American Needle vs. NFL
 

This is a pivotal case for pro sports the US Supreme Court is hearing. JoeRedskin I'm looking in your direction to dumb it down to layman's terms for us.

[url=http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-nfl-court4-2010jan04,0,1714398.story]Supreme Court to weigh NFL and antitrust laws - latimes.com[/url]

On Jan. 13, the pro football owners will be asking the high court to rule for the first time that the NFL is shielded from antitrust laws because, while its teams compete on the playing field, they function in business as a "single entity."

If the justices were to agree, the ramifications could be significant, not just for football but all pro sports leagues, say experts in sports law. Freed from the antitrust laws, owners could get together to restrict salaries for players and coaches and raise prices for everything from tickets to stocking caps.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=SmootSmack;649700]This is a pivotal case for pro sports the US Supreme Court is hearing. [B]JoeRedskin I'm looking in your direction to dumb it down[/B] to layman's terms for us.

[url=http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-nfl-court4-2010jan04,0,1714398.story]Supreme Court to weigh NFL and antitrust laws - latimes.com[/url]

On Jan. 13, the pro football owners will be asking the high court to rule for the first time that the NFL is shielded from antitrust laws because, while its teams compete on the playing field, they function in business as a "single entity."

If the justices were to agree, the ramifications could be significant, not just for football but all pro sports leagues, say experts in sports law. Freed from the antitrust laws, owners could get together to restrict salaries for players and coaches and raise prices for everything from tickets to stocking caps.[/quote]

That's Joe's specialty -- dumbing it down ;)

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

For some reason I thought this was about tattoo artist using NFL logos.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

This issue may seem small and legalistic but actually it is very important to us all, as SS tried to indicate.

In the 1970's the NFL was not exactly like, but kind of like, a slave set-up. The owners were gods who could pay much smaller salaries relative to today and keep players forever because there was no free agency. Teams stuck together more but you also had downsides like Archie Manning's spending his entire career on sucky teams because he had no option to move. And training camp holdouts were more common because that was about the only leverage that a player had. Then a series of legal battles surrounding anti-trust law moved the advantage in the players' direction, resulting in free agency, high salaries, etc., as well as "parity" (to the extent that it exists). What this case will do, possibly, is undo all of this history and make owners football gods again.

I'm not a legal expert and I've never linked to PFT before, but Florio was a lawyer before he ran a football Web site, and he has more information [URL="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/07/rhetoric-ramps-up-regarding-american-needle-case/"]here[/URL].

As legalese as this all may seem, this case could dramatically change the way that the game we love is played.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

no wonder the owners opted out of the cba. They may feel that can realisticly win this case

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;649722]That's Joe's specialty -- dumbing it down ;)[/quote]

Finding this thread doesn't appear to be his specialty :)

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

I don't know if Brees actually wrote this article, but if he did, hats off to him.

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/07/AR2010010702947.html]washingtonpost.com[/url]

I really wish we would have gotten him back when he was available. I especially liked the shot at Jones and Snyder at the end.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=Rajmahal33;652293]I don't know if Brees actually wrote this article, but if he did, hats off to him.

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/07/AR2010010702947.html"]washingtonpost.com[/URL]

I really wish we would have gotten him back when he was available. I especially liked the shot at Jones and Snyder at the end.[/quote]
I didn't take it as a shot.. he was just mentioning that no Cowboys or Redskins affiliated person (owner, fans, etc) would consider the two teams part of a single entity; seemed more like he was talking about the rivalry than anything else.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

No free agency would be horrible for teams who can't draft worth a lick.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=tryfuhl;652338]I didn't take it as a shot.. he was just mentioning that no Cowboys or Redskins affiliated person (owner, fans, etc) would consider the two teams part of a single entity; seemed more like he was talking about the rivalry than anything else.[/quote]
In fact I thought it basically weakened his well written article. I think JJ and DS would whole heartedly agree that both teams work within the single entity that is the NFL, that while Dallas or Washington may aggressively work to better their position, they are not competing against the NFL, but more so as maybe to divisions within IBM might compete, the northeast division striving to top the southern area in sales etc. Definitely will be interesting to see how this turns out.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;652421]No free agency would be horrible for teams who can't draft worth a lick.[/quote]

Yes. But what we saw decades ago was even worse. Because owners could do whatever they wanted, some chose to be super cheap, even if it meant losing. Those who were truly interested in winning built impregnable dynasties. So there was not much competitive balance, whether one drafted well or not. On Sept. 1 of each year you knew who was going to win and who was going to lose, more or less. Teams rarely went worst to first or the other way around as they do now. As much as football was great even then, it was more boring than the relatively wide open cap era.

