Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

Let me post this now - - before Jim Zorn is fired early next week and we all begin to fantasize about how wonderful things will be under the new regime starting with free agent signings and going all the way through the Super Bowl in Feb 2011 where the Redskins will surely be favored by at least 2 TDs. I don’t want anyone complaining that all I want to do is rain on a parade.

The Redskins need an extreme makeover. This roster is insufficient when it comes to talent and depth. This coaching staff is insufficient when it comes to creativity and motivational skills. This front office - - or at least the one under the now departed EVP - - was insufficient. The likelihood that all of those insufficiencies will be corrected and that all of the new folks brought in here will blossom immediately into huge success figures is remote. This is gonna take time folks; gird yourself for it; this team is significantly worse than the one at the end of the “Spurrier Era”.

What I would like for folks to focus on is an area of the football operation here that seems not to have come under sufficient scrutiny in the past year or so. That would be the scouting department.

Look, I think Vinny Cerrato is a football goofball; I shed nary a tear when he left town and I sincerely hope that he will NOT get a “consulting contract” with the Redskins or any kind of “advisory position” with Danny Boy. [B]But don’t rule that out…[/B]

Having said that I think Cerrato is a football goofball, I am sure that he is not the only person in the organization who worked at evaluating college and pro players who ought to be brought to the team for evaluation on the practice/playing field. Even if Cerrato was the guy who made the final call on draft day the last few years, he did not pull the list of potential players out of his own head without the input of others. When he went around to sign free agents or scour other teams “culls” to bring someone in for an evaluation to fill a roster hole, he had to have input from someone else.

So, who was it in the scouting department who created the input that led to some of these decisions:
[INDENT]1. Chad Rinehart could play OG well enough that the Skins should spend a 3rd round pick on him. I’ve seen him play in about 3 games and have seen no sparks of brilliance from him. Which scout saw what games in college that led to Rinehart being on the list as a potential third-rounder?

2. Wil Montgomery was an NFL-caliber offensive lineman. Two words jump to mind here - - can't play.

3. Devin Thomas was a better football player than Desean Jackson. I know there were “character issues” around Jackson on draft day; and if that is why the Skins took Thomas over Jackson, that’s fine with me. But if any of the scouts made notes saying that Jackson was the inferior player, I’d want to consider finding a new scout for that region of the country.

4. D’Anthony Batiste was an NFL-caliber offensive lineman. Have you seen enough of this guy? I have.

5. C.J. Brooks, Paul Fanaika, William Robinson - - you get the picture.

6. DeAngelo Hall was worth $20M+ guaranteed as a cornerback. Remember, he was jettisoned by the Raiders in mid-season because he was too big a pain in the ass there to keep around. How spectacular were the Raiders in 2008 that they could just throw away a stud cornerback? I seem to recall that the Raiders stunk in 2008...

7. Kevin Huntley was going to be a quality DE in the NFL - - it’s been 3 years now…[/INDENT]

The point is that the new GM or President of Football Operations or Grand Wizard of Football who comes in here has to depend on his scouting staff to a large degree because there are not enough hours in a year for that person to evaluate all of the players that need evaluating. And if the scouting staff is missing good players and identifying stiffs, then maybe part of the housecleaning has to be in that wing of the building.

I promise you will hear nothing from the podium when Danny Boy introduces his next victim - - I mean head coach - - about how the failures of the personnel department in the past led to the situation that the new guy is here to fix. But, that is potentially a HUGE part of the problem and we will have to take it as an article of faith that Danny Boy and the new guy have figured that out. For the record, I don’t think Danny Boy has that figured out at all…

Why did I call the next head coach a victim? Consider this:
[INDENT]Since Danny Boy bought the team and inherited Norv Truner as his coach, he has had one interim coach and four permanent head coaches since firing Norv. [B]Not a single one of them has ever coached another NFL game once Danny Boy fired them[/B].[/INDENT]

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

A few thoughts:

- your posts are rather "rantish" today.Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? did you eat something thats upsetting your intestinal tract? have you suffered a severe head trauma?

