Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

Lost in all the focus on the struggles of the defense is the fact the offense is coming up short in two critical categories, 3rd down conversions (18% - last in the league) and red zone offense (22%, 2 TDs out of 9 possessions - again last in the league).

Improving in these 2 categories will keep the defense off the field and lead to more points. Just wanted to bring this topic up since the defense is receiving such a huge brunt of our criticism, but it's obvious the offense needs to shoulder some blame as well.

Thoughts?

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

Red zone offense tends to be a function of the strength of the rest of your offense. We can improve that by getting stronger on the lines and at running the ball.

3rd downs are an issue. We're a terrible team out of the shotgun/3 WR package, and we don't have any creative plays out of that package. I just don't see that getting better anytime soon.

We've protected the quarterback alright (not great) on those third and longs, but teams can cover all of our receivers down the field.

One reason that 3rd down percentage is lower than last year is because we have to pass in short yardage as well, which makes every third down as difficult as a third and seven.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

I think 3rd downs on both sides of the ball is the biggest issue. I realize you are trying to focus on the offense here but by god I have never seen so many 3rd and longs given up in my life.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

Getting the ground game cranked up and staying out of 3rd and longs would be nice too of course.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

I agree 100%, which is why I have a hard time understanding why Devin Thomas isn't used at all in the red zone. The dude is big, strong WR and can go and get the ball. Again, we are the only freaking NFL team that has a problem running fade routes, or jump balls in the endzone. It killed me last year when Malcome Kelly was on the bench and we couldn't do that in the redzone. Kelly is what 6'4, Thomas is 6'2. they have a minimum of 2-3 inches on an average corner. If he supposedly can't run routes and forgot how to play, he can at least jump for a ball or run a simple fade. Also, Where has cooley and Davis been in the redzone? Or how bout a bootleg? I am not a coach, but for some reason over the last how many years, our playbook goes to shit when we get inside the 20.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

Redzone playcalling I think has been rather poor. We are not using the middle of field and it seems we are not using our both our tight ends which is a freakin strength.

3rd down is just god aweful. I have no clue on anything here, we just stink.

Not having an effective running game is killing us in both these areas.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

The Skins best WR (Moss) is just too small to be a factor in the Red Zone and cant win jump balls. Everyone know the Skins cant run the ball and cant do a fade route with their small WRs so IMO it makes them easy to defend.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

with the redzone i know kyle (or mike or both) have said that running the ball in the redzone is a major priority for their offense to balance the attack and d schemes in that part of the field.

i, like other posters on here have also stated, that it was frustrating to see us try and run the ball twice in a row in the redzone last week for 1-2 yards an attempt.

with that said, play actions and naked bootlegs have been very effective in the redzone so maybe, even though running the ball in the redzone by itself isnt all that effective, by committing to the run in the redzone, defenses must honor the run and it is setting us up for successful play actions, etc.

i remember the first couple of series against the boys we were converting on 3rd and longs every time.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=mredskins;741372]I think 3rd downs on both sides of the ball is the biggest issue. I realize you are trying to focus on the offense here but by god I have never seen so many 3rd and longs given up in my life.[/quote]Yeah, even if you're going to lose the game anyway, giving up 3rd & 20 conversions are just inexcusable efforts.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=GTripp0012;741380]Yeah, even if you're going to lose the game anyway, giving up 3rd & 20 conversions are just inexcusable efforts.[/quote]


Seriously! 3rd and 20 is like OK bathroom break or grab a beer not with this team it is TD for the other team!

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

Crazy to think we're tied for last in the league in 3rd down conversions with the 3-0 Pittsburgh Steelers.

Sometimes to really understand why a team is struggling in 3rd down conversions is to look at their 2nd down attempts. I haven't done this, but I would be interested to know how many 3rd and longs they've had to face. (which I believe Matty also alluded to)

Our Red Zone offense is consistently abysmal

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=Mattyk;741373]Getting the ground game cranked up and staying out of 3rd and longs would be nice too of course.[/quote]

Yeah, without statistical evidence I'd say we seem to be in 3rd and long a hell of a lot. That is killer. It's a lot easier to get creative on 3rd & 3.5 rather than 3rd & 9. I'd also like to see Portis in on 3rd more often.

I'd dont see why leaving him in to chip and release would be bad. Especially on a 3rd and mid-range.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

Skins are 6/33 on 3rd downs. 6 conversions in 3 games?? That's insanely bad.

