Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Sure, we've been saying this for years, and Shanahan decided not to rebuild last year. I still wonder whether that was the right choice. BUT - now our starting #1 WR is 32 with few options behind him, our best LB and key to the defense is Fletcher (36) and here's an abbreviated list of one of the oldest rosters on the planet (ages for 2011):

P.Daniels - will be 38
[B]McNabb - will be 35
Fletcher - will be 36
[/B]Casay Rabach - will be 34
Artis Hicks - will be 32
[B]Santana Moss - will be 32
[/B]Andre Carter - will be 32
Kemo - will be 32
D. Dockery - will be 31
Clinton Portis - will be 30
Roydell Williams - will be 30

Cooley - will be 29
J.Brown - will be 29

I won't mention Galloway is all but already retired.

The question is - can we fix this team in 2-3 years? If not, we should rebuild, dump older players and accept a couple of bad seasons as they get experience. The Capitals rebuilt and now has one of the best young rosters in the league for years to come. The Eagles and Tampa Bay also come to mind with young talent.

The second question is: since coaches are rewarded for success - is there no incentive for Shanahan to rebuild because he knows that he could get fired if he does not deliver success within 2 years?

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

The redskins ARE rebuilding. They cut a lot of older players last offseason, and I'm sure they'll cut more at the end of this season. I think everyone knows that they need to get younger, but I'm not sure it's as easy as it sounds. They will go with their best options regardless of age, and probably aim to add as much young talent as they can. We'll probably also see some different players getting snaps for the rest of this season.

The capitals didn't really have a profound "rebuilding." They just drafted well with their first and second round picks, and after four or five years of having high picks yielding quality players, they started to turn the franchise around.

2002: 1st round: Alexander Semin
2003: 1st round: Eric Fehr
2004: 1st round: Alexander Ovechkin, Jeff Schultz, and Mike Green
2006: 1st round: Nick Backstrom, Semyon Varlamov; 2nd round: Michael Neuvirth
2007: 1st round: Karl Alzner
2008: 1st round: John Carlson

It was only in the 2007-2008 season that things really started to come together for them. But your parallel with the caps shows what the redskins DO need: smart drafting in the early rounds over the next 3 to 4 seasons.

I question whether "dump older players and accept a couple of bad seasons as they get experience" is really a valid strategy for success. What is needed is young [I]talent[/I], not just young players. I'm all for giving younger players a shot, but you can't just throw a bunch of young guys with questionable ability together and expect that 2 years of experience will mold them into winners (especially not with the skins :P).

To answer your second question, it's less about coaches being rewarded for success and more about them being punished for a lack of production. While I think Shanahan's resume gives him a little more sticking power if next season goes downhill as well, I'm sure he understands that Snyder expects wins. He will utilize the players that give him the best chance to win, but I'm sure he's open to an influx of youth as long as it doesn't cripple the team's chances - this I am fine with. I guess overall I think that people cling on to the idea of "rebuilding" or "blowing up the team" as some sort of miraculous savior for bad teams, and that this team just needs strong leadership and good drafting over the next few years to reverse their current trend.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Who says we aren't rebuilding? 2011 could be a bad season whether we "accept" it or not. Hell, we've already gone through two bad 4-5 win years already.

The problem will be if next year is even worse; say, a 3-13 type season -- will Snyder accept getting worse than this before it gets better and still keep this front office intact?

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Beemnseven;768204]Who says we aren't rebuilding? 2011 could be a bad season whether we "accept" it or not. Hell, we've already gone through two bad 4-5 win years already.

The problem will be if next year is even worse; say, a 3-13 type season -- will Snyder accept getting worse than this before it gets better and still keep this front office intact?[/quote]

I think we are and 2011 will be a 7 or 8 win season. My thought is still 6 or 7 this season. If 2011 is a 2 or 3 win season then I'd expect a new HC in 2012 for the first 18 game season.

I think Carter, Rocky, Haynesworth, Dockery and Roydell Williams will be the only big names/older players released in the offseason. Daniels and Fletcher are still playing well enough to keep around for their leadership over the younger guys brought in.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

I guess someone needs to slap a big sign on the front of Redskins Park that says we are rebuilding to make everyone happy.

