Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

I always read on this site about next year's QB and line needing to be worked out... which I agree with... Our offensive line is a MAJOR need...

but...

Isn't cornerback going to be just as big a need to address as OL in the offseason??

If Rogers goes, which he very likely will, we will have D Hall and who else?? Tryon?? Smoot?? Westbrook?? Those 3 aren't good enough to be trusted to play nickel, much less 2nd starter.

We need TWO corners who are step ups from those 3 for sure.

I'm thinking the team COULD surprise everyone and go with a guy like CB Joe Hayden out of Florida with the first pick in the draft and draft linemen with the rest. (I mean no one knows).

I'd rather get a corner through FA and draft line, line, line... but the point is we HAVE TO HAVE a starting CB in 2010 opposite D. Hall....

and I'm sure Bruce Allen knows this after he took copious notes on our pass defense (or lack-thereof) against the G-Men.

[B][U]EDIT:[/U][/B] I left out Kevin Barnes ... but considering he hasn't seen the field this year over Smoot or Tryon... ummm ... I have no clue what he can contribute

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

Rogers will probably be in the same boat as Campbell. Restricted Free Agent. So even if he does leave, hopefully we'll tender him and get some compensation.

But anyway, you forgot Kevin Barnes, who (hard as is it to believe right now) can be a starting DB for us.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

No... With our defensive line (and a new, more aggressive defensive coordinator), we'll be fine with Hall, Barnes, and Tryon as our #1, #2, and nickle corners.

We'll be a disaster without atleast 2 new offensive line starters.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

Depends on who is coaching the Defense and what type of scheme we use.

If we are going to continue with this weak ass cover two that teams are exploiting then we just need any corner really...

If we want to play an aggressive bump and run with single coverage then we will need to bring in some talent.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

honestly i think tryon will most likely be starting opposite d hall, he has made improvments much to my surprise. and i think he along with others just need a real coach inplace and we could see vast improvement.

and let's hope barnes works out as well we did draft him in the thrid round so i really hope he pans out, he seems like another guy with the ability he just needs coaching and discipline

and with our pass rush and hopefully having orakpo on the line full time next year hopefully our db's won't have to be top notch, this rebuilding is gonna take a while and i think cb's won't be on the first list of thing to do, atleast i hope not

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

Kevin Barnes/Edwin Williams...relatively similar prospectus. The only difference is that you need two CBs, and five OLman. The only reason the OL is more dire is because there's a glaring lack of functional pieces. You look at our secondary, and you would say that they're not very good, but Hall will be playing somewhere in it next year, Landry as well, and there's some pieces in free agency we could grab to solidify it.

Corner is a pretty big need, but I think we're much more likely to sit on what they have than at OL, where we don't have anything.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

No, championships are won moreso with O and D lines and QB's. Can't build a franchise around a CB IMO.

Denver isn't winning any superbowls just because they have Champ Bailey.

I believe NE went to a superbowl with a receiver filling in at CB (Troy Brown??)

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

Anyone else see Tryon get torched the other night? And realize Barnes hasn't been trusted in practice to play over Tryon or Smoot?

I mean Barnes is a complete unknown at this point, and Tryon is a very undersized, no CHANCE on big receivers (remember castoff Kelly Washington OWNING him in preseason simply due to size?) and to top it off, isn't disciplned (completely forgetting outside contain on the TD the other night when his help was to the inside).

I guess I'm saying that CB is as important or at least 1.5 on our top 5 list of needs for 2010...

Like I said, I am hoping draft is line, line, line, but we HAVE to address CB somewhere because if Tryon or Barnes is our #2... oh boy...

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

I will agree the CB position does need to be addressed. We can't do everything that needs to be done in one offseason. We have to ask ourselves which positions' of need are the most important. I'm of the opinion the OL is the most important group on the team therefore I'm partial. We're not going to draft all linemen and CB is a need, so I look for them to go there either in the draft or free agency.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

Dub, I think Tryon definitely has made improvements but he seems to do best in that nickle role. I don't know that he'd be starting on purpose

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

Our bigest problem this year has been the big plays which I think we could fit in house.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=mlmdub130;645266][B]honestly i think tryon will most likely be starting opposite d hall[/B], he has made improvments much to my surprise. and i think he along with others just need a real coach inplace and we could see vast improvement.

and let's hope barnes works out as well we did draft him in the thrid round so i really hope he pans out, he seems like another guy with the ability he just needs coaching and discipline

and with our pass rush and hopefully having orakpo on the line full time next year hopefully our db's won't have to be top notch, this rebuilding is gonna take a while and i think cb's won't be on the first list of thing to do, atleast i hope not[/quote]This has a really decent chance of happening, and frankly, it's depressing. There wouldn't be a worse tandem in the league than D-Hall and Tryon.

