Winslow or Taylor at #5, or #7 or #8?
 

According to the Post today, Gibbs says we're staying pat at #5 and taking the pick-

[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44328-2004Mar9.html[/url]

But he also mentions we would trade down if the right "impossible to turn down"offer came-
Obviously I'm hoping for the scenario Joe Crisp posted earlier today- we trade down to #7 or #8 and are still able to get one of our two favorites, Kellen Winslow Jr. or Sean Taylor-

Which would you guys prefer?

There is the "defense wins championships" arguement, but can you imagine opposing defenses trying to stop an offense that includes Brunell, Portis, Coles, Gardner AND Winslow, Jr.? Which part of the field would you double cover? You can't cover the whole field with that many weapons, can you??

On the flip side- having a safety like Taylor delivering punishing blows and snatching picks is huge, especially in big games. But how much of an upgrade is he over Bowen and Ohalete?

Doesn't Winslow Jr. fill a bigger hole?

I'm going to be ecstatic (especially if we can drop to #7 or #8 and pick up an additional 3rd- or is that too high?) either way b/c I love both players....
But I'd like to see if there is a concencus among warpathers....

are there any possible good safeties that may be cut after the june 1st deadline or next year? I think our defense is good enough as is this year especially with how I think they will play under a defensive coach who know's what he's doing. that being said I draft winslow if they r both there but if he's gone and Taylor's there then that wouldn't be terrible either. I remember every football expert and broadcaster saying last year all it would take for Kansas City to win the championship would be for their defense to be ranked around 15th or so in the league and I think our offense has the potential to be better than KC and our defensive personel and coaches are better than KC so why shouldn;t the same be said about DC? How much freaking fun would it be to see the skins scoring close to 30 points a week? if a team concentrates on the run we've got brunell/ramsey throwing the ball to Coles, Gardner, Mccants, and possibly Winslow. We've up close how much a player like shockey can do to an opposing teams defense so why not draft a TE who is better than shockey and even harder to guard? just my 2 cents

I don't think that TE is a hole right now. I think we can get by with who we have there now. We don't have to have a pass catching TE - especially with the threat of Portis coming out of the backfield. I like the idea of taking Taylor. With Taylor, Bowen would go back to SS while Taylor played FS. Either 'cane is ok by me.

I would go tayler for sure. As of right now I don't think our defense is gonna be much better than last year even with Gregg Williams running it. We still wont' be able to generate much pass rush from our front four and we still don't have a legitimate run stuffer. Plus we have lost champ bailey in the secondary. I think we need an impact defensive player with our 5th pick be it Shawn Tayler, Tommie Harris, or Vince Wilfork.

I really dont think either TE or S is a hole. I would like to go with Taylor cause he's a defensive guy and I think we need more on our D than our offense at this point. Ultimatley, I would like to see us get a big dlinemen, but I think coaching will help our d alot anyways, so a playmaker like Taylor would be awsome. But I wouldnt mind KW2 either.

I'm hoping it's Taylor, having him and Bowen back there will make any offense wince on the way through.

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]I really dont think either TE or S is a hole. I would like to go with Taylor cause he's a defensive guy and I think we need more on our D than our offense at this point. Ultimatley, I would like to see us get a big dlinemen, but I think coaching will help our d alot anyways, so a playmaker like Taylor would be awsome. But I wouldnt mind KW2 either.[/QUOTE]
I couldn't agree more.

[QUOTE=skinsfanthru&thru]...Kansas City to win the championship would be for their defense to be ranked around 15th or so in the league and I think our offense has the potential to be better than KC and our defensive personel and coaches are better than KC so why shouldn;t the same be said about DC? How much freaking fun would it be to see the skins scoring close to 30 points a week? if a team concentrates on the run we've got brunell/ramsey throwing the ball to Coles, Gardner, Mccants, and possibly Winslow. We've up close how much a player like shockey can do to an opposing teams defense so why not draft a TE who is better than shockey and even harder to guard? just my 2 cents[/QUOTE]

Defense wins games and championships. Look at both Super bowl participants this year and the winner the year before. The media whined all week before the super bowl because the fan favorites (because of their offense) Colts, Chiefs and Eagles got beat (soundly) in the playoffs. Manning got intercepted like 4 times? The Chief were embarrassed.
I also seem to remember the WR Taylor Jacob fans after the draft last year saying the same thing you are saying now, 'This going to be fun, with Coles, Gardner, Jacobs, McCants and Johnson who are they going to double cover? The offense is going to score a hundred points a game, etc. etc.'
What good is scoring 40 points a game if your defense gives up 41?
Neither one of the two super bowl champions had/have a TE to remember.
Pro bowl TE's Gonzalez and Shockey etc. were sitting at home watching the game on TV. Patriots and Carolina's defense got them to the superbowl. The Skins need to stop ignoring their defense's needs in order to get the next Taylor Jacobs.

