North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

Oh man. No bueno.

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101123/wl_afp/nkoreaskoreamilitarynuclearweapons_20101123092327]North Korea fires artillery barrage on South - Yahoo! News[/url]

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

Yeah I saw this earlier. Not good news.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

Act of war.

Not good. I wonder how long "we'll" ignore it.

The world is $#@%ed if China gets involved on either side.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

Well if China came out and rebuked the North for doing this, then it would all fizzle out real quickly, because with both us and China on the same side, nobody would start sh*t up.

I know China has a bit of a relationship with the North but they're also civil and aware of their place in world politics. They'll likely stay silent, but if anything they'd make a statement rebuking it.

I don't see them fighting over this. I don't see us fighting over it either, unless the North tries to launch a full scale attack on the South.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

im glad someone started a thread on this as this could go on for awhile. imo from what ive been reading in articles for a few years now on NK is that they do this with new leadership as some kind of commencement ritual. writers have been calling this for awhile.

so NK can tell its people, the new leader Ill the 3rd just tactifully and masterfully sunk a SK naval ship but SK is way to scared to retaliate against wartime mastermind Ill the 3rd. Hail!

but . . i dont understand why, given the high tension, that SK would be testing artillery in waters which are close to NK, i just dont get that. you know NK are hot heads and wil do anything they can to start some kind of int'l crisis so they can get some int'l aid/incentive to calm down. i guess we pay the payoff to keep mellow, not SK.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

[quote=Buster;762139]Act of war.

Not good. I wonder how long "we'll" ignore it.

The world is $#@%ed if China gets involved on either side.[/quote]

imo china is too smart to be interested in old school war. they are more interested in being the dominant economic force in the world which would make them much more powerful in this day and age than any gun or missle woud allow.

i also have a theory that iran is not interested in actual military war as much as they wanted/tried and are still trying to make the US dollar become weak by forging oil rich alliances with other countries and priv companies that would use exclusively the euro thereby increasing a large amount of US dollar into euro financial shift. i didnt explain it well, it was a theory i developed years ago and then actually found a few articles supporting and talking about my theory. much like my aliens exist theory which s. hawkins pretty much stole from me, logical step by logical step. bastard.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

[quote=over the mountain;762152][B]imo china is too smart to be interested in old school war.[/B] they are more interested in being the dominant economic force in the world which would make them much more powerful in this day and age than any gun or missle woud allow.

i also have a theory that iran is not interested in actual military war as much as they wanted/tried and are still trying to make the US dollar become weak by forging oil rich alliances with other countries and priv companies that would use exclusively the euro thereby increasing a large amount of US dollar into euro financial shift. i didnt explain it well, it was a theory i developed years ago and then actually found a few articles supporting and talking about my theory. much like my aliens exist theory which s. hawkins pretty much stole from me, logical step by logical step. bastard.[/quote]

If this is the case, I wonder if China will try to squash this. I think you're right here, CHina doesn't want a war in its doorstep, and hopefully they'll strong-arm North Korea to stop.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

Hey, what do Lee Majors, Rachael Ray, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Scarlett Johanson, Hedge funds, Kim Zolciak, Aubrey Huff, Smartphone apps, and the Stock market have in common? Well according to the Yahoo Trending now list they're all more important then the North Korea Attack.
[IMG]http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad93/CapsXXVI/Trendingnow.jpg[/IMG]

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

China has 2 billion people. They do not want chaos. They just want to be left alone (from international issues and worldwide rules like the pollution policies) to grow their economy and silently take over the role as world superpower. However, if they're forced to become engaged in this or any war...they have a nearly unlimited number of troops and can just outlast anyone. We know their Government has little value for human life...they'll sacrifice a billion people if they see a benefit to the State.

I do think North Korea feels a little emboldened and unthreatened in these actions. The world does not fear or really respect our current President's weak/appeasement approach to conflicts. Plus, they probably recognize that our military is not entirely available and our economy is weakened...so we won't be quick to rush to our ally's assistance. We've already stepped away from Israel...could South Korea be next?

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;762165]Hey, what do Lee Majors, Rachael Ray, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Scarlett Johanson, Hedge funds, Kim Zolciak, Aubrey Huff, Smartphone apps, and the Stock market have in common? Well according to the Yahoo Trending now list they're all more important then the North Korea Attack.
[IMG]http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad93/CapsXXVI/Trendingnow.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

:doh:

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

What's up with Lee Majors?

