US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/02/health/research/02infect.html?_r=1&hp"]LINK[/URL]

Impossible to defend. What the hell were they thinking?

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

Well this is an impending shitstorm.

Not to mention that's disgusting and seriously inhumane. Even though it happened over 60 years ago I can't believe they would do something like that. And the fact that they deceived Guatemalan officials in order to do it is even worse. We've done some dumb shit before but not on this level of idiocy. I'm pretty sure reperations are in order too.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

Are you guys really surprised or shocked by the United State's capability and willingness to do something like this?

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=saden1;741450]Are you guys really surprised or shocked by the United State's capability and willingness to do something like this?[/quote]

Sadly the more you think about it, not really. I prefer to just believe shit like this doesn't happen even though you kinda know it does.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

Nazi Germany right here at home. Nice.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=Mattyk;741462]Nazi Germany right here at home. Nice.[/quote]

That's what I thought, especially given the timeframe.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

Reading this, lead me to this:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_experimentation_in_the_United_States]Human experimentation in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

All pretty disgusting stuff.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

That's just crazy. Wow, I don't know what to say. Damn.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

This is what you get from big goverment.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

wWoWw can you say adolf?~!!~!!

I like the fact that Hillary clinton apologized for it. She is secretary of state it would be her job.

Oh and By the Way if you think America wasn't capable of doing things like this remeber the Native Americans lol enough said

But hey im a redskin fan so HTTR what can i say!!:):)

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[url=http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/08/30/panel-reveals-new-details-140s-experiment/]Panel Reveals New Details Of 1940s Experiment | FoxNews.com[/url]

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

It was horrible and wrong, but, with that said: Communism, National Socialism, Western European Liberal Democracy.

Feel free to rank them from best to worst in protecting individual rights and "doing good" in the world.

Look, we have many blotches in our past. Unlike many other societies, we are able to say "Oops - we screwed up". Sometimes it takes a while and there may be some hand ringing, but, ultimately, we are okay with fessing up to our imperfections, recognizing them as imperfections and trying to prevent them from happening again. Many in Japan, for example, are in denial about its "Rape of Nanking" (most acknowledge it).

We aren't perfect. At least we admit it.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

For the crown of the most sinful nation in the history of the world America is in direct line of succession. Though knowing there are less perfect and more sinful members of the royal family ahead of us make one feel at ease.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=saden1;829134][B]For the crown of the most sinful nation in the history of the world America is in direct line of succession. [/B]Though knowing there are less perfect and more sinful members of the royal family ahead of us make one feel at ease.[/quote]

Not even close.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=firstdown;829140]Not even close.[/quote]

Only because you sell America short.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

Come on we are talking about letting prisoners bang prostitutes to see what happens. I'm guessing we had a line around the jail. I fell sorry fo the mental patients because it sounds like they got injected and did not get the chance to bang the prostitutes.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

You Prankster....always ready for a party!

[QUOTE=firstdown;829248]Come on we are talking about letting prisoners bang prostitutes to see what happens. I'm guessing we had a line around the jail. I fell sorry fo the mental patients because it sounds like they got injected and did not get the chance to bang the prostitutes.[/QUOTE]

And this is why the world hates us...facepalm

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;829126]It was horrible and wrong, but, with that said: Communism, National Socialism, Western European Liberal Democracy.

Feel free to rank them from best to worst in protecting individual rights and "doing good" in the world.

Look, we have many blotches in our past. Unlike many other societies, we are able to say "Oops - we screwed up". Sometimes it takes a while and there may be some hand ringing, but, ultimately, we are okay with fessing up to our imperfections, recognizing them as imperfections and trying to prevent them from happening again. Many in Japan, for example, are in denial about its "Rape of Nanking" (most acknowledge it).