- I noticed the url in your sig. why did the internet let you have a website?

- Devin Thomas is tall and we already had 2 starting smurfish WRs. DeShean Jackson isnt. Cerrato said on his radio show prior to the 2008 draft, the team was very impressed with Jackson but he just didnt fit the teams needs (tall posession receiver) at the time.

- you sure are criticizing alot of decisions on undrafted free agents. its not like they are generally accepted to become starting caliber players. otherwise, they would have, you know, been drafted.

- I dont think the scouting department has anything to do with deciding contract terms.

- Bruce Allen will make all contract decisions from now on.

- no scouting department is right 100% of the time. even the best teams in the NFL only hit on about 60% of their picks.

- since you don't like our scouting department, you might like this. we discussed it a couple of weeks ago in the shanahan thread.

[url=http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/12/17/shanahan-leading-candidate-for-redskins-coach-in-2010/]NFL.com Blogs » Blog Archive Redskins hiring Allen first move towards Shanahan? «[/url]

[quote] continue to hear from multiple league sources that Mike Shanahan remains the most likely choice to take over as the Washington Redskins’ head coach in 2010, and the hiring of Bruce Allen is but one move in an [B]organizational overhaul.[/B]...

...The Redskins will explore candidates to round out the front office in player-personnel roles, according to sources, with current personnel executives such as [B]Eric DeCosta [/B](Baltimore), [B]Bobby DePau[/B]l (Chicago) and [B]Doug Williams [/B](Tampa Bay) among possibilities. The Redskins came close to hiring DePaul to replace Cerrato twice during the Gibbs regime, according to sources, and DeCosta, a rising star as Ozzie Newsome’s top lieutenant with the Ravens, began his career with the Redskins. Williams won a Super Bowl as the Redskins’ quarterback and worked under Allen for the Buccaneers in personnel.

Snyder also has been impressed with the work of [B]Morocco Brown[/B], in his first season as Washington’s director of pro personnel, and he could be someone to remain in a revamped front office.

[/quote]

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

I'm not ready to praise or condemn any football decisions before they occur (as we could often do with Vinny) until I see the people in place and the structure. You have a point that Vinny wasn't operating in a vacuum and making all of those decisions independently but some of the Redskins FO personnel are highly regarded in the league like Morocco Brown and Scott Campbell. Your cautious tone is noted but see what develops before burying the new regime already.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;647893][B]I don’t want anyone complaining that all I want to do is rain on a parade.[/B][/quote]

You wouldn't be curmudgeon if you didn't :)

[quote]Look, I think Vinny Cerrato is a football goofball; I shed nary a tear when he left town and I sincerely hope that he will NOT get a “consulting contract” with the Redskins or any kind of “advisory position” with Danny Boy. [B]But don’t rule that out…[/B][/quote]

He won't be

[quote][INDENT]1. Chad Rinehart could play OG well enough that the Skins should spend a 3rd round pick on him. I’ve seen him play in about 3 games and have seen no sparks of brilliance from him. Which scout saw what games in college that led to Rinehart being on the list as a potential third-rounder?

2. Wil Montgomery was an NFL-caliber offensive lineman. Two words jump to mind here - - can't play.

3. Devin Thomas was a better football player than Desean Jackson. I know there were “character issues” around Jackson on draft day; and if that is why the Skins took Thomas over Jackson, that’s fine with me. But if any of the scouts made notes saying that Jackson was the inferior player, I’d want to consider finding a new scout for that region of the country.

4. D’Anthony Batiste was an NFL-caliber offensive lineman. Have you seen enough of this guy? I have.

5. C.J. Brooks, Paul Fanaika, William Robinson - - you get the picture.

6. DeAngelo Hall was worth $20M+ guaranteed as a cornerback. Remember, he was jettisoned by the Raiders in mid-season because he was too big a pain in the ass there to keep around. How spectacular were the Raiders in 2008 that they could just throw away a stud cornerback? I seem to recall that the Raiders stunk in 2008...