What's interesting is they kick ass on 1st downs and average something close to 8 yards an per play. So something appears to be going horribly wrong on 2nd downs.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=SmootSmack;741382]Our Red Zone offense is consistently abysmal[/quote]

Personnel.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=Mattyk;741386]Skins are 6/33 on 3rd downs. 6 conversions in 3 games?? That's insanely bad.

What's interesting is they kick ass on 1st downs and average something close to 8 yards an per play. So something appears to be going horribly wrong on 2nd downs.[/quote]

I can remember off hand at least 3 times we've penaltied our way out of 3rd and shorts. So it is probably more like 5 or 6 times we've done. Remember too in the Dallas game we made some 3rd and longs early on. In fact we only seemed to be able to make 3rd and longs.

With a mobile QB we should be much more efficient on 3rd. It's like we rely on McNabb on 1st and 2nd then on 3rd we panic and make terribly awful play calls.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

And this is putting our D on the field too much.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=irish;741377]The Skins best WR (Moss) is just too small to be a factor in the Red Zone and cant win jump balls. Everyone know the Skins cant run the ball and cant do a fade route with their small WRs so IMO it makes them easy to defend.[/quote]

Irish, it........breaks my heart to agree with you, alas I do. I nearly wretched the other day when Andre Johnson pulled in the pass...easliy in the end zone over our guy.
If we do not get D Thomas or ??? in the act and with our lack of credible ground game, we are easy to defend. When was the last time on 3rd and 3, we even....thought about a run play?
HOWEVER...it is encumbent on "the boy genius" to realize these facts and DEAL with it

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=Hog1;741390]Irish, it........breaks my heart to agree with you, alas I do. I nearly wretched the other day when Andre Johnson pulled in the pass...easliy in the end zone over our guy.
If we do not get D Thomas or ??? in the act and with our lack of credible ground game, we are easy to defend. When was the last time on 3rd and 3, we even....thought about a run play?
HOWEVER...it is encumbent on "the boy genius" to realize these facts and DEAL with it[/quote]

Its not that the Little General doesnt understand what to do, he realizes he doesnt have the players to do what he wants. If he thought Thomas or ??? could get it done they'd be in there. He's trying to find a way to deal with it but when you dont have the players to get it done it makes things tough.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=irish;741401]Its not that the Little General doesnt understand what to do, he realizes he doesnt have the players to do what he wants. [SIZE=4]If he thought Thomas or ???[/SIZE] could get it done they'd be in there. He's trying to find a way to deal with it but when you dont have the players to get it done it makes things tough.[/quote]
I hear you. It's not like this is original thought. I imagine he gave up sleep some time ago trying to contrive, and scheme some genius for our Offensive shortcomings...HTTR

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=Mattyk;741386]Skins are 6/33 on 3rd downs. 6 conversions in 3 games?? That's insanely bad.

What's interesting is they kick ass on 1st downs and average something close to 8 yards an per play. So something appears to be going horribly wrong on 2nd downs.[/quote]I'm just looking back at my notes from the first three games, and it certainly appears that the tendency after an unsuccessful first down play (and we've had our share of successful ones for sure) is to reverse trend. If it's an incomplete pass, we like to run or screen in second down. If we ran for little gain, we like to take a shot, either at the sticks or down the field.

It's a strong trend.

The result appears to be a severe reliance on getting a big play when we try it. If not, a third down is nearly inevitable. And obviously, that third down figure is going to regress towards the mean a little bit, but it's going to be low as long as we are in third and longs.

And Portis is right that when we do get in third and short, we have the fun ability to get a procedure penalty and back it up to third and long.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

Yeah those 3rd down penalties have killed us a few times.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

VINCENT JACKSON would have fixed that

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

I think that the root of the problem is the offensive line. The right side of the line has struggled to open up holes in the running game, and therefore, our running game has suffered. Clinton portis and torain should be sufficient RBs behind a good offensive line, but trent williams and lichtensteiger have been our only really good run blockers so far this year. Our lack of running game makes us predictable, especially in the red zone, and thus we become easy to defend against.

I like seeing sellers involved; he's a freak athlete and is very versatile, although I cringe when he gets the ball because I'm afraid he'll fumble it lol. His run blocking has been very hit or miss this season - does anyone know what the implications of a zone blocking scheme are for a fullback? And I hope portis can teach torain and keiland or whatever rookie RB we end up with how to pass protect..