We aren't perfect. At least we admit it.[/QUOTE]

Yeah but acknowledging doesn't make it ok.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=hooskins;829257]And this is why the world hates us...facepalm[/quote]

No. The world hates us b/c we preach an ideal (respect for individual human rights and supremacy of the individual over the State) but, as a practical matter, fail to live up to this utopian ideal by our use of the necessary Real Politik that preserves the society preaching these ideals.

In other words, the rest of the world latches onto our flaws in order to justify the envy based hatred of our success. Simply put, we are an easy target b/c we are not (shockers) perfect, yet we preach and, as a society, assert an idealic goal.

It's easy to hate the Patriots.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

Im not shocked or surprised by this revelation,hell I think you'd be naive to think the government is still not doing something else like this somewhere

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=hooskins;829259]Yeah but acknowledging doesn't make it ok.[/quote]

Of course not. Are any mainstream Americans asserting this was acceptable behavior?

We (collectively as a society) have made mistakes. Please, demonstrate any other society - that had the equivalent hegemony we have do today - that openly admitted the error of its past actions. I can't think of any (Disclaimer: I am wayyyyyyyyyyy drunk right now).

We are human. We make mistakes - both individually and corporately. Rather than attempting to justify these mistakes as a society (recognizing that the firstdown outliers exist in any large grouping of humanity), we (the citizens of the US) generally acknowledge our "mistakes" and strive to ensure that they do not happen again (haven't seen any Muslim internment camps lately a la' the Japanese camps of WWII). What more can you ask of a group of people? Perfection in all actions and decisions? Idiocy. Perfection is simply beyond our corporate ken. ("For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God": Romans, 3:23)

If you expect perfect harmony between the goals of a society and its actual actions, you are doomed to naysaying and bitterness. It is always good and right to seek and work for such harmony, but the expectation of such is foolish.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=htownskinfan;829264]Im not shocked or surprised by this revelation,hell I think you'd be naive to think the government is still not doing something else like this somewhere[/quote]

Of course we are. Somewhere w/in the government/military, someone focused on a specific goal - that is broadly beneficial to the rest of us - is saying "Hey! This is a great way to accomplish the broad goal". In doing so, they, and others in power, fail to see the base wrongness of their actions or, if seeing the wrongness, justify the evil means as neccessary to satisfy an altruistic end.

Again, we are not perfect.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=saden1;829147]Only because you sell America short.[/quote]

Outside of our participation in WWI, WWII and the Korean War, please show me where we rank on the list of 20th Century atrocities.


[quote] In a way, it's rather disheartening to realize that we can't smugly blame the brutality of the century on the Communists, or the imperialists, or the Moslem fundamentalists, or the godless. Every major category of human has done it's share to boost the body count, so replacing, say, Moslem rulers with Christian rulers, or white rulers with black rulers, is not going to change it at all. [/quote]

[url=http://users.rcn.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm]Twentieth Century Atlas - Top Ranked Atrocities[/url]

Yet, with that said, there is nothing on the list to show a major bloodletting [I]caused[/I] by the US.

Comparisons of this despicable action to the Nazis devalues the evil caused by the dehumanization of "non-aryans" by German National Socialists and the concommit genocidal and meglomaniacal killings. The "ideal" of the Nazis was a world dominated by the Master Race; the "ideal" of the US, however, is a world where individual rights are respected and basic human rights are assured (Read the preamble and the Bill of Rights).

Fortunately, the Nazis failed in accomplishing their goal. Unfortunately, due to human imperfection, the US's goal is impossible to accomplish. In our world, utopian societies of any significant size do not, can not and will not ever exist.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;829268]Outside of our participation in WWI, WWII and the Korean War, please show me where we rank on the list of 20th Century atrocities.




[URL="http://users.rcn.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm"]Twentieth Century Atlas - Top Ranked Atrocities[/URL]

Yet, with that said, there is nothing on the list to show a major bloodletting [I]caused[/I] by the US.

Comparisons of this despicable action to the Nazis devalues the evil caused by the dehumanization of "non-aryans" by German National Socialists and the concommit genocidal and meglomaniacal killings. The "ideal" of the Nazis was a world dominated by the Master Race; the "ideal" of the US, however, is a world where individual rights are respected and basic human rights are assured (Read the preamble and the Bill of Rights).