There was only so much rebuilding that could be done last year with limited picks and a limited FA pool. That said they still turned over 1/3 of the roster and the changes next year should only continue.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

I knew that this year we were seeing Rebuilding whether they wanted to admit it or not.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/40422-time-to-play-gm-3.html#post768237[/url]

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

You can't rebuild all within one season. It takes time. It's a process. There will be more roster changes by season's end. No need to worry about that. Shanahan had to go through at least one full season with this team to have a better understanding of what he had to work with here. You dump who you can and keep who gives you the best team on the field in the current situation.

No matter what, you always try your best to win now, even when it's apparent that you're not that great of a team. MS is finding out who wants to be here next season and who doesn't. I personally believe it's going to take at least three years to truly see a transformation. I just hope Snyder, and the fans, are patient enough to endure the basement until then.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

The concept of rebuild has been well adopted in the minds of many fans, but will it be adopted at the box office. If this team continues it's losing ways, attendance will suffer greatly, forcing management to somehow find a happy medium. Yesterdays announced attendance 66,000+ could become the norm.

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/05/AR2010120504268.html]Mike Wise - Mike Shanahan and Washington Redskins must face need to rebuild[/url]

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Mattyk;768244]I guess someone needs to slap a big sign on the front of Redskins Park that says we are rebuilding to make everyone happy.

There was only so much rebuilding that could be done last year with limited picks and a limited FA pool. That said they still turned over 1/3 of the roster and the changes next year should only continue.[/quote]

I totally agree with you. The team could only make so many moves in the off season. It's not like there was a ton of talented OL in FA waiting to be picked up and you only have so many picks in the draft.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Graham Gano essentially represents the conundrum Redskins fans face. Ask every 5 Redskins fans, and probably 3 want him gone. But if you want to rebuild, you probably have to have patience and put up with Gano missing some kicks, Sundberg botching a snap, Banks fumbling, Riley committing a penalty, Moore missing a tackle...that said, there's a fine (very fine) line between being patient and holding on for too long

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Longtimefan;768255]The concept of rebuild has been well adopted in the minds of many fans, but will it be adopted at the box office. If this team continues it's losing ways, attendance will suffer greatly, forcing management to somehow find a happy medium. [B]Yesterdays announced attendance 66,000+ could become the norm[/B].

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/05/AR2010120504268.html"]Mike Wise - Mike Shanahan and Washington Redskins must face need to rebuild[/URL][/quote]

I'm sure the weather was a factor in that

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

We have NOT tried to rebuild yet. A lot of people equate losing to rebuilding. Just because we suck doesn’t mean we’re rebuilding. We’re still giving up draft picks for 34 year old players. That is not rebuilding – that’s saying we want to win now. If you want to pick up some veteran FA’s. Fine. If you are trading for them, sacrificing young future players for the team, you’re still trying to win.
I’m ready to break the core of this team apart. See what we can get some value for, turn to the younger players. Start building a new attitude in DC. Not saying trade away everyone. But keep age in mind. Anyone over the age of 27/28 should be expendable, for the right price.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

I've kind of wondered about attendance before. If we keep having all these losing seasons, i guess at some point we really could be like Detroit, and have the stands at less than capacity.

How bad do things have to get around here for us to experience a "blackout" from TV, like other poor franchises have??

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=takethecake;768198]
The capitals didn't really have a profound "rebuilding." They just drafted well with their first and second round picks, and after four or five years of having high picks yielding quality players, they started to turn the franchise around.
[/quote]

IMO they had the definitive hockey rebuilding year, they sent Gonchar and a host of other veteran players off for anything they could get in draft picks, IMO it doesn't get a lot more "rebuilding" then what the Caps did when they recognized how badly the team needed it. I admit it's pretty subjective

IMO the Skins should have been in rebuilding mode every year for the last decade. When you piss away 19 total draft picks on 5 players who lasted any time and were productive players via trade/draft trade ups then you "reap what you sow"