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

I know what Lavar would say about north korea, get'em get'em

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

[quote=Mattyk;762168]What's up with Lee Majors?[/quote]

Umm Oprah! Like duh
[IMG]http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad93/CapsXXVI/Lee.jpg[/IMG]

Also a quick update Jesus Statue has replaced North Korea at the 10 spot while somehow Kourtney Kardashian has leaped all the way up to #4. I'm not a political type whatsoever but even I know that this is a pretty big deal.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

Interesting article on the Chinese military: [url=http://www.upiasia.com/Security/2008/10/31/chinas_potential_for_military_aggression/3967/]China’s potential for military aggression - upiasia.com[/url]

It's two years old but probably still has some relevance.

The idea that Chinese don't want a war seems to be a common assumption. I would suggest that the Chinese don't want a war that they might lose. It seems to me, that the Chinese have never had a problem rattling their sabre a little - mostly over US involvement with Taiwan. Yes, their focus is on their economy right now. But let's not confuse them with a great beneficial "how do we build a better world" country. China's historic view of itself is very self-centered (as much or more so than the US - I would suggest both countries view themselves as countries of "destiny").

I suspect that this is simply NK & SK spitting at each other. So long as none of the regional powers over react, I suspect this will settle down into the minor border dispute it is. IMHO, it is something serious but not imminently dangerous at this time. Kind of like a boiling pot that just needs to be watched.

Here's a question for you: If NK launches an attack (full frontal invasion) of SK - Currently, the US has ~ 28,500 personnel in SK - what should our response be? Do we fight? Evacuate US personnel to Japan? What if China supports the invasion? Either with personnel or material.

Yes, I think it is completely hypothetical, but I am just curious what everyone's reaction would be. I am torn - I wouldn't want [I]my[/I] son dying for SK, but we have basically told them "We got your back". Japan/Taiwan get invaded and that's a different story but hard for me to get worked up about Korea.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

[quote=Ruhskins;762158]If this is the case, I wonder if China will try to squash this. I think you're right here, CHina doesn't want a war in its doorstep, and hopefully they'll strong-arm North Korea to stop.[/quote]

North Korea ain't ish without China. They're responsible for a big chunk of NK's economy, not too mention they supply about half of NK's food. If China wants NK to stop, they'll stop.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

More on Chinese military: [url=http://www.sinodefence.com/army/default.asp]Chinese Ground Forces - SinoDefence.com[/url]

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

[quote=GMScud;762186]North Korea ain't ish without China. They're responsible for a big chunk of NK's economy, not too mention they supply about half of NK's food. If China wants NK to stop, they'll stop.[/quote]

Yup. Pretty much.

From a Reuters article:
China expressed worry after North Korea shelled a South Korean island on Tuesday in the latest escalation of tensions on the Korean peninsula that neighbours the world's second-biggest economy.
[url=http://in.news.yahoo.com/137/20101123/760/twl-factbox-ties-binding-china-and-north.html]FACTBOX - Ties binding China and North Korea - Yahoo! India News[/url]

I am betting China does it's usual and tells NK "stop" in no uncertain terms. At the same time, NK ain't exactly run by the most rational people in the world. To me, that's the scary part.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

I have no idea who Lee Majors is. Is he worth knowing?

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;762165]Hey, what do Lee Majors, Rachael Ray, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Scarlett Johanson, Hedge funds, Kim Zolciak, Aubrey Huff, Smartphone apps, and the Stock market have in common? Well according to the Yahoo Trending now list they're all more important then the North Korea Attack.
[IMG]http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad93/CapsXXVI/Trendingnow.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

All I have to say about this is....

[IMG]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/2993244653_82aceb0b9e.jpg[/IMG]

China is developing a aircraft carrier "buster". A missile designed purposely to take out a carrier in the middle of its carrier group. This is actually a major advance purposely designed against the US fleet. To think that they are content as number 2 is not realistic. That said, as long as north korea can act as a buffer state they aren't going to do much more than lip service to stop the north koreans.