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=Mattyk;741369]Lost in all the focus on the struggles of the defense is the fact the offense is coming up short in two critical categories, 3rd down conversions (18% - last in the league) and red zone offense (22%, 2 TDs out of 9 possessions - again last in the league).

Improving in these 2 categories will keep the defense off the field and lead to more points. Just wanted to bring this topic up since the defense is receiving such a huge brunt of our criticism, but it's obvious the offense needs to shoulder some blame as well.
Thoughts?[/quote]

Great topic, its been on my mind.
My take:

This trend is major part of why the Skins are 1-2.
The 3rd down coversion rate is more troubling to me then the RZ rate but imo both are certainly fixable.
Its troubling because it speaks to mindset.
It seems like Kyle/McNabb are content with playing boom or bust football at the sacrifice of ball control and time of possession.
Kyle is an ultra-aggressive playcaller.
He attacks on 1st down and we're No.1 in the league on 1st down yardage.
But, the 1st down aggressiveness has a flip side, because when it result in an incomplete pass it puts the offense behind schedule.
Now its second and long and because we're not married to the run nor are we running the ball well we seem to end up in 2nd and long more then we should which results in too many 3rd and longs.
Which bring us to our terrible 3rd down conversion rate.

To sum up i think part of the problem is that Kyle and McNabb are both very aggresive offensive thinkers.
IMHO Kyle needs to scale his aggressiveness back to accomdate McNabb's own aggressiveness and call more plays geared toward effecieny then quick strike.
For example look at some of the long bombs McNabb has thrown in situations where a high percentage throw with a chance of converting a 1st down and milking the clock would have been more beneficial then a low percentage TD ball.
Being that Kyle and the running game haven't got on track i'm not advocating that Kyle become run 1st (although i wouldn't mind if were able to become a successful running team)
No, i think that Kyle needs to call an offense geared more towards move the chains.
If it means quick-rhythm classic 3-step drop WCO in lieu of the running game, so be it but whatever it should be geared towards putting us in a 2nd down situation that gives us more options (like actually being able to run the ball).
For example at the beginning of the Texans game when Sellers was involved in the short game or the beginning of the Rams game when we ran some quick rhythm stuff from 1 WR Double TE sets.

Oh, and please quit the Zorn-esque WR/TE screen pass on 3rd down.
If there's 1 playcall that makes me scratch my head is a WR/TE screen on 3rd down.

RZ
It seems like Kyle is less aggressive inside the 20 then he is elsewhere on the field. I think they need to throw more into the endzone. I've always felt that once you're in the RZ especially in a goal to go situation you need to throw the ball into the endzone at least twice.

I don't think the problem is personel. I think we have enough people to produce an effective RZ offense. Everyone seems to be hung up on throwing fade passes, but how often do teams throw successful jump-fade in the RZ?

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

Part of the problem is the team is so one dimensional. Not being able to run the ball and not having reliable red-zone receivers only compound the problem.

If the numbers are going to improve, we must establish some semblance of a running game and stay committed to it. [easier said than done] Until then, play action is useless, teams will just ignore it knowing you're not going to run anyway. 6/32 3rd down completions is horrible.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

It all gets back to being able to run the football, particularly on 1st down. We actually lead the league in average yards on 1st down, but that's deceiving since Donovan had two 60+ yard passes against the Texans on 1st down. Converting 3rd downs and sustaining drives becomes much more manageable when it's 3rd and less than 5, which can be done by running the ball more effectively. I want to see A LOT more cut blocking by our O-linemen to make defenders more tentative in the run game.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=SmootSmack;741382]Crazy to think we're tied for last in the league in 3rd down conversions with the 3-0 Pittsburgh Steelers.

Sometimes to really understand why a team is struggling in 3rd down conversions is to look at their 2nd down attempts. I haven't done this, but I would be interested to know how many 3rd and longs they've had to face. (which I believe Matty also alluded to)

Our Red Zone offense is consistently abysmal[/quote]

It doesn't matter cause they have a great defense. Plus they're playing their 4th string QB? 3-0 w/ out Ben is pretty impressive. Troy P. is the MVP of that team. Not Ben.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

Fred Davis might help. He was one of the few bright spots on a bad offense last year. He's a big physical presense in the red zone. Why they're not using him is a complete mystery.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=Mattyk;741386]Skins are 6/33 on 3rd downs. 6 conversions in 3 games?? That's insanely bad.