PT.2
I am not comparing the talent levels of Taylor Jacobs and Kellen Winslow Jr.
Winslow is going to be a star, Jacobs is not yet near that level.
I am just comparing the need at their positions on our roster in comparison to other greater needs. We more desperately need a pass rush DE or upgrade the important Saftey position. Free Saftey is the QB on defense. Ohalete is physically adequate, but he is not who I want leading our Defense. We need a team leader like Sean Taylor.

Both are tough to pass up. Is Rasby the TE of the future? I think Rasby is a good blocker but can he catch the ball? We can get a safty elsewhere. If Winslow is gone we can get Taylor. I know deffense win championships but you also have to put points on the board to win.

Last years Colts and KC will disagree with you.
Under Gibbs system you platoon the TE's. Rasby is the blocker. Byron Chamberlain, Robert Royal, Leonard Stephens or Kevin Ware will be the pass catchers.
Gibbs won three super bowls with Rick Walker, Don Warren and Clint Didier. None of those guys was a pro bowler or will be inducted to the hall of fame.

You guys talk as if Bowen is a good safety. He is adequate at best but he sure as hell can’t cover shit. Depending on how good Spring & Smoot Combo is, Bowen will be exposed a lot.

I personally think we need a solid defensive lineman. I think it would be a mistake to pickup an offensive player with all the weapons we have on offense.

[QUOTE=raleighskinsfan]I'm going to be ecstatic (especially if we can drop to #7 or #8 and pick up an additional 3rd- or is that too high?) either way b/c I love both players....[/QUOTE]
According to the "Trade Value Chart" ([url="http://www.nfldraftview.com/tvchart.html"]http://www.nfldraftview.com/tvchart.html[/url]), the #5 overall pick should be worth the #7 overall, plus at least a mid-3rd rounder (#79 overall), or another combination of picks that total 1800 points in value (#7 plus a late 3rd [i]and[/i] late 4th, for example). For the Falcons to trade up from #8, they would have to give the Skins at least a late 2nd rounder (#61 overall), in addition to the #8 pick, for the trade to be equitable. They could also package a mid-3rd (#79) and a high-4th (#100) to go with their 1st rounder.

The risk the Redskins run here is that the Lions could very well take Taylor OR Winslow at #6, though I feel like the Lions are in the market for a trade-down themselves, as they could be looking to pickup RBs Jones or Jackson in the mid-to-late first round (before the Cowboys and Patriots pick).

[QUOTE=saden1]You guys talk as if Bowen is a good safety. He is adequate at best but he sure as hell can’t cover shit. Depending on how good Spring & Smoot Combo is, Bowen will be exposed a lot.

I personally think we need a solid defensive lineman. I think it would be a mistake to pickup an offensive player with all the weapons we have on offense.[/QUOTE]
Bowen got burned a lot last year because he wasn't playing his natural position.

This is exactly why I love this board. Thanks for the analysis of the value of the picks Joe Crisp!
I don't know about you guys, but defensewins is starting to sway me with his points. The point he (or someone) made about the safety being the qb of the defense is an important point. If we can have an impact playmaker at that position, it will improve our overall d by leaps and bounds. We have plenty of offensive talent- it's time to spread some over to the D. Plus, imagine having two bruisers like Bowen and Taylor patrolling our middle- with Smoot and Springs on the corners, we would have a complete secondary... Hopefully we can trade down with the Falcons to #8, pick up that late 2nd rounder (#61 overall), still snag Taylor, and pick up a pass rushing DE at #61. Who might be left with that pick????

Exactly, Bowen is the hole. He never made a big time hit in any game this year Ohalette had more tackles than he did. Ohalette did not get posterized by Keyshawn like Bowen did. I say Taylor, Springs, Smoot, Ohalette at the same postion he played last year. Bowen is a Lynch wannabe. a matchup disaster. One on one with Bowen Touchdown!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But on the other hand Winslow would make the offense unstoppable. not even new Englad could stop it. You can't blitz it. I watched miami some this season what tightend you know can catch and run 80 and 90 yeard touchdowns and out run DB's. We are not gonna be a non scoring defensive team. We are gonna be balanced and score plenty of points. NewEngland shut down the colts but they were not stopping the run James had a good day. We are getting the real Redskins back stop trying to make them into the Ravens or New England. if you have excellent LBS and DBs you cant afford a big time d-line unless you gut the offense. be like the Ravens and have no WR's.