Fortunately, the Nazis failed in accomplishing their goal. Unfortunately, due to human imperfection, the US's goal is impossible to accomplish. In our world, utopian societies of any significant size do not, can not and will not ever exist.[/quote]Great posts Joe. Unfortunately you won't change people's minds. Those who love to bash America choose to ignore the truth, that despite our past shortcomings (which have almost all been corrected over time) we are the greatest force for individual freedom and good the world has ever seen.

Another beauty of this country.....it's citizens are free to leave any time they like.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=saden1;829147]Only because you sell America short.[/quote]

For all its many faults at least the U.S. has checks and balances in place, unlike most of the World.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=saden1;741450]Are you guys really surprised or shocked by the United State's capability and willingness to do something like this?[/quote]

This pretty much echos my sentiment. I don't put anything past our government.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;829268]Outside of our participation in WWI, WWII and the Korean War, please show me where we rank on the list of 20th Century atrocities.




[url=http://users.rcn.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm]Twentieth Century Atlas - Top Ranked Atrocities[/url]

Yet, with that said, there is nothing on the list to show a major bloodletting [I]caused[/I] by the US.

Comparisons of this despicable action to the Nazis devalues the evil caused by the dehumanization of "non-aryans" by German National Socialists and the concommit genocidal and meglomaniacal killings. The "ideal" of the Nazis was a world dominated by the Master Race; the "ideal" of the US, however, is a world where individual rights are respected and basic human rights are assured (Read the preamble and the Bill of Rights).

Fortunately, the Nazis failed in accomplishing their goal. Unfortunately, due to human imperfection, the US's goal is impossible to accomplish. In our world, utopian societies of any significant size do not, can not and will not ever exist.[/quote]

I suppose the deaths of Native Americans, the African Salves and the Chines rail road worker don't count? America was born out of sin, into sin and and will die in sin. I am quite tired of people making indirect apologies for it and using deflection. America doesn't need defending nor does it deserve defending.


The American: Look, we're not nearly as evil and we are aware of our evils.
The Canadian: Everyone is aware of their evil.
The Nazi: Exactly. At the end of the day the dead are still dead.
The Maoist: General Mao said "Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy."
The American: Huh?
The Nazi: I hate communism.
The American: Back to what I was saying. I think it matters how you kill people. The way you Nazis killed the Jews was cold blooded.
The Nazi: It was. I would have done it more mercifully.
The Maoist: In time of difficulties, we must not lose sight of our achievements.
The Nazi: What difficulties?
The American: Never mind him.
The Maoist: It's another quote from the great General Mao.
The Maoist: The atom bomb is a paper tiger which the United States reactionaries use to scare people. It looks terrible, but in fact it isn't.
The American: Another Mao quote?
The Maoist: Uh-huh.
The Canadian: I wonder what Mao would say if they dropped it on his head.
The Maoist: It's always darkest before it's totally black.
The American: I am sorry but America is nothing like these other evil evildoers and will always be special.
The Canadian: You're not special. Don't forget that low hanging fruit and your blankets. We have a train to catch.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

If the rest of the world hates us then why the hell won't they stop coming here? Like Saden would say. I guess we need to try harder.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=firstdown;829562]If the rest of [COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"]the world hates[/SIZE][/COLOR] us then why the hell won't they stop coming here? Like Saden would say. I guess we need to try harder.[/quote]


For the same reason the poor hate the rich and powerful.
I'm fine with that.
Besides thats just the theme song libs and treehuggers came up with during the Bush administration. Kinda like the no blood for oil bullshit.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=RedskinRat;829461]For all its many faults at least the U.S. has checks and balances in place, unlike most of the World.[/quote]

In the face of money and ideology I can't honestly say our checks and balances matter as much anymore. The balance been tilting like The Leaning Tower of Pisa ever since its inception and the checks part, well, it has been sinking like The Titanic.