7. Kevin Huntley was going to be a quality DE in the NFL - - it’s been 3 years now…[/INDENT][/quote]

1. There were a lot of teams that saw Rinehart as a 3rd-4th round pick. Let's not close the book on him

2. Cerrato and the scouts signed Montgomery to a minimum risk contract to come in and compete with the many other linemen they brought in (it's what every single team in the NFL does). It's the coaching staff that decided to keep him on the roster

3. We're still bitching about this?

4. Feels like the 100th time I've told you, he's not on the roster

5. Chris Samuels injured, Randy Thomas injured, Chad Rinehart injured...you get the picture

6. The scouts have nothing to do with the players get paid

7. Kevin Huntley? Holy crap, you're really reaching now. You're blasting the scouting department for bringing in a mini-camp body?

[quote]
The point is that the new GM or President of Football Operations or Grand Wizard of Football who comes in here has to depend on his scouting staff to a large degree because there are not enough hours in a year for that person to evaluate all of the players that need evaluating. And if the scouting staff is missing good players and identifying stiffs, then maybe part of the housecleaning has to be in that wing of the building.

I promise you will hear nothing from the podium when Danny Boy introduces his next victim - - I mean head coach - - about how the failures of the personnel department in the past led to the situation that the new guy is here to fix. But, that is potentially a HUGE part of the problem and we will have to take it as an article of faith that Danny Boy and the new guy have figured that out. For the record, I don’t think Danny Boy has that figured out at all…[/quote]

There were changes to the scouting dept. when Vinny took over in 2008 and there certainly will be this off-season as well.

[quote][INDENT]Since Danny Boy bought the team and inherited Norv Truner as his coach, he has had one interim coach and four permanent head coaches since firing Norv. [B]Not a single one of them has ever coached another NFL game once Danny Boy fired them[/B].[/INDENT][/quote]

Marty Schottenheimer? Even Terry Robiskie did for a couple of games in Cleveland I believe

Mudge, in spite of your perpetual negativity I think you're a smart guy but this was your worst post ever

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

I WILL be disappointed if...........this coming season, the Skins are not significantly improved! We'll have to wait on the SB for now.
AND since we are sitting around speculating on the obvious shortcomings of our "dead FO walking", do you not think these things may have crossed Bruces mind?
AND, AND you do sound a little.......rantish (courtesy BHA) today

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

[quote=SmootSmack;647924]You wouldn't be curmudgeon if you didn't :)

[/quote]

I agree he definitely is a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

OMG. Is there no satisfying everyone? For years some of us have been wanting a rebuilding of the team. Me especially. I'm tired of the whole ..."next year is the year", "just one more player", "if we had player X we'd be a contender."

I'm actually looking at this as rebuild. I hope DS is. I hope other fans are and not getting all caught up again in the Allen and Shanahan will fix this whole mess and we will be SB bound next year. Maybe this is what your trying to say, but I'm expecting at least 3-5 years to get there. I just want us to look somewhat competative starting next year.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

Let me translate Mudges post:

OMG WTF! What if the problem with the franchise was the scouts? OMFG with a new GM we will still have the same problem OMFG.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;647893]...

Why did I call the next head coach a victim? Consider this:
[INDENT]Since Danny Boy bought the team and inherited Norv Truner as his coach, he has had one interim coach and four permanent head coaches since firing Norv. [B]Not a single one of them has ever coached another NFL game once Danny Boy fired them[/B].[/INDENT][/quote]

So that list is:
Robiskie
Schottenheimer
Spurrier
Gibbs
Zorn

I just don't get what you wanted to prove. It seemed irrelevant to your post in general, and I think everyone can agree that each one, except Zorn whose future is unclear as to where he will go and Robiskie, has unique circumstances unrelated to DS: Schottenheimer did coach after as Smoot said; Spurrier is back successful in college where he belongs, Gibbs ?where else would he have coached??, and Zorn - who will probably end up in Cleveland, lucky him.