I'm going with Taylor 1st & if not available, the best DT.

I might trade down if the same DT will be available in the second rd. Otherwise I'd have to draft Winslow Jr.

I don't see anyone in this draft who can have the most impact to our team other than taylor he is taylored made for us, or just about anyone else as well, He's the only guy in this draft that I have a can't miss feeling about, in fact it's a know doubt about it feeling, the kid is going to be a great one, I really hope we stay the coarse and draft him.

I've heard that if they get Taylor the plan would be to play Bowen at strong safety and move Ohalete to nickel packages and special teams. I guess getting Taylor probably means no more Andre Lott. He's no Ronnie, but I think Lott is halfway decent. Maybe he can stick on and play special teams

I think I'm leaning heavily toward gearing the draft around getting Taylor. If we are certain that we can trade down and still get him, then I'm all for it. If not, then I think we take him at #5. I'd only draft Winslow if Taylor was gone before #5.

--Phin

winslow is the man without a doubt.
[IMG]http://www.genericviagrapills.com/images/love.jpg[/IMG]
(my last vacation picture)

[QUOTE=offiss]I don't see anyone in this draft who can have the most impact to our team other than taylor he is taylored made for us, or just about anyone else as well, He's the only guy in this draft that I have a can't miss feeling about, in fact it's a know doubt about it feeling, the kid is going to be a great one, I really hope we stay the coarse and draft him.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree here. An impact S like Taylor will make ALL the opposition offensive backfield players think about him, and he will lift the whole playing level of the D. If he has gone by #5, that means there are still some top players available who other teams will be keen to get. That is when we trade down to pick up someone like Udeze.
Otherwise, IT HAS TO BE TAYLOR!

[QUOTE=
I also seem to remember the WR Taylor Jacob fans after the draft last year saying the same thing you are saying now, 'This going to be fun, with Coles, Gardner, Jacobs, McCants and Johnson who are they going to double cover? The offense is going to score a hundred points a game, etc. etc.' =Quotes]

I don't know how anyone could have seriously said that and I know I for one wasn't happy with the pick like a lot of other members here and would have preffered getting Doss and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Plus as far as offensive minded teams not winning or reaching the super bowls lately, I seem to remember the rams winning a few years ago, the raiders making it 2 years ago, and it's not like denver, green bay and new england were just defensive teams. And didn't those two "defensive" teams recently in the superbowl each score a combined 61 points against each other? Am I the only one who see's that our defense will atleast be decent enough to allow our offense to win games for us?

sure either player would be a great addition but Winslow is and will be by far a more unique player at his position. as much as we'd like to be, there is a very, very slight chance of being great on both sides of the ball so why not go with the balanced defense and strengthen the offense which is Gibbs strength? I'll trust in whatever the team decides to do and I'll keep strong to my belief in winslow being the better player for a longer time than taylor but I wouldn't be upset in the slightest if we drafted taylor because he is a very good safety. with either pick we'll be a stronger team and that's all that matters in my eyes.

and everyone can forget about us drafting a d-linemen if we stand pat with our one pick because it'd be too expensive and I'm sure the team is looking for an immediate starter. I mean can anyone name a d-lineman from the past couple drafts who actually had a real impact the first year or 2 and was a starter from the get go? If I forgot someone, my bad, but no one that i remember has done anything yet.

Julius Peppers was nasty his first year but then he was caught for some kind of drug. He had 12 sacks in 12 games.

Peppers was so good everyone knew he was the best player in the draft period. He tested positive for that ephedrine crap no drug a dietary supplement that has contributed to players passing out and dying so it is banned now. It pains me how people try to drag players names through the mudd every chance they get.
Damn ephedrine ain't that shit Romanowski was taking. Peppers a good guy none of the d-linemen in this draft are anywhere nears Peppers. I am from charlotte been a Redskin fan since they played on our Carolina channels as our team until the Panthers came. I like the parties we had during the playoffs but I WANT THE SKINS TO WIN IT ALL.

I'm just glad this decesion isn't mine.

On one hand you have a TE that's an amazing check down, a great blocker, and runs/catches like a receiver.

On the other hand you have a Run-stopping, pass covering, hard hitting safety that would make any defense think twice.

Winslow is a lot like Shockey only better and without the huge ego. I think he could make this team unstoppable, I do however like Robert Royal. He has a lot of potential and is very athletic for a TE.