Fortunately, I think Barnes will work out. I'd like to see Barnes and Rogers be given a chance to play across from each other with Hall as a swingman between safety and corner, and Tryon playing the dime. It would allow us to go back to the aggressive man scheme that Hall (and Tryon) can't play, and it would make our defense fun to watch again.

We might move Rogers as opposed to signing him, which would be totally justified at the moment, but the hole opposite of Barnes would be inevitable. Then again, if we commit all of our resources to building on the offensive line, and we can shove the ball down the opponents throat, I don't care if we go 9-7 while losing 36-33 barnburners for a year. At least it would be entertaining.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

I honestly can't put any other position above or on par with the OL as far as needs go.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

Can we all agree that Smoot is gone, or a non-factor? I think he's still trying to find where Hakeem Nicks went on that 20 yard dig route.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

I'd put RB before DB. Portis, Betts, Cartwright, Mason, and Ganther could conceivably all be gone

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

Someone call Blache and tell him to throw Barnes & Tryon out there Sunday and see how it goes... lol

Honestly... we better see more of Barnes over the next 2 games to evaluate him for 2010. I haven't noticed him on the field barely at all this year.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;645284]Can we all agree that Smoot is gone, or a non-factor? I think he's still trying to find where Hakeem Nicks went on that 20 yard dig route.[/quote]

You know what? F***you! F*** you and the horse you rode in on...

Sigh...Smoot's given it his all for nearly a decade now but it's time for him to go. Though I think we might get one more year out of him

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;645285]I'd put RB before DB. Portis, Betts, Cartwright, Mason, and Ganther could conceivably all be gone[/quote]Yeah, but if the next coach ends up being Shanahan, the undrafted free agents he brings in will be expected to produce in those roles. And I think Portis will be back, in a limited capacity.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

Think about our division as well...

NYG: Steve Smith, Manningham, & Nicks to cover
DAL: Austin & R Williams to cover
PHI: Jackson & Maclin to cover

I mean... has Barnes or Tryon PROVEN they can cover any of those #2s?

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

I think that some of our guys are young enough that they can still be coached up and they definitely need to put that work in during the offseason. However I wouldn't mind going the NE route and getting a guy towards the end of his career that isn't too expensive. If we draft we need to draft one early, we have enough project CBs, but I think that we have other glaring needs that need to be addressed early.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

In the secondary, I think Free Safety should be looked at as a bigger need over CB. I think its time to put Laron at Strong and look at a vet at Free to compete with Moore. Laron play has induced its fair share of bitchin this year. Oline is far, far above the biggest need on this team. The other night was an absolute nightmare, and maybe the worst showing by our line this year.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;645289]You know what? F***you! F*** you and the horse you rode in on...

Sigh...Smoot's given it his all for nearly a decade now but it's time for him to go. Though I think we might get one more year out of him[/quote]LOL.

Watching him try to play the last two years has just been depressing. I've completely forgotten the second half of the 2007 season, when he was inexplicably great in Sean's absence. We really should have thanked him and put him out to pasture at the end of last year, as there's no reason that Westbrook couldn't get burned exactly the same way Smoot is.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=Chico23231;645294]In the secondary, I think Free Safety should be looked at as a bigger need over CB. I think its time to put Laron at Strong and look at a vet at Free to compete with Moore. Laron play has induced its fair share of bitchin this year. Oline is far, far above the biggest need on this team. The other night was an absolute nightmare, and maybe the worst showing by our line this year.[/quote]Obligatory Ryan Clark reference.

Clark and Hall at FS for us next year!

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;645256]I always read on this site about next year's QB and line needing to be worked out... which I agree with... Our offensive line is a MAJOR need...

but...

Isn't cornerback going to be just as big a need to address as OL in the offseason??

If Rogers goes, which he very likely will, we will have D Hall and who else?? Tryon?? Smoot?? Westbrook?? Those 3 aren't good enough to be trusted to play nickel, much less 2nd starter.

We need TWO corners who are step ups from those 3 for sure.

I'm thinking the team COULD surprise everyone and go with a guy like CB Joe Hayden out of Florida with the first pick in the draft and draft linemen with the rest. (I mean no one knows).

I'd rather get a corner through FA and draft line, line, line... but the point is we HAVE TO HAVE a starting CB in 2010 opposite D. Hall....

and I'm sure Bruce Allen knows this after he took copious notes on our pass defense (or lack-thereof) against the G-Men.