I am refering to:
2nd and Bailey for Portis (instead of just Bailey)
3rd for Brunell
1st, 3rd, & 4th total picks for Campbell
3rd & 4th total picks cost of Cooley
3rd & 4th for TJ Duckett
3rd & 4th for Brandon Lloyd
2nd & 6th + another drafts 2nd cost for Rocky McIntosh
2nd & 6th for Taylor
3rd or 4th rounder for Brown pending McNabb
2nd & 3rd or 4th rounder for McNabb

That's a total of 19 picks sent for (arguably) 5 long term starting Redskins of any caliber and two of those (McNabb and Brown obviously) are assuming McNabb and Brown stay for years to come and that is VERY much in question, as Brown is a unrestricted free agent in 3 games and McNabb... well who knows...

The Skins team building philosophy (if you can credit it with enough forethought to call it a philosophy) has been to sacrifice the long term (young potentially talented draftees who might play for 6 or 10 years) for proven players who may have a few years left on the clock, but usually spend at least one of those years adjusting to new systems and then often the next year adjusting to a new HC or coordinator and their systems.

McNabb's first year here is a great example... So was Brunell's

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

The Redskins are rebuilding. As it's been pointed out, 1/3 of the roster was turned over, and with limited resources, Shanahan and Allen did the best they could to put a team on the field this year. Combine that with injuries and transitions on both sides of the football, and you have a team that looks like what the Skins are right now.

The foreseeable future (2011, 2012), you'll see more of the roster overturned, and Shanahan will have the opportunity to fill in the gaps with guys he thinks can run the system. After last week's thumping and yesterday's sloppy loss, these guys are playing for their careers the rest of the season. They'll have to prove to Shanny that they can fit the system and continue to improve.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=ethat001;768195]Sure, we've been saying this for years, and Shanahan decided not to rebuild last year. I still wonder whether that was the right choice. BUT - now our starting #1 WR is 32 with few options behind him, our best LB and key to the defense is Fletcher (36) and here's an abbreviated list of one of the oldest rosters on the planet (ages for 2011):

P.Daniels - will be 38
[B]McNabb - will be 35[/B]
[B]Fletcher - will be 36[/B]
Casay Rabach - will be 34
Artis Hicks - will be 32
[B]Santana Moss - will be 32[/B]
Andre Carter - will be 32
Kemo - will be 32
D. Dockery - will be 31
Clinton Portis - will be 30
Roydell Williams - will be 30

Cooley - will be 29
J.Brown - will be 29

I won't mention Galloway is all but already retired.

The question is - can we fix this team in 2-3 years? If not, we should rebuild, dump older players and accept a couple of bad seasons as they get experience. The Capitals rebuilt and now has one of the best young rosters in the league for years to come. The Eagles and Tampa Bay also come to mind with young talent.

The second question is: since coaches are rewarded for success - is there no incentive for Shanahan to rebuild because he knows that he could get fired if he does not deliver success within 2 years?[/quote]

I listened to the radio today and they mentioned that a writer supposedly heard or is writing about how Shanahan might be gone and Gruden in. lol. Shanahan signed a 5 yr deal. At the end of last yr everyone screamed to DS to get rid of VC, Higher a decent GM and HC, let them coach and build a team, and continuity. Everyone said we can't keep changing our system every 2 yrs. I'd like to think Shanahan will get his 5 yrs as long as he keeps showing improvement each year. Now if the team gets worse or still has a losing record then I can see DS letting Shanahan go, but not until after he has a few yrs to try and fix 10 yrs of distruction.

Now you mentioned needing to replace 5 people on the defensive side of the ball. Clearly Kemo is not the answer, or so I believe. Carter is not a 3-4 type of LB. Fletcher did pretty well and if they pick up another decent LB to replace Carter the LB might show better. If the team can build up the DL to younger, healthier, faster players who can take on more then one guy then the LB's might be able to get a better pass rush.