To answer JoeRedskin. If your scenario presented itself we would have to engage, we are too deeply entreched to up and pull out. Would I want to go to war over them, no, would the us have too? Yes

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

But what ever you do don't call them the axes of evil.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

For the Ignorant Americans, here is a map:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Inchon_islands_2.svg]File:Inchon islands 2.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Did love this line from a recent article:
"SEOUL — North Korea on Wednesday [B]accused Seoul of "reckless military provocation"[/B] — a day after an artillery attack left at least four people dead on a South Korean island." [url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40349704/ns/world_news-asiapacific/]North Korea says region is on 'brink of war' - World news - Asia-Pacific - North Korea - msnbc.com[/url]

Wait, you shell their island and then accuse SK of "provocation" b/c they are pissed that you shelled them?? Wow. News flash: Joetheismanfan has taken a job with the North Korean publicity office.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;762381]For the Ignorant Americans, here is a map:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Inchon_islands_2.svg]File:Inchon islands 2.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Did love this line from a recent article:
"SEOUL — North Korea on Wednesday [B]accused Seoul of "reckless military provocation"[/B] — a day after an artillery attack left at least four people dead on a South Korean island." [url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40349704/ns/world_news-asiapacific/]North Korea says region is on 'brink of war' - World news - Asia-Pacific - North Korea - msnbc.com[/url]

Wait, you shell their island and then accuse SK of "provocation" b/c they are pissed that you shelled them?? Wow. News flash: Joetheismanfan has taken a job with the North Korean publicity office.[/quote]

Not defending NK, because they clearly want to saber rattle. SK is holding drills in the waterway that NK disputes, and that is where they claim the provocation comes from.

Sending an aircraft carrier would seem to me to be a statement that the US is concerned about the North's intentions.

edit:
imagine if Mexico claimed that Texas was actually part of Mexico, and held war games there, would the US just kinda shrug our shoulders? Of course that isn't a perfect analogy, maybe it is barely related, but it was the best I could think of.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

For people who don't know where South Korea is I found an easy way to remember. Its just south of North Korea.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;762393]Not defending NK, because they clearly want to saber rattle. SK is holding drills in the waterway that NK disputes, and that is where they claim the provocation comes from.

Sending an aircraft carrier would seem to me to be a statement that the US is concerned about the North's intentions.

edit:
imagine if Mexico claimed that Texas was actually part of Mexico, and held war games there, would the US just kinda shrug our shoulders? Of course that isn't a perfect analogy, maybe it is barely related, but it was the best I could think of.[/quote]

The only thing I have read about SK holding drills in those waters is from NK which we can only take with a grain of salt without other proof.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

[quote=firstdown;762402]The only thing I have read about SK holding drills in those waters is from NK which we can only take with a grain of salt without other proof.[/quote]

South Korea admitted: 1) conducting drills in disputed waters; 2) firing shells.

"Pyongyang accused the South of firing first. The Southern military said it had conducted exercises but shelling was directed away from the North."
[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11818005]BBC News - North Korean artillery hits South Korean island‎[/url]

Not saying this provides an excuse to shell innocent civilians.

Similarly, CRR, in your hypothetical, the problem is that it was occuring in disputed waters which are slightly more amorphous than the Mexican army marching north of the Rio Grande to conduct drills. If Mexico conducted naval drills in US waters, I suspect they would be kindly asked to leave by a couple of USAAF wings who might, while conducting drills of their own, accidently drop a few air to surface missiles near some Mexican ships. Regardless, I doubt anything short of an armed invasion of undisputed US territory would provoke the US into shelling civilian areas.

SK & NK govts. extremely dislike each other and would like to wipe the other off the face of the earth. BUT - neither of there supporters are willing to just let them duke it out. So, like two little kids who don't like each other, they do everything they can to provoke the other into starting a fight so they can claim self-defense.

Just reading the reports, I think this will blow over although China is royally pissed that we parked an aircraft carrier group off their border in support of SK. Pretty sure we would feel the same if they, in support of NK, gunned up right next to Japanese waters.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;762420]South Korea admitted: 1) conducting drills in disputed waters; 2) firing shells.

"Pyongyang accused the South of firing first. The Southern military said it had conducted exercises but shelling was directed away from the North."
[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11818005]BBC News - North Korean artillery hits South Korean island‎[/url]

Not saying this provides an excuse to shell innocent civilians.