I don't know how much the rest of your post holds water, but I am hoping for Bruce Allen to be able to hire/fire and build the exact staff he wants. And then I hope its a good one.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

Hidden problems? These issues have been blogged about before in the Locker Room. Picking Devin Thomas over Jackson wasn't that bad of a decision. Thomas has come around somewhat, just need a line to protect the QB and probably a new gunslinger behind center and he might be able to do some damage in 2010 and beyond. As for the undrafted/drafted young linemen that haven't panned out? Shit happens. THis is what you get when you do not use your top picks for linemen. Folks have been bitching about this for geez since Norv even.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

I will be upset if this organization doesn't build this team the right way. Draft guys, and DEVELOP our your talent. I am tired of seeing these teams draft guys and they are on the field contributing. We have a problem developing our young guys. I think Chris Wilson, Blades to name a couple on the D that look like good players, but rarely get on the field. Offense, Reihart (whatever) looked pretty good to me in the couple of games he played. Lets develop this guy. Devin Thomas and Malcom Kelly have to play. Marco Mitchel, another tall fast receiver that needs developed. We get these guys and they just sit, maybe play about 4 or 5 snaps a game. exception is Thomas. He came on strong toward the end of the season, and that was because he was on the field learning. We need to put this win now crap to rest and build a team that is stacked with young talent, depth, and capable of competing every year. If it means getting additional picks by trading some of the fan favorites (cooley, moss, portis) then so be it. We haven't done jack with them here, so why not start fresh and build a team of young hungry players instead of overpaid premadonnas.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

I mean isn't the best part of Allen's reputation his ability to draft talent, acquire FA talent judiciously, and all of this in an efficient cap sense? I understand Shanny will have a strong hand in talent evaluation too...so be it. Shit man anything will be better than Vinny and his nonsensical approach to roster-building.

If there is a facet of the franchise to have come under little fire but possibly been responsible for much of the shit-show we've all endured, it would be the training/doctor group. Look 2 or our starting olineman had extremely serious injuries at [B]season's beginning.[/B] We don't know whether there were candid conversations between trainers/doctors and the FO, and honestly I'm more likely to pin the blame on Toady the Moron for doing nothing about the oline. But nonetheless I'd like to know what kind of "diagnosis" the trainers/docs gave Chris and Randy.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

has the skins organization EVER done anything right in your eyes?

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

[quote=SBXVII;647942]OMG. Is there no satisfying everyone? For years some of us have been wanting a rebuilding of the team. Me especially. I'm tired of the whole ..."next year is the year", "just one more player", "if we had player X we'd be a contender."

I'm actually looking at this as rebuild. I hope DS is. I hope other fans are and not getting all caught up again in the Allen and Shanahan will fix this whole mess and we will be SB bound next year. Maybe this is what your trying to say, but I'm expecting at least 3-5 years to get there. I just want us to look somewhat competative starting next year.[/quote]

I agree on the shorter end of you prediction - this will take 3 full drafts to restock the team and become consistently competitive. And this incorporates the Skins making good picks and also not trading away picks for "one last piece". My hope with this team is one they focus on building the trenches first and then on the skill positions - and with drafting on the trenches they need to incorporate an approach of drafting at least one or two lineman every year as depth is so key in this area. Also I hope the team starts to focus on getting younger - if you look at the life expectancy of an nfl player they typically last 3.5 years - so building the team via older free agents simply is betting against the odds - lets look to Ted Lenosis and how he build the Caps into a powerhouse - build from within and keep your core guys - don't try to win the offseason championship - look at the disaster Jagr caused on the Caps and how landing the most expensive free agent completely backfired on the Caps with regards to that move.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

Big Haired Asistocrat:

As a matter of fact, I'm really in a good mood today - - been with family and friends for the Holidays and I'm relaxing at a solitary weekend house in south-central PA mountains. Thanks for your concern about my mental state...

