What has he done that would require/justify him to be cut? Letting a guy go after 2 seasons?

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

Vinny Cerrato seems to get a lot of stick on virtually every thread yet at the same time most seem to agree we have a lot of good young players to look to the future with.

I had a quick look through the roster for guys that Cerrato has brought in during his 2 years in charge and have made a significant contribution already or promise to in the near future.

Kevin Barnes
Fred Davis
Quinton Ganther
DeAngelo Hall
Albert Haynesworth
Chris Horton
Jeremy Jarmon
Levi Jones
Malcolm Kelly
Marko Mitchell
Brian Orakpo
Chad Rinehart
Hunter Smith
Devin Thomas
Justin Tryon
Mike Williams

That's not a bad group in my opinion.

Does he get unfair stick?

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=davy;636018]Vinny Cerrato seems to get a lot of stick on virtually every thread yet at the same time most seem to agree we have a lot of good young players to look to the future with.

I had a quick look through the roster for guys that Cerrato has brought in during his 2 years in charge and have made a significant contribution already or promise to in the near future.

Kevin Barnes
Fred Davis
Quinton Ganther
DeAngelo Hall
Albert Haynesworth
Chris Horton
Jeremy Jarmon
Levi Jones
Malcolm Kelly
Marko Mitchell
Brian Orakpo
Chad Rinehart
Hunter Smith
Devin Thomas
Justin Tryon
Mike Williams

That's not a bad group in my opinion.

Does he get unfair stick?[/quote]

He's done a decent job but one minor detail, he forgot to address the OL during his tenure. Hell, he even forgot to address the DL before this past off season when Haynesworth, Orakpo and Jarmon were brought in. He might have an eye for talent but his priorities are skewed.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

I've never been a big CP fan and not only do I think we can survive without him, I think we can thrive without him. He's a me player not a team player and teams win championships. I've always thought his diva attitude with not practicing and throwing his team mates and coaches under the bus has been vastly underrated as to how detrimental it is to the team. But...that's just my opinion.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=GMScud;635828]I'd add Portis to your list of guys who need to go (if there's no new CBA of course).

[B]No way we're getting a 1st for Landry right now.[/B][/quote]

I bet we could get at least a 2nd from Oakland. Serious.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;635974]If you look at the schedule of games played this year this team has been in every game. The worst loss was to Atlanta by 14 points and that was when during the 1st half the team looked as if had quit, after the second half these team has been playing a lot better despite all the injuries, turmoil and last minute heartbreaking losses. It would be dumb to let Campbell walk, we should fire Vinny get another GM, keep Zorn as HC and Sherm Lewis as OC, promote Jerry Gray to DC, build the OL, draft a LB and RB and we are on our way.[/quote]

I actually was thinking of something like this after the Saints game.. The players are finally responding to Zorn; it's probably because Zorn has less responsibilities to do and then he's able to do his job better now.. Although Zorn still has ways to go such as making decisions on play callings and such, but he's only 2nd year coach and looking on his resume; we are asking a lot from Zorn.. Zorn is being enriched with experiences and it will help.. I believe with new GM, and keep some of coaches intact.. We would be better team next year, assuming the new GM doesn't blow up the team..

It might would be good idea to keep Lewis as OC next year but we definitely need to find a guy for Lewis to mentor so that guy could become OC next season when Lewis is gone..

Edit: I'm somewhat unsure of the idea of promoting Gray to DC.. I used to advocate it but now, I'm not so sure anymore, especially after the Laron Landry's performance.. If I recall right, it was Gray's idea to bench Rogers after he let two big plays in Broncos game.. Why didn't Gray decide to bench Landry when he let two big plays, especially the one that basically cost us the game? I want our head coach (Zorn), OC (Lewis), and DC (either Gray or whoever else) to force the players to take responsible for their errors..