Complacency has set in. Statesmanship has decayed. Only rusting remains.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

How long ago was this?
As disgusting as it was you may as well apologize to Mexico for taking Texas from them.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=saden1;829538]I suppose the deaths of Native Americans, the African Salves and the Chines rail road worker don't count? America was born out of sin, into sin and and will die in sin. I am quite tired of people making indirect apologies for it and using deflection. America doesn't need defending nor does it deserve defending.[/quote]

I said 20th century. Yup, in the 19th Century, we ignored the words of our own Declaration and that proclamation "all men are created equal" and, as a practical matter, did exactly what the Nazis did which was to justify slavery, murder and war by dehumanizing all who weren't white, protestant, Europeans. Was it wrong? Yup. Did we as a nation shed blood and treasure to rectify these wrongs? Yup. Do we still spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year to try and repair some of the damage done? Yup.

Of course this nation was flawed in its origin and continues to be so and will always be so. What nation, made of humans, wasn't "born in sin"? Where on this earth is that not true? Where would the utopian nation you seem to think "defensible" exist? Would its utopian nature survive its expansion and application to 300,000,000 million people of diverse cultural backgrounds. When we find wrongs, we seek to change them. Just like individuals, sometimes the wrong is seen only in retrospect.

"Die in sin"? Most definitely. Just not anytime soon. Again, humans aren't timeless and nothing we create is either wheter it be monuments or governmental structures. The US we know will die eventually b/c it is made of imperfect and finite people. Perhaps the rust and decline has begun - perhaps not.

Indirect apologies? Deflection? Not sure what you mean here, I have an idea but before I respond, would like an actual clarification.

"Doesn't deserve defending"? So although individuals may redeem themselves, the societies of which they are part of cannot? As a nation, unlike the Nazis, Stalinists or Maoists, we have changed for the better and continue to do so. Other nations have done the same, but in terms of size, none have done so on the scale that the US has in its 200+ years of existence. From a small restrictive plutocracy of landed merchants and farmers, we have expanded, granted, and protected individual freedoms to more people than other country before us. I would agree that our government should not be blindly or unquestionally defended in all its actions (past or present), but the ideals set forth in our founding documents are most definitely deserving of defense. Failure to defend the structure - flawed though it may be - built on those ideals risks their loss entirely.

To emerge from the muck of tyranny and injustice, a nation and its people will inevitably get dirty.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

I guess I need to also apologize to Mexico for that Mexican chick I bang and never called back (my sgl days). I guess I could also apologize to Italy and Sweden for the same thing. I almost have to apologize to China and Japan.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

I apologize for rap, disco and Michael Moore.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=saden1;829591]In the face of money and ideology I can't honestly say our checks and balances matter as much anymore. The balance been tilting like The Leaning Tower of Pisa ever since its inception and the checks part, well, [B]it has been sinking like The Titanic[/B].

Complacency has set in. Statesmanship has decayed. Only rusting remains.[/quote]
[URL="http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/09/01/america-is-not-titantic/?test=faces"]America Is Not The Titantic | FoxNews.com[/URL]

"Nothing short of citizens one by one looking into the abyss and then into the mirror, and vowing “Not on my watch,” will begin to remedy the responsibility deficit and break the entitlement addiction that’s killing us.
But break it we can. America has been here before, remember. Written off by declinists in the 1970s, she came roaring back in the ‘80s after responsibility was reborn in the heartland. All of us are crew members on this voyage, not just passengers."

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;829625]I apologize for rap, disco and Michael Moore.[/quote]

Disco Rocks.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKdVq_vNAAI&feature=related]Bee Gees, Staying alive - YouTube[/ame]

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;829619]I said 20th century. Yup, in the 19th Century, we ignored the words of our own Declaration and that proclamation "all men are created equal" and, as a practical matter, did exactly what the Nazis did which was to justify slavery, murder and war by dehumanizing all who weren't white, protestant, Europeans. Was it wrong? Yup. Did we as a nation shed blood and treasure to rectify these wrongs? Yup. Do we still spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year to try and repair some of the damage done? Yup.