The Internet allowed me to have a website because I paid the price that it demanded to permit that to happen. Nothing more than that; nothing less.

If "tall" was the reason to take Devin Thomas over Desean Jackson and nothing else, then the person(s) making the decision should have their job in jeopardy. I understand how that can be the rationalization after the fact when Jackson is a productive receiver and Thomas still has to show he belongs in the NFL as a starter, but if that is the only reason you have on draft day, you got problems in the FO that go deeper than just Vinny the Goofball.

The scouts don't determine contract terms; that's for sure. But if the scouts were to tell the "contract people" that someone like DeAngelo Hall just isn't a top flight shut-down corner at the NFL level, you would like to think that the "contract people" might listen to that competent judgement and not offer the guy $20M+ in guaranteed money. If that isn't the mechanism, there are a boatload of problems. But if the scouts thought Hall was a "bona-fide shut down corner" and passed that message along to the "contact people", you have a simpler problem to resolve...

Bruce Allen will make all contract decsions now? Are you sure? How are you sure? Did Danny Boy swear "Scout's Honor" that would be the case? What if the New Coach wants a player "really bad"? Does Allen have the "ace of trump" over the New Coach? [If so, expect a top-shelf coach to stay here about 18 months to two years.] What happens if Danny Boy gets another "hankering" to sign a player that Allen doesn't think is worth all that much? Will Danny Boy step back and allow 100% of the final decision to rest with Allen? If you say yes, how do you know that? Please recall that Danny Boy has never done that before for very long...

Scouts make mistakes; that's for sure. I used to be a scout for an NBA team and I made several mistakes about players who I thought were marginal talents and who turned out to be stars whose names you would surely recognize. I - - and my comp0atriot scouts - - made far fewer mistakes about players who simply could not play than the Redskins scouts plus front office seem to have made in the last 3 years.

I didn't say I didn't like the scouting dept. I said that the new administration had better take a look at what the individual scouts said about a couple of dozen specific players to see if those individual scouts are worth keeping around. Even if you are ready to anoint Bruce Allen as a "football genius" - - before he does anything here in Washington more complex than finding the men's room at Redskins' Park - - he has to rely on the summary notes of the individual scouts and the folks who aggregate players under consideration for him.

Vinny was and is a "football goofball". Maybe he was even more "exposed" in his lack of insight by an imperfect scouting department/system? Might it be possible...?

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

Paintrain:

I have no intention of "burying the new regime". I fundamentally believe that Bruce Allen is a big step up from Vinny Cerrato. But he will be only as good as the information that is available to him from those who work for him.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

Smootsmack:

Yeah, I realize that being a curmudgeon means pointing out the turds in the punchbowl more than once in a while. But at least this time I can say it was "before the fact" and not "after the fact".

With regard to Vinny not being a "consultant" or an "advisor" to Danny Boy, I completely agree that he will not be for at least a year or so. After that, I am not sure that Vinny will not find a way to wiggle his way back into a position where he gets to nibble on Danny Boy's earlobe more than once in a while. The ONLY way that would NEVER happen would be for Vinny to get a job as the GM of another NFL team and that is just not gonna happen in the near future...

OK, I'll keep the book on Rinehart open for the moment. Will you concede that his on-field performance in the two years since they drafted him has been far less than satisfactory for a first day draft pick? Maybe he'll develop. If he does, kudos to the next OL coach...

Granted, Montgomery cost the team the minimum salary and granted that he was the best of the lot that Vinny and the scouts found to bring in. But is that REALLY the best that was available? If so, that says the NFL is likely to run out of offensive linemen in the near future. Two words here: Can't play.

I'm not bitching about drafting Thomas ahead of Jackson - - even though that sure looks like a mistake. What I think is important is the scouting input that went to the honchos in the FO that led them to think Thomas was the better player. Big Haired Aristocrat thinks it was "height". I have to think that there had to be more scouting input than that. I can hire a twelve year old to rank order players in terms of height.

The Redskins roster as listed on NFL.com says that "he" is still on the roster as of 12/30/09. Even if that is outdated, he was surely on the roster for most of the season. And - - wait for it - - he can't play either!

Other NFL teams have had OL injuries and have had better players top plug in than what is on the Skins roster now and during the season. The Eagles had ONE offensive lineman play in every game this year - - and now he is on IR (Jamaal Jackson). The Panthers had ONE offensive lineman play in the game where they dominated the Giants who was a starter in September. They lost both OTs and both OGs. Their replacements are competent; go through my list and find "competent"...

Kevin Huntly is on the roster - - not the practice squad, the roster. Who told whom he could play? Have you seen any evidence that is the case after 3 years in the NFL?

Sorry, forgot about Marty in SD. You are right; he was the head coach there after Danny Boy let him go. Mea culpa!

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

Dirtbag 359:

I am indeed crusty and ill-tempered.

However, I take exception to your saying that I am "usually old". I am in fact ALWAYS old...

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

CRedskinsRule:

First of all, I have already admitted that I made a mistake about Marty Schotenheimer not coaching in the NFL after Danny Boy fired him.

Secondly, if you buy into the Redskins hiring a "blue-chip coach" who has Super Bowl credentials", then you also have to buy into the FACT that that coach and not Bruce Allen will hire his (the coach's) staff.

Now as to Allen's staff, if he does not find out what the track record of regional scouts was with regard to players who turned out to be stars elsewhere or marginal players on the Redskins, how might he decide who to keep and who to send packing?

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

GusFrerotte:

If you - - or the current Skins' Staff - - wants to convince yourself/itself that the drafting in the past several years was "good" simply because a bunch of players made the roster, then you wil consign this team to mediocrity forever. Roster building is as important as coaching; wasting draft picks on players who never amount to more than a "special teams demon" or worse is a ticket to "Top Ten Picking" more years than not.

If you don't think so, go ask a Raiders fan...

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

jamf:

Let me tranalste your post for you:


Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain... There's nothing here to see, just move along... Bruce Allen is omniscient and will solve each and every problem that comes his way brilliantly - - just the way Joe Gibbs did.

Ooops...

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

What roster are you looking at that still has Kevin Huntley on it? He's been gone for a while. Since before Zorn coached his first game

And Batiste was cut about a month ago. They kept him on the roster hoping to develop him and it didn't work out

On the one hand you say you never said you didn't like the scouting dept. and on the other you pick on roster moves (such as Huntley) that are irrelevant now (as much as they were when they signed him)

This was just a bad thread to begin with. I agree that scouting is important, I've said it myself before, but your approach was all wrong.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

I just read every single post and I have absolutely no idea what I was going to say.

HTTR!

That should satisfy those who want to see a meaningful post.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

The Goat:

Bruce Allen's reputation has been made on roster building. So - - the question here is how much of that did HE do personally and independently of his scouts. If he is dependent on top-shelf scouting input to get the results he achieved elsewhere, then I have some worries about how "top-shelf" the scouts are here on whom he will depend...

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

I thought that there were rumors that Shanny was building his staff somewhere at a Dunkin Doughnuts in Denver. Word has it that GW Bush is his scouting Czar.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

dmek25:

They have done lots of things right. They have done more things wrongly than rightly; but they have gotten lots of things right. Want a couple of examples off the top of my head?

1. Drafting Brian Orakpo and realizing that he was coachable enough to allow them to change his position from college to the NFL without making him a less effective player.

2. Signing Andre Carter as a free agent.

3. Signing London Fletcher as a free agent.

4. Signing Shawn Springs as a free agent.

5. Signing Randy Thomas as a free agent.

6. Drafting Chirs Cooley.

7. Finding diamonds in the rough such as Kedrick Golston to fill in when injuries demanded that they play lots of minutes.

8. [Pending] Drafting Jeremy Jarmon with a 3rd round pick. If he were in this year's normal draft, he would go in Round 1 - - of Round 2 at the very least.


Don't ask for my list of things they did wrong. I might not have the time to type that list out...

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;648012]The Goat:

Bruce Allen's reputation has been made on roster building. So - - the question here is how much of that did HE do personally and independently of his scouts. If he is dependent on top-shelf scouting input to get the results he achieved elsewhere, then I have some worries about how "top-shelf" the scouts are here on whom he will depend...[/quote]

Is it your take that Allen will not be allowed to assemble a scouting staff of his liking? What good what it do Snyder to bring in a professional football man but then continue to lean on subpar scouts (and not those of Allen)?

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you curmudgeon. There are many cases in the NFL of teams that where bad one year, a few changes later become competitive. The Bengals, Dolphins, Falcons, and the list goes on from there. Remember the Saints where bottom barrel until they signed Drew Brees and hired Payton.
I feel we have a good scouting department. Eric Schafer is known as a genius around the league. He is why we have not fallen into the contract hell that the media have expected us to fall into. Morocco Brown is a very talented evaluator. Don Warren has been with the Redskins both as a legendary player and as a scout. Most of the scouts are relatively new, young and talented. The only guy I would let go is Scott Campbell. Although he has 23 years in front office experience, he was Vinny’s guy and should be let go. Louis Riddick should be brought back to replace Campbell in my opinion. He was a scapegoat for Cerrato’s failures, and Vinny feared someone better than him being on this staff. If they make that minor change Allen will have a strong department backing him. Also there needs to be communication by the pro scouts to players and coaches on both sides pointing out weaknesses of our opponents. Riddick did this for William’s defense, I think it gave them an advantage on game day.
You can not hit a homerun every time in the draft. We pick talented players but we don’t give them game experience to play and develop into stars. Hopefully the new coaching staff will make it a priority to let our youth play. Play the talent vs. playing the marketable name. We didn’t pick Jackson because he is just like Moss. We haven’t made it a priority to draft lineman since 2003 when we drafted Dockery. This is by my belief a direct strategy of Vinny he know skill players, not lineman. When Gibbs came back he put together a good line, but he had a tendency to get veterans rather than youth. That is why we are in the mess we’re in now. Age broke us down. No one expected Samuels to go down, or any of the other injuries for that matter. All this change will give us great results for years to come.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

SmootSmack:

Try this link which I find at 2037 EST on 12/30/09:


[url=http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/roster/WAS/washington-redskins]Washington Redskins Roster | NFL at CBSSports.com[/url]


The roster is alphabetical and you will find Batiste and Huntley on it.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;648020]SmootSmack:

Try this link which I find at 2037 EST on 12/30/09:


[url=http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/roster/WAS/washington-redskins]Washington Redskins Roster | NFL at CBSSports.com[/url]


The roster is alphabetical and you will find Batiste and Huntley on it.[/quote]

From the Redskins official website, [url=http://www.redskins.com/team/]Team - Washington Redskins[/url]

Both players do not appear. CBS Sportsline team pages are outdated.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

The Goat:

I assume that Bruce Allen will assemble his own staff.

If we are to take some of the responses here, then there is no scouting problem because all of these folks are "highly regarded" and inline with other NFL teams and all that stuff. If Bruce Allen doesn't find out WHY his predecessor(s) made the decisions they did, it is possible he will make similar decisions in the future. That is what I was trying to point out by saying it was a "hidden problem".

The scouts may indeed be OUTSTANDING but the process of aggregating info may have been flawed - - or maybe with Vinny The Goofball in charge the quality of the info did not matter.

But IF - - I said IF - - the scouts are less than fully competent, that is a whole different problem... And simply declaring their competencies without investigating to see what they said about specific players that you know about now, you are making your judgments on the basis of faith alone.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

To All:

It's been swell, but I have to go and tend to my grandson who just woke up and needs some comforting. Despite what you folks think about me, I will be able to get him back into a restful sleep.


Happy New Year everyone. I probably won't be checking in here for a few days.


Stay well.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

Assessing the scouting department is much like assessing assistant coaches but with an even higher level of the "fog of war". At least with assistants, you can see their charges in action. With scouts, it's hard to say if they gave good info that was ignored by the GM or if they were giving bad info that was accepted or some level in between.

It's late so I am not going to try and do a player by player analysis. It seems to me, through several comparisons that have been done in other threads, that our drafts are not too far off from the norm when it comes to producing players. Further, when you are playing the back ups to back ups as starters, it seems to me that finding someone who "can play" is a shot in the dark for the best scouting dept.

Sorry, with the exception of Rinehart, you're examples just don't get me worked up about the scouting dept. Huntley? Batiste? Come on - it's not like someone was [I]intending[/I] these guys to come in and be starters - may be there was a [I]hope[/I] that one of them [I]may[/I] be able to step up. Some scout saw a flash - who knows. [I]And [/I]- on the other hand, what about Doughty? Horton? Chris Wilson? Sellers? Golston? Aren't these late round finds and UFA's indictative of competent scouting?

There are lots of front office issues and systemic flaws most of which, IMO, can be traced back to Vinny "Wormtongue" Cerrato. Allen is supposed to be a team builder and people person i.e. the Anti-VC (wait - does them make him ARVN?).

All in all, while everything must should be examined, the scouting dept. strikes me as an area that may actually function well given a little consistent direction and teamwork oriented oversight.

But, hell, the scouts could just be sitting in a back room with a dart board and "Blame Vinny" sign.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

I can't speak for any other fans, but i expect this to be a long and painful rebuilding process. I'm tired of us signing big names without any winning seasons to show for it. I don't care if it takes 3 or 4 years before to get it right. As long as we get it right. I don't want us to go out and try to build a team in one off season, because obviously it's not working for us.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

Dude, the scouts hit on a lot of good players actually. The problem is we traded away too many picks. I think that stops now and if we have all our picks, we should hit on even more players overall (but not a higher %).

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

I don't expect it to be too long of a rebuilding process. We actually have a lot of good pieces:

Fred Davis
Devin Thomas
Marko Mitchell (he will pan out just wait)
Deangelo Hall
Albert Haynesworth
Brian Orakpo
Jeremy Jarmon
Rocky McIntosh
Laron Landry (will be fine when they don't need to play him out of position anymore)


All we need a good linebacker or two, 3 new starters on O-Line, probably a new QB, and to address the running back position.


We will be alright! Next year might not be great, but then again I wouldn't be suprised if we were decent. The season after next, I definitely expect to be a contender. Turn-arounds don't take all that long in the NFL; there's such great parity. This is especially true for big market teams where money is not an issue. I just hope Snyder continues his new trend of only going after free agents who are entering their primes and are very young. I doubt we trade any picks away for aging veterans ever again. That we will soon see was Vinny's biggest failure as an executive.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

I love how people pick players over looked by us then point to them as a problem with our scouting. Then they find the picks of ours who have not lived up to their billing to support their arguement. This is just so easy to look back and find mistakes but you can do the same thing with 31 other teams every year.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

I seem to recall them saying that they had Jackson rated higher but saw great potential out of Thomas; I'm sure that they preferred his frame too.

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;648005]Smootsmack:

Yeah, I realize that being a curmudgeon means pointing out the turds in the punchbowl more than once in a while. But at least this time I can say it was "before the fact" and not "after the fact".
[/quote]
Seems like you're complaining about things after the fact. We're not going crystal ball here are we?

Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...
 

[quote=Landry44;648026]I can't speak for any other fans, but i expect this to be a long and painful rebuilding process. I'm tired of us signing big names without any winning seasons to show for it. [B]I don't care if it takes 3 or 4 years before to get it right. As long as we get it right. I don't want us to go out and try to build a team in one off season, because obviously it's not working for us[/B].[/quote]

:food-smil