[B]Similarly, CRR, in your hypothetical, the problem is that it was occuring in disputed waters which are slightly more amorphous than the Mexican army marching north of the Rio Grande to conduct drills.[/B] If Mexico conducted naval drills in US waters, I suspect they would be kindly asked to leave by a couple of USAAF wings who might, while conducting drills of their own, accidently drop a few air to surface missiles near some Mexican ships. Regardless, I doubt anything short of an armed invasion of undisputed US territory would provoke the US into shelling civilian areas.

SK & NK govts. extremely dislike each other and would like to wipe the other off the face of the earth. BUT - neither of there supporters are willing to just let them duke it out. So, like two little kids who don't like each other, they do everything they can to provoke the other into starting a fight so they can claim self-defense.

Just reading the reports, I think this will blow over although China is royally pissed that we parked an aircraft carrier group off their border in support of SK. Pretty sure we would feel the same if they, in support of NK, gunned up right next to Japanese waters.[/quote]

I agree about my very weak hypothetical. I thought of using the Bering Sea, or some other waterway, but couldn't find one that made sense. Another problem with my hypothetical is that Mexico and the US have decent relations overall. What I was trying, and failing, to do was evoke a sense of outrage that NK might claim to feel. Look, to us it's a silly line on the map, but maybe the better one would have something from the Civil War era. This is one country that is split in two due to political ideology. Add to that the fact that one side is failing economically and is stagnant, and the other is pretty robust, and you get a very toxic environment.

All that said, this will blow over, unless either China or the US miscalculate a response. The key is good communications between our governments. Like JR said, the Chinese don't like our aircraft carrier, and that is pretty understandable since they have demonstrated themselves to be formidable offensive weaponry.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

Anyone presenting NK's side in this ordeal needs to remember that just a few months back NK torpedoed and sank one of SK's ships. Now they are shelling SK. Not sure just wtf needs to happen to be considered an act of war. Somebody is eventually going to have to get control of Pyongyang, be it China or SK. This whole extortionist/sabre rattling routine every 4-6 months can't continue, not with a legitimate nuclear program. It's like leaving a loaded gun in the hands of a schizophrenic, bad things are eventually going to happen.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;762480]Anyone presenting NK's side in this ordeal needs to remember that just a few months back NK torpedoed and sank one of SK's ships. Now they are shelling SK. Not sure just wtf needs to happen to be considered an act of war. Somebody is eventually going to have to get control of Pyongyang, be it China or SK. This whole extortionist/sabre rattling routine every 4-6 months can't continue, not with a legitimate nuclear program. It's like leaving a loaded gun in the hands of a schizophrenic, bad things are eventually going to happen.[/quote]
So how do you stop them?

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;762517]So how do you stop them?[/quote]

IMO, our State Dept. uses back channels to get China to agree that military intervention will not result in escalation... then we (or SK) shock and awe their asses and leave it at that.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

Why would China agree in any way to let SK or us attack their client state, that happens to provide a buffer to SK. I am certain they are happy to allow NK continue to act the fool, since there is no danger of NK turning on China. We have no reasonable pressure to encourage them to allow us that type of intervention.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

Also, N. Korea has a 1.1 million man active army according to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_troops"]Wikipedia[/URL]. That's a lot of people to shock and awe before they travel the 30 miles from the demilitarized zone to Seoul.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;762521]Also, N. Korea has a 1.1 million man active army according to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_troops"]Wikipedia[/URL]. That's a lot of people to shock and awe before they travel the 30 miles from the demilitarized zone to Seoul.[/quote]

When I said Shock and Awe, I was being facetious. I'm sure a missile strike on some suspected nuke sites would be sufficient. And China can't enjoy having a rogue state on their doorstep either. I would imagine the State dept. could let them know up front that we were going to respond. Then, after we (or more likely SK) do what we have to do, China gets to come out and offer the usual protests, but it doesn't go any further. NK does not want a war, they just want to continually threaten war in order to continue receiving what amounts to ransom twice or more a year.

Re: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South Korea
 

This article has, in my opinion, a very balanced look at the situation:
[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101126/ap_on_an/as_koreas_clash_china_analysis]Analysis: US carrier visit a dilemma for China - Yahoo! News[/url]