It also was, arguably, an assault on the democratic free market. If I am a plumbing assistant, I can sell my services to whatever plumbing company will pay me the most. But without free agency, players have no opportunity to sell their services to the highest bidder. They are shut out from finding a market-based wage.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

To me the competition is the product. All the teams work together to create the product. It's definitely not cut and dry though.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=Lotus;652428]Yes. But what we saw decades ago was even worse. Because owners could do whatever they wanted, some chose to be super cheap, even if it meant losing. Those who were truly interested in winning built impregnable dynasties. So there was not much competitive balance, whether one drafted well or not. On Sept. 1 of each year you knew who was going to win and who was going to lose, more or less. [/quote]

i agree with you but i heard something interesting a while ago. there is a minimum salary cap now (70 something mill?). teams have to spend atleast the min in salary to players.

the bucs this past offseason were well below the min cap number. so they gave two of their lowest paid players an incentive bonus contract to bump them up and within the min salary cap requirement.

guess what the bonus incentives called four? something ridiculus like 12 blocked kicks this season.

probably not super relevant but i found that interesting.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=Lotus;652428]Yes. But what we saw decades ago was even worse. Because owners could do whatever they wanted, some chose to be super cheap, even if it meant losing. Those who were truly interested in winning built impregnable dynasties. So there was not much competitive balance, whether one drafted well or not. On Sept. 1 of each year you knew who was going to win and who was going to lose, more or less. Teams rarely went worst to first or the other way around as they do now. As much as football was great even then, it was more boring than the relatively wide open cap era.

It also was, arguably, an assault on the democratic free market. If I am a plumbing assistant, I can sell my services to whatever plumbing company will pay me the most. But without free agency, players have no opportunity to sell their services to the highest bidder. They are shut out from finding a market-based wage.[/quote]

The current system has its flaws, but its worked incredibly well. Even if the NFL wins this suit, I hope theyre smart enough to avoid going back to those dark days. Free agency has to stay. Now, i'd be fine if teams could slap a franchise tag on a player indefinitely, so long as they continued to pay the player the average of the top 5 players at that position plus 10% each year.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=over the mountain;652436]i agree with you but i heard something interesting a while ago. there is a minimum salary cap now (70 something mill?). teams have to spend atleast the min in salary to players.

the bucs this past offseason were well below the min cap number. so they gave two of their lowest paid players an incentive bonus contract to bump them up and within the min salary cap requirement.

guess what the bonus incentives called four? something ridiculus like 12 blocked kicks this season.

probably not super relevant but i found that interesting.[/quote]

Oh, that's relevant. The Bucs were trying to cheat the cap system. You can be sure that players will bring up things like that in court and/or in CBA negotiations.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;652438]The current system has its flaws, but its worked incredibly well. Even if the NFL wins this suit, I hope theyre smart enough to avoid going back to those dark days. Free agency has to stay. Now, i'd be fine if teams could slap a franchise tag on a player indefinitely, so long as they continued to pay the player the average of the top 5 players at that position plus 10% each year.[/quote]

I agree. IMO One reason why the NFL is so much more popular than other sports is because of the competitive balance that free agency and the salary cap have brought. No teams can hoard talent through ridiculous spending that other teams could never match, which seems to be the scene in baseball.

Maybe the court will rule that the NFL is one entity in terms of marketing but not in terms of labor. This will leave American Needle crying but it will preserve the leverage that players need to keep the owners from ending free agency.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=Lotus;652428]Yes. But what we saw decades ago was even worse. Because owners could do whatever they wanted, some chose to be super cheap, even if it meant losing. Those who were truly interested in winning built impregnable dynasties. So there was not much competitive balance, whether one drafted well or not. On Sept. 1 of each year you knew who was going to win and who was going to lose, more or less. Teams rarely went worst to first or the other way around as they do now. As much as football was great even then, it was more boring than the relatively wide open cap era.