Depending on whats available in FA might depend on what they have to do in the draft. I'd like to see the team either go OL or DL in the first two picks, but since we have many needs it might also be wise to back out of our mid 1st round pick for more picks. Rabach has to go. I'd take either Center or RT. I feel if we can get the 3 main staples of the OL shored up the two Guard positions don't have to be top ranked talent. We also need a NT unless one of our Rookie guys steps up. and the QB spot? I get the feeling McNabb is here to stay and thats ok with me as long as they do something with the OL to give McNabb more time to throw and make holes for our RBs. Otherwise I see the need to get someone with legs to be able to run from when he has to.

I'd be happy going into next year with Torain, Williams, and Davis, but I'd still pick up a RB maybe a UFA who's decent. WR is the biggest need after OL on offense. Maybe Vince Jackson will be available, TJ Houshmendzadeh, and after them I'm not sure who is available. Those two alone along with Armstrong might be formidable. Thats not even talking about Austin yet and maybe another UFA WR.

How I'd fix this:

WR- FA.
OL- Draft.
DL- Draft.
LB- Draft/FA.
FS- Draft.
QB- Not sure. I think the teams plan is to keep McNabb. Grossman is not the answer. Can Beck be the guy? if not they need to start thinking of someone to fill in when McNabb goes down.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Mattyk;768261]I'm sure the weather was a factor in that[/quote]

That's true, it was definitely cold wet and a little windy, and believe me by the end of the game there was nowhere close to 66,000 left in the stands. I'm not so sure there was that many at the start of the game. Only the true die-hards were present yesterday.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Every crappy team is about 3 small moves away from at least being respectable. OFFENSIVE LINE!!! That's it. That's the only thing that matters. This is not hard to figure out, I don't understand why we can't EVER have a decent offensive line anymore. We are the only team that has a nickname for our O line glory days for Christ Sake. A massive, pissed off group of hairy armed Offensive linemen should be industry standard in DC. Like good Defense in Pittsburgh or Chicago or sissy's in Dallas. You want better defensive play, get an offensive line. You want better QB play, get an offensive line. You want aging WR's to be more effective, get an offensive line. You want to save money, get an offensive line, sign my slow ass for 50 grand a year at running back and watch me get 125 a game behind those corn fed mules. 3 studs and 5 above average guys. That's it. That's how you win a SB with Trent Dilfer at QB. That's how you take a 6th round pick named Tom Brady and turn him into TOM BRADY!!! A young confident QB is a dangerous thing, talented or not. O line gives that to you. I would use every single draft pick for 3 years on O line. I'd be lining up a 350 pound monster running a 6.6 40 yard dash at wide receiver I'd be so deep at O line. We might not win a SB, but we'll go 10-6 and make the playoffs every single year from now until the end of time. That's how I still have faith in our deflated franchise. Always 3 moves away if they can figure it out.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=jdlea;768250][url]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/40422-time-to-play-gm-3.html#post768237[/url][/quote]

These threads do seem very similar, don't they? I'd merge them but I'm refusing to participate in mod activities except for in nickel packages

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;768276]These threads do seem very similar, don't they? I'd merge them but I'm refusing to participate in mod activities except for in nickel packages[/quote]

Lol, I'd say they're pretty similar. I put up my preliminary plan for a rebuild before in the other thread and didn't want to copy and paste it here. I figured, "if you want my plans for a rebuild, see this post."

Although, the more I read through them, they seem like they seem like the same thread

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Was thinking about starting a thread related to this. I think we trade Moss and Cooley if there are any takers.

Two of my favorite Skins, but when it is all said and done I will love the Skins well after they are old and gray. Have to think about the team and I just want to blow it up and start over again. Picks help.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;768260]Graham Gano essentially represents the conundrum Redskins fans face. Ask every 5 Redskins fans, and probably 3 want him gone. But if you want to rebuild, you probably have to have patience and put up with Gano missing some kicks, Sundberg botching a snap, Banks fumbling, Riley committing a penalty, Moore missing a tackle...that said, there's a fine (very fine) line between being patient and holding on for too long[/quote]

I agree SS...In the case of Gano, there wasn't a lot of pressure on him to make either of the kicks he missed yesterday We play so many close games that in most instances a F/G often decides the outcome of the game. Should the team ever get to the point where it can score touchdowns and not be so dependent on F/G's some of the pressure may be relieved on the young kicker. Another case where a little patience should be exhibited.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Waiting for Tanner's wrath....