[B][U]EDIT:[/U][/B] I left out Kevin Barnes ... but considering he hasn't seen the field this year over Smoot or Tryon... ummm ... I have no clue what he can contribute[/quote]

I have to disagree with your sentiments here. This does not mean that you do not have a legitimate argument. I just do not see things the same way that you do. First, I will start by saying that we have been pampered here in Washington with very good DB play though it may not always seem that way. Over the years 75-100% of our starting defensive backs were selected in the first round. Some games they have looked good and some days they have looked not so good, but it is rare that they absolutely look terrible or not so good on a consistent basis. Even this season we have been ranked first or near the top in pass defense.

As far as Rogers is concerned I would not be too worried if he leaves. At one point this season he was benched and we did not miss him. Tyon has really been comming on strong lately and Barnes is still in his first year. These guys will develop. As long as the pass rush stays like it is their should not be that much drop off in production.

I am not saying that we avoid taking DB's but there are much more glaring needs. I would even be so bold as to say that we have a bigger hole or need at Linebacker than we do in the secondary. The bottom line is that the team will never be 100% solid from top to bottom, but we can operate efficiently with what we have at DB, but it is obvious that we cannot with what we have on the offensive line.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

just think about what our d-line did for our cb's this year. we had the number one pass d in the nfl for a while and it sure as shit wasn't because of our secondary

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;645291]Yeah, but if the next coach ends up being Shanahan, the undrafted free agents he brings in will be expected to produce in those roles. And I think Portis will be back, in a limited capacity.[/quote]

Maybe Shanahan could sign [url=http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports-blog/index.ssf/2009/08/former_ohio_state_football_sta.html]this[/url] former back of his this spring...or wait a couple of years and target this former back of [url=http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/07/16/travis-henry-gets-3-years-on-cocaine-trafficking-charges/]his[/url]

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;645289]You know what? F***you! F*** you and the horse you rode in on...

Sigh...Smoot's given it his all for nearly a decade now but it's time for him to go. Though I think we might get one more year out of him[/quote]

we got one more year for sure he just needs to have two of these before each game instead of his regular one

[url=http://www.smackenergybar.com/v2/]Fred Smoot's Smack Energy Bar[/url]

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=mlmdub130;645299]just think about what our d-line did for our cb's this year. we had the number one pass d in the nfl for a while and it sure as shit wasn't because of our secondary[/quote]

I do not think that you are giving the secondary the credit that they deserve. They have played lights out at times. Everyone just wants to focus on the double moves that went for big plays, but no one ever talks about the batted balls, coverage sacks, and balls jarred loose from punishing hits in the secondary.

I would venture to say that if our record was 10-4 that no one would be complaining about this secondary having the same stats. We would still be bitching however, that our QB was taking too many hits.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=Angry;645307]I do not think that you are giving the secondary the credit that they deserve. They have played lights out at times. Everyone just wants to focus on the double moves that went for big plays, but no one ever talks about the batted balls, coverage sacks, and balls jarred loose from punishing hits in the secondary.

[B]I would venture to say that if our record was 10-4 that no one would be complaining about this secondary having the same stats. We would still be bitching however, that our QB was taking too many hits[/B].[/quote]

which is why we need to go o-line because we could have easily gone 10-4 and really should have considering our first 7 games or so, but didn't because our offense has shit the bed this year, mainly due to our line

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;645302]Maybe Shanahan could sign [URL="http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports-blog/index.ssf/2009/08/former_ohio_state_football_sta.html"]this[/URL] former back of his this spring...or wait a couple of years and target this former back of [URL="http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/07/16/travis-henry-gets-3-years-on-cocaine-trafficking-charges/"]his[/URL][/quote]Yeah, if he goes after LeGarrette Blount, I'll be worried.

You're speaking to the president of the "Shanahan can't draft" club. But even though he misses on a lot of picks, the running backs who PLAY always perform.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

I guess I am one of the only people on here that is completely NOT a Tryon fan. In my opinion, he is too undersized and plays with too poor of technique to make up for his above-average speed.

If a defense wanted to... they could go after and torch him all day...

I guess that where my thinking that CB is a big need comes from. Looks like many around here think of Tryon as having some quality...

I hope you all are right!! To me.... he'd be similar to Leigh Torrence (yeah I said it) as a starting CB.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;645285]I'd put RB before DB. Portis, Betts, Cartwright, Mason, and Ganther could conceivably all be gone[/quote]

Agreed. I also agree about the OL mentioned above.

If Rogers and Smoot are gone, they will need replacing, though. So I think the defensive backfield needs attention. It is priority #3 in my mind, after OL and RB.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=Angry;645307]I do not think that you are giving the secondary the credit that they deserve. They have played lights out at times. Everyone just wants to focus on the double moves that went for big plays, but no one ever talks about the batted balls, coverage sacks, and balls jarred loose from punishing hits in the secondary.

I would venture to say that if our record was 10-4 that no one would be complaining about this secondary having the same stats. We would still be bitching however, that our QB was taking too many hits.[/quote]Was it against Matt Stafford or Matt Cassel we were playing lights out against?