Of course this nation was flawed in its origin and continues to be so and will always be so. What nation, made of humans, wasn't "born in sin"? Where on this earth is that not true? Where would the utopian nation you seem to think "defensible" exist? Would its utopian nature survive its expansion and application to 300,000,000 million people of diverse cultural backgrounds. When we find wrongs, we seek to change them. Just like individuals, sometimes the wrong is seen only in retrospect.

"Die in sin"? Most definitely. Just not anytime soon. Again, humans aren't timeless and nothing we create is either wheter it be monuments or governmental structures. The US we know will die eventually b/c it is made of imperfect and finite people. Perhaps the rust and decline has begun - perhaps not.

Indirect apologies? Deflection? Not sure what you mean here, I have an idea but before I respond, would like an actual clarification.

"Doesn't deserve defending"? So although individuals may redeem themselves, the societies of which they are part of cannot? As a nation, unlike the Nazis, Stalinists or Maoists, we have changed for the better and continue to do so. Other nations have done the same, but in terms of size, none have done so on the scale that the US has in its 200+ years of existence. From a small restrictive plutocracy of landed merchants and farmers, we have expanded, granted, and protected individual freedoms to more people than other country before us. I would agree that our government should not be blindly or unquestionally defended in all its actions (past or present), but the ideals set forth in our founding documents are most definitely deserving of defense. Failure to defend the structure - flawed though it may be - built on those ideals risks their loss entirely.

To emerge from the muck of tyranny and injustice, a nation and its people will inevitably get dirty.[/quote]


To me every country has redeemable qualities. Clearly the German people have redeemed themselves as much as anyone can. Russia is a far cry from Stalin's USSR. Ditto for Mao's China. I mean, China is out there doing a lot of work in Africa to build their infrastructure while lending America money to wage it's wars. Granted a lot of China work in Africa is out of self-interest but a lot of good nonetheless.


What I mean by indirect apologies is the swiftness of response to basically point out how less faulty we are and how comparatively noble our system is. I would prefer we say "We fcked up. we should apologize and make up for it" rather than "Man, this is bad but it's not as bad as those Nazis who did the same shit at a much larger scale. Plus we're the nicest country in the world except those instances we weren't so nice." Let Americas body of work stand for itself and lets judge the good things and the bad things on their own merit without having to do addition and subtraction to mask the dump we just took with an air fresher and pretend our shit stinks but not that bad.

I can't honestly say America has transformed itself on larger scale, more rapidly and for the better compared to China, Korea, Japan, and Germany. Granted, those are homogeneous societies but unlike america they weren't built to be diverse. Have they improved their people's condition more so than United States has? On the subject of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline"]slavery[/URL] I would have to find out when these respective countries abolish slavery and what that meant? Was the aftermath as bad as Jim Crow?

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;829677][URL="http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/09/01/america-is-not-titantic/?test=faces"]America Is Not The Titantic | FoxNews.com[/URL]

"Nothing short of citizens one by one looking into the abyss and then into the mirror, and vowing “Not on my watch,” will begin to remedy the responsibility deficit and break the entitlement addiction that’s killing us.
But break it we can. America has been here before, remember. Written off by declinists in the 1970s, [B]she came roaring back in the ‘80s after responsibility was reborn in the heartland.[/B] All of us are crew members on this voyage, not just passengers."[/quote]

That shit made me chuckle. Seriously, funny article.

Throwing the captain overboard is not going to prevent the ship from sinking. We should be throwing the lobbyists and the loud politicians overboard as they weights the most and the least likely to be missed. That at least should buy us more time.

Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments
 

firstdown, Alvin Walton...don't exert yourselves.

God, Country, Family. USA! USA! USA!