What's interesting is they kick ass on 1st downs and average something close to 8 yards an per play.[B] So something appears to be going horribly wrong on 2nd downs[/B].[/quote]

You alluded to it earlier- running game epic fail.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=Mattyk;741386]Skins are 6/33 on 3rd downs. 6 conversions in 3 games?? That's insanely bad.

What's interesting is they kick ass on 1st downs and average something close to 8 yards an per play. So something appears to be going horribly wrong on 2nd downs.[/quote]Throw away the two 60+ yard passes on first downs against the Texans, and I would argue that something is seriously wrong on 1st down too. Because of meager 1st and 2nd down production running the ball, we're putting too much pressure on the passing game to convert 3rd and long. I bet that our yards to go on third down is among the highest in the league.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=FRPLG;741385]Yeah, without statistical evidence I'd say we seem to be in 3rd and long a hell of a lot. That is killer. It's a lot easier to get creative on 3rd & 3.5 rather than 3rd & 9. [B]I'd also like to see Portis in on 3rd more often. [/B]

I'd dont see why leaving him in to chip and release would be bad. Especially on a 3rd and mid-range.[/quote]

Without the benefit of data to back this up, from my memory this hits the nail on the head! In the dallas game CP was protecting McNabb from the interior blitz (& Ratcliff), which dallas had no fear in running on virtually every pass play.

In the Houston & Rams games CP didn't play as much in the 2nd half & it showed at crucial times. At this point in his career he really is a 3rd down back, and he makes a huge difference w/blitz pick ups. He covers up how poorly the interior line has played when blitzed.

Of course, can't argue w/those that point out the lack of running game that leads to 3rd & long to begin with.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=GMScud;741416]You alluded to it earlier- running game epic fail.[/quote]

Hey Scud did you get my PM?

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

I just hope we make a game of it on Sunday. Adam Schein actually picked us to win it, but at this point with the pass defense being god awful, we will be lucky to keep the Eagles win margin around the 10-14 pt margin.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

The guys on Inside the NFL split on picking this game as well.

It is amazing that some in the National media are actually picking us to make a game of it.

I think we can win, but it is going to take a hell of an effort by our Team.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

UUUHHHMMM! Ditto? I mean what else can you say? The team needs work all around, if we can sure up a couple of things on both sides of the ball then we are contenders. If not then we are 4-12 all over again.

I have a feeling that we are going to continue to struggle on 3rd down and Redzone because the fact of the matter is that you need BIG targets and a strong running game in both areas. Now if they start using both Cooley and Davis in such situations then we miight have a shot, but they have to go to 2 WR 2 TE sets to do that which make us extremely predictable. Until we have a big WR without injury issues, then things are going to stay the same.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=Angry;741436]UUUHHHMMM! Ditto? I mean what else can you say? The team needs work all around, if we can sure up a couple of things on both sides of the ball then we are contenders. If not then we are 4-12 all over again.

I have a feeling that we are going to continue to struggle on 3rd down and Redzone because the fact of the matter is that you need BIG targets and a strong running game in both areas. Now if they start using both Cooley and Davis in such situations then we miight have a shot, but they have to go to 2 WR 2 TE sets to do that which make us extremely predictable. Until we have a big WR without injury issues, then things are going to stay the same.[/quote]

When did it become a fact that you need a big WR to be successful on 3rd down or in the RZ?

We just need to be more effecient in the passing game.
If our passing game can produce sustained scoring drives everything else will work itself out including the defense.
The onus is on Kyle and McNabb as goes the passing game so go the Redskins.

-PS The 1st half of the Rams game was almost exclusively Double TEs sets.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

I bet Heyer was a big reason for those double TE sets. Goes to show what a dropoff he is from Williams.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

I think we can win, but Philly is going to have to help us in terms of turnovers. They just look really solid to me.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;741406]VINCENT JACKSON would have fixed that[/quote]

No he would have fixed us again giving away draft picks for other teams problem child.

Re: Two big problems on offense: 3rd downs & red zone
 

How is Devin Thomas not getting any time at WR behind Galloway, Armstrong, and Roydell Williams? How is this possible that Devin is worse than a 39 year old WR who can still run but does not threaten the defense. Can we just give Devin a chance and lets see if he can give Santana some help. We will continue to struggle if our other WR can not make plays on the other side.