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=ethat001;768195]Sure, we've been saying this for years, and Shanahan decided not to rebuild last year. I still wonder whether that was the right choice. BUT - now our starting #1 WR is 32 with few options behind him, our best LB and key to the defense is Fletcher (36) and here's an abbreviated list of one of the oldest rosters on the planet (ages for 2011):

P.Daniels - will be 38
[B]McNabb - will be 35[/B]
[B]Fletcher - will be 36[/B]
Casay Rabach - will be 34
Artis Hicks - will be 32
[B]Santana Moss - will be 32[/B]
Andre Carter - will be 32
Kemo - will be 32
D. Dockery - will be 31
Clinton Portis - will be 30
Roydell Williams - will be 30

Cooley - will be 29
J.Brown - will be 29

I won't mention Galloway is all but already retired.

The question is - can we fix this team in 2-3 years? If not, we should rebuild, dump older players and accept a couple of bad seasons as they get experience. The Capitals rebuilt and now has one of the best young rosters in the league for years to come. The Eagles and Tampa Bay also come to mind with young talent.

The second question is: since coaches are rewarded for success - is there no incentive for Shanahan to rebuild because he knows that he could get fired if he does not deliver success within 2 years?[/quote]

Look at those players on your list and look how many might be gone this offseason.

P.Daniels - I think he might retire after this one, it sounds like 15 NFL seasons has started to take his toll on his body, and judging from him not showing up on the injury report with anything serious means it's just a lot of aches and pains that won't go away.

McNabb - staying obviously
Fletcher - probably staying
Casey Rabach - Definitely needs to go
Hicks - Stay or go, if he stays he needs to go to being a backup
Santana Moss - Stay, we already have enough holes to fill, we don't need to fill his #1 wideout spot right now
Carter - If we are going to fully commit to a 3-4 next season he needs to go. See if we can get something for him trade wise and if not (probably not) just cut him.
Kemo - He can stay, just needs to be a backup
Dockery - He can go, he's just wasting a roster spot
Portis - He can stay if he is healthy, but if he does stay next year will likely be his last as a Redskin.
Roydell Williams - I think we can do better than him but if he's gone it's no biggie.
Cooley - Might be trade bait, one of the few players of value the Skins have and I wouldn't mind Davis being our full time te if he's more consistent.
Jammal Brown - stay.

So when you look at that list there's probably 3-4 starters in there and the rest will either be cut or be backup players. I wouldn't mind rebuilding here but as has been mentioned it's something the fans wouldn't like (it means committing to most likely having a losing season that would be better for us in the long run) and I'm not sure Danny would like it either. I think he doesn't mind the idea of rebuilding but he's probably also concerned with how to keep profits up during a/multiple losing seasons. It's not like the way we're doing things now is working though, depending on your definition.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Daseal;768264][B]We have NOT tried to rebuild yet. A lot of people equate losing to rebuilding. Just because we suck doesn’t mean we’re rebuilding. We’re still giving up draft picks for 34 year old players. [/B]That is not rebuilding – that’s saying we want to win now. If you want to pick up some veteran FA’s. Fine. If you are trading for them, sacrificing young future players for the team, you’re still trying to win.
I’m ready to break the core of this team apart. See what we can get some value for, turn to the younger players. Start building a new attitude in DC. Not saying trade away everyone. But keep age in mind. Anyone over the age of 27/28 should be expendable, for the right price.[/quote]Amen Bro! It is time to stockpile and place value on draft picks, and rebuild primarily through the draft. Regardless of who has led our FO, one constant under Snyder's ownership is the trading of draft picks for veterans, as if we're one or two players away from contending. The two playoff appearances in Gibbs 2.0 were a mirage. Those teams had losing records before making final sprints to eek out a #6 seed. They created delusion in the FO that we were close. I would even argue that cutting an able young body like Devin Thomas in favor of older players like Galloway and Roydell Williams may satisfy Shanny's desire to win now, but is counter-productive to getting younger, faster, and stronger in the long term. As a