I'd be sad to see Ohalate benched, I thing he did a good job for his first year starting. I think Bowen should be sitting. Only people he put a hurting on all year happened to be other Redskins. Taylor could singlehandedly make Greg Williams feel like the luckiest man in the world. When you have a tool like him on defense it really keeps the other team on their toes. Another aspect that hasn't been touched upon is how Taylor is a leader, something the skins desperatly need. LaVar never seems to lead, Smoot is headed for the roll, but we just don't have a real leader on the team. Someone for the troops to rally behind and pump them up.

I'm torn myself, both are amazing impact players and I will be happy with either choice. If we do go Winslow, I'd trade down 2 - 3 spots because I think he'll be there still. This way we get a couple more picks.

And the only reason NE stopped the Colts is they molested the Colts receivers. That game was nearly as bad as the snow bowl. I love how New England always get's the calls they need. Should we just start calling them the Lakers?

Actually, Iffy took over the starting SS position from Sam Shade in 2002. I was never really impressed by him. He was an underdog who is average in my book. Putting Taylor at FS and moving Bowen over to SS would be a definite upgrade.

I forgot, what was the minor controversy last year in regards to Kellen Winslow Jr.? I think he might have done something regretable in a game and later blew up about it to a reporter in the locker room after the game? Something like that....I forgot what he did. Does anyone remember?

I say only pull the trigger on a trade if their is a first and a second rounder, or more. And not some low picks nothing lower than around 20th pick.

With our picks draft the best saftey, available (Bob Sanders) and tight end/d lineman.

Some Mocks!
 

Some Mocks actually have us trading down already because of needs. But with all of the FAs we've picked up, I don't see as many weaknesses except at DE, DL. But that is without having seen Coach Williams schemes yet! If he holds out for Taylor, I would not be surprised to see him Lite'em up in the War room on Draft day! He would be estatic! If we trade back, we should pick up the aforementioned DE, and some other help, depending where the pick falls.

Truthfully, I want Detroit's #6, and some picks just to move back 1 spot. Then, the Winslow supporters will be happy, because Detroit really wants Taylor, and that leaves Winslow for us.

Note to Defensewins: I believe the story is Winslow objected to being taken out of the game at a particularly intense moment.

I really hate the fact that the FO doesn't hold their cards more closely, because they always make their draft wishes known in the press before draft day.

Every team does that backrow, and most teams that have the #1 spot even try to have that guy signed prior to the draft.

It's not like the draft is some top secret operation, everyone knows what everyone needs and who they have their eyes on.

I think with all the talent available this year we should take a page out of jimmy johnson's book and have some of our guy's standing by our potential drafties with a structured contract, and who ever sign's first is our pick, putting pressure on player's to sign rather than risk being picked later in the draft, this way there is no holdout and we will have a contract in place that will be structurally cap friendly for us.

Yep!
 

Yep! I'm positive the Mock sites are where cousinvinnie spends all of his free time after FA! That is where he gets his ideas. That and asking the writers at the washingtonpost!

So we are right! No secrets.

Of course it is easier to keep a secret the further back you draft. For example, no one really knows who Pitts, NE, or the iggles are interested in do they?

The best Draft Day for me was the double trade back for P. Ramsey! That was cool! Who would have guessed that move? But the rumor was out there that LDS was trying to move up to get Carr or Harrington, so he settled for the best of the three! Great move!

the only thing I remember hearing about winslow doing something stupid last year was when he compared himself to a soldier and it was kill or be killed.

We still have more holes on defence. We've got to sign Taylor. See what an impact Roy Williams made on the Cowboys D? Taylor will do that and more for us. No more cheap TDs over the middle. Anyone going there will have to pay for it!

I think the consesnus here is to draft taylor, but we will have to wait and see what gibb's and co. have up thier sleeve, I like the fact that we don't know what direction they are leaning, it's not good to reveal your hand it takes away some of your leverage come draft day.

Hrm, I love Ramsey, but you gotta give Carr his respect!

[QUOTE=Defensewins]I forgot, what was the minor controversy last year in regards to Kellen Winslow Jr.? I think he might have done something regretable in a game and later blew up about it to a reporter in the locker room after the game? Something like that....I forgot what he did. Does anyone remember?[/QUOTE]

He started referring to himself as a "soldier" and in a time of war, I don't think the American public wanted to hear about some college kid acting like he was a man or something.....

I think people misunderstood him. I think he was trying to be respectfull of our armed service men. Reporters need to give athletes a chance to calm down after a game. These guys just ran around in the heat for an hour and you want to ask them questions directly afterward. My favorites are when they ask political questions. Like hhe cares, he's tired, let the man have a break!