It also was, arguably, an assault on the democratic free market. If I am a plumbing assistant, I can sell my services to whatever plumbing company will pay me the most. [B] But without free agency, players have no opportunity to sell their services to the highest bidder[/B]. They are shut out from finding a market-based wage.[/quote]

I have no problem with free agency, it's the American way and people should be allowed to freely make the most they can get. It's free agency combined with the salary cap that bothers me. You may want a player and would like to sign him to a large amount but the cap restricts what you can offer him. You could cut a player to get under the cap and sign the other player, but it may be a player you would like to keep and once he's cut he may not make from another team what you were paying him. It does give an advantage I suppose to those who are able and[B] willing [/B]to spend more, but isn't that the way life is outside of the NFL?

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=Lotus;652448]I agree. IMO One reason why the NFL is so much more popular than other sports is because of the competitive balance that free agency and the salary cap have brought. No teams can hoard talent through ridiculous spending that other teams could never match, which seems to be the scene in baseball.

[B]Maybe the court will rule that the NFL is one entity in terms of marketing but not in terms of labor.[/B] This will leave American Needle crying but it will preserve the leverage that players need to keep the owners from ending free agency.[/quote]
That seems like the reasonable conclusion, if it is able to be legally justified.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;652458]That seems like the reasonable conclusion, i[B]f it is able to be legally justified.[/B][/quote]

That's why we need JoeRedskin!

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=Lotus;652468]That's why we need JoeRedskin![/quote]

He certainly has gone into hiding, but in his defense (which I hate to do!) he has been massively swamped lately. Maybe today will be the day he comes to the rescue.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

We need JoeRedskin or Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

Guys... I will be addressing this over the weekend. Anti-trust is not my area and, trust me, it is really a specialization. Haven't had a chance to do some research but will try to get to it this weekend.

Just been a bit busy this week doing legal work for those who pay me to do it.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;652556]Guys... I will be addressing this over the weekend. Anti-trust is not my area and, trust me, it is really a specialization. Haven't had a chance to do some research but will try to get to it this weekend.

Just been a bit busy this week doing legal work for those who pay me to do it.[/quote]
Thanks man!

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;652556]Guys... I will be addressing this over the weekend. Anti-trust is not my area and, trust me, it is really a specialization. Haven't had a chance to do some research but will try to get to it this weekend.

Just been a bit busy this week doing legal work for those who pay me to do it.[/quote]

There ya go putting others ahead of those who really count on you again, geez man, some people here need ya. Not me of course!

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;652556]Guys... I will be addressing this over the weekend. Anti-trust is not my area and, trust me, it is really a specialization. Haven't had a chance to do some research but will try to get to it this weekend.

Just been a bit busy this week doing legal work for those who pay me to do it.[/quote]
I'll throw in a buck.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

If FA went away, what would Dan Snyder do every off season? We would be stuck with bad players for a long time, but I guess that beats going out and getting players who were passed their prime.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

NFL will win...they're a single entity but the players have the right to unionize and protest through lockout. As for fans, they can protest ticket prices by not going to the games. The current system is perfectly fine.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

Okay, so I am going to completely wuss out on this. Here is an excellent article which sums up that which I spent this weekend reading about:

[url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/michael_mccann/01/12/americanneedlev.nfl/index.html]Why American Needle v. NFL is most important sports case - Michael McCann - SI.com[/url]

Essentially, I believe saden is correct - regardless of the "single entity" theory - nothing prohibits the players from negotiating a CBA through their union. Baseball already has an anti-trust exception and its players move readily enough.

While this case may create lots and lots of work for attorneys as they sort through and memorialize the structural changes that will occur as a result of an affirmance of the 7th Circuits position, I don't believe it will fundamentally change the way players and club owners deal with each other. Unless the players agree to it, there is not going to be a roll back to the 1970's when it comes to owners "ownership" of players.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

Yeah I think this is much-a-do.

The SC is a conservative leaning bunch but isn't 9 ultra-conservatives. They'll confirm the 7th's, pass on the NFL's proposed interpretation and call it a day. NFL has nothing to lose though...they know the SC won't overturn the 7th's. They're swinging for the fences with the bases loaded and no outs. Poor American Needle has to continue to fight this even though it really no longer is about them at all.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

I hope the American Needle wins, if nothing more then give Madden some competition on the video game front as well as making NFL games available on other networks like Comcast.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

Dirtbag, comcast doesnt make NFL games available???? Do they block the networks or something?