The double moves have been the most glaring example of a greater problem: this is a zone coverage team that was never taught to play zone defense. Last year, during the 6-2 start, we were a man coverage team who would challenge receivers. We also faced some bad quarterbacks then, but rarely did we give up uncontested pass plays.

We haven't even competed in the secondary this year. The reason that no one ever talks about the batted balls, coverage sacks, and big hits is because they don't happen anymore.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

See... I'm also of the opinion that Ganther and Mason have shown enough to trust going into 2010.

I am actually VERY impressed with Ganther's running style... he does NOT go down easily and gets those finishing yards.

And with Shanahan's running style and an improved line? Why focus on a position where 7th rounders come in and avg 4.5 yds per carry every year??

And who said Portis is going anywhere?

RB is not a need in my mind.... just my 2 cents.

Even if Portis goes... which I really don't think he will... we could get one late in the draft... this is one area where Shanny has shown ability to scout.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;645314]Yeah, if he goes after LeGarrette Blount, I'll be worried.

You're speaking to the president of the "Shanahan can't draft" club. But even though he misses on a lot of picks, the running backs who PLAY always perform.[/quote]

Has Blount had any issues other than the punch? He might be worth a look late in the draft or if he goes undrafted. I'd prefer if he's an UDFA though since he didn't exactly come back strong despite practicing with the team the whole time.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

Ganther and Mason have played--er, run--well, but they also represent freely available talent. Whoever is the next coach will have his own Mason and Ganther, who aren't the same person, but do the exact same thing for the exact same cost. Rock, on the other hand, would need to have his special teams ability replaced, but his running ability is freely available.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=tryfuhl;645325]Has Blount had any issues other than the punch? He might be worth a look late in the draft or if he goes undrafted. I'd prefer if he's an UDFA though since he didn't exactly come back strong despite practicing with the team the whole time.[/quote]I don't think he has. I'm just pointing out that he's a douchebag.

If he's a scheme fit, and he doesn't cost anything, then he can be a douchebag who scores 8 TDs for my team. But those are the kind of guys that you have to be right on, and SmootSmack was pointing out that Shanahan has brought these guys in, and then found out they couldn't play at a later time.

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

I personally think Ganther could be a diamond in the rough kind of guy in a Shanahan running scheme... just like T. Davis, Portis, M. Anderson, O. Gary, R. Droughns, T. Bell, etc.

But yeah... the point is ... we DEFINITELY need a QUALITY cornerback FAR MORE than Running Back

And I guess another good question (possibly for another thread) is how much credit does Shanahan get for drafting those guys mentioned?

Clarett was an idiot, not a bad runner... and Henry was a traded for idiot. The question is... Isn't Shanahan damn good at evaluating RBs who fit his scheme?? (like I said... off-subject... but would make for an interesting debate)

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;645256]I always read on this site about next year's QB and line needing to be worked out... which I agree with... Our offensive line is a MAJOR need...

but...

Isn't cornerback going to be just as big a need to address as OL in the offseason??

If Rogers goes, which he very likely will, we will have D Hall and who else?? Tryon?? Smoot?? Westbrook?? Those 3 aren't good enough to be trusted to play nickel, much less 2nd starter.

We need TWO corners who are step ups from those 3 for sure.

I'm thinking the team COULD surprise everyone and go with a guy like CB Joe Hayden out of Florida with the first pick in the draft and draft linemen with the rest. (I mean no one knows).

I'd rather get a corner through FA and draft line, line, line... but the point is we HAVE TO HAVE a starting CB in 2010 opposite D. Hall....

and I'm sure Bruce Allen knows this after he took copious notes on our pass defense (or lack-thereof) against the G-Men.

[B][U]EDIT:[/U][/B] I left out Kevin Barnes ... but considering he hasn't seen the field this year over Smoot or Tryon... ummm ... I have no clue what he can contribute[/quote]

Sure. Why not just replace the whole O-line with matadors? Better yet, instead of uniforms we could give them door mats to wear. Wearing the negative six (-06) door mat, stephanie heyer. BOOOOOOO!

Re: Isn't Cornerback as Big a Need as OL?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;645327]I don't think he has. I'm just pointing out that he's a douchebag.

If he's a scheme fit, and he doesn't cost anything, then he can be a douchebag who scores 8 TDs for my team. But those are the kind of guys that you have to be right on, and SmootSmack was pointing out that Shanahan has brought these guys in, and then found out they couldn't play at a later time.[/quote]

Yeah, the punch didn't bother me all that much because Hout was being a HUGE douchebag the whole game. If that happened with helmets on it wouldn't be any different than what we saw Monday night. The part that bothered me was his continued anger when he was being escorted away.