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;654404]Dirtbag, comcast doesnt make NFL games available???? Do they block the networks or something?[/quote]

No, DirectTV has exclusive rights to sell a package like NFL Sunday Ticket. Networks like Comcast are limited to whatever games Fox and CBS are showing for a particular region. If you live in Atlanta like me and you want to watch every Redskins game then your only options are to find the game streamed online or buy DirectTV. Absoulute bull. Not sure how the NFL expects people to continue to be fans when they can't see the games they want to see.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;654408]No, DirectTV has exclusive rights to sell a package like NFL Sunday Ticket. Networks like Comcast are limited to whatever games Fox and CBS are showing for a particular region. If you live in Atlanta like me and you want to watch every Redskins game then your only options are to find the game streamed online or buy DirectTV. Absoulute bull. Not sure how the NFL expects people to continue to be fans [B]when they can't see the games they want to see.[/B][/quote]

You can, you just go through their prefered partner, DirectTV, [URL="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123786503490122053.html"]who happens to pay them billions[/URL].

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSWBT01394320100524]US high court--NFL sports apparel suit can proceed | Reuters[/url]
Sounds like American Needle won.

WASHINGTON, May 24 (Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court ruled on Monday, in a dispute over an exclusive licensing deal for sports merchandise, that a lawsuit against the National Football League under federal antitrust law can go forward.

Stocks | Mergers & Acquisitions | Global Markets

In a unanimous decision in the closely watched sports law case, the justices overturned a ruling by a U.S. appeals court in Chicago that had thrown out the lawsuit against the league over its deal on the sale of NFL-branded items like caps and other apparel.

The high court's ruling was a victory for American Needle Inc, a clothing manufacturer in Buffalo Grove, Illinois, which argued that the NFL and its 32 teams can be sued under the antitrust laws for signing an exclusive licensing deal with Reebok International in 2001.

"We conclude that the NFL's licensing activities constitute concerted action that is not categorically beyond the coverage of" federal antitrust law, Justice John Paul Stevens wrote in the court's opinion. (Reporting by James Vicini, Editing by Gerald E. McCormick)

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

No kidding.

I thought sure of the people who were sure the NFL would win were getting ahead of themselves.

When Dan Snyder bought in, he bought "The Redskins', and to think he was buying a share of the NFL as a whole seemed a little beyond the pale.

Think the justices got this one right, and it opens a can of worms for other areas, not just hat manufacturers.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

NFL statement on today’s American Needle decision:

“In today’s decision, the Supreme Court recognized that ‘special characteristics’ of professional sports leagues, including the need for competitive balance, ‘may well justify’ business decisions that among independent competitors would otherwise be unlawful. The court noted that the NFL teams’ shared interest in making the league successful and cooperating to produce NFL football provide ‘a perfectly sensible justification for making a host of collective decisions.’ The decision will simply result in American Needle’s claim being sent back to the federal district court in Chicago, where the case will resume in its early stages. We remain confident we will ultimately prevail because the league decision about how best to promote the NFL was reasonable, pro-competitive, and entirely lawful. The Supreme Court’s decision has no bearing on collective bargaining, which is governed by labor law.”
nfllabor.com

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

Good job, CRed. Thank you for the update. I've been wondering what has been going on with this case.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

[quote=SmootSmack;649700]This is a pivotal case for pro sports the US Supreme Court is hearing. JoeRedskin I'm looking in your direction to dumb it down to layman's terms for us.

[URL="http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-nfl-court4-2010jan04,0,1714398.story"]Supreme Court to weigh NFL and antitrust laws - latimes.com[/URL]

On Jan. 13, the pro football owners will be asking the high court to rule for the first time that the NFL is shielded from antitrust laws because, while its teams compete on the playing field, they function in business as a "single entity."

If the justices were to agree, the ramifications could be significant, not just for football but all pro sports leagues, say experts in sports law. Freed from the antitrust laws, owners could get together to restrict salaries for players and coaches and raise prices for everything from tickets to stocking caps.[/quote]

Well the Justices gave the owners the finger so it will be business as usualy probably. IF the owners raise the prices anymore they would lose out with the fans for sure.

Re: American Needle vs. NFL
 

One thing that might arise out of this is the eclusivity agreement with the NFL and the networks that broadcast the games being considered an antitrust violation. If the Supreme Court is saying that they in effect are 32 competing businesses operating on a competitive basis then what of the DirecTV agreement and the agreements with FOX, NBC, and CBS not to mention NFL Network. The league can't hide behind the Clayton Act exemptions to hand out uniform TV contracts anymore. We could actually see teams selling broadcast rights to the highest bidder individually, that would be awsome because then maybe we see the Skins game and have others available on off networks like versus or comcast or masn, the DirecTV sunday ticket may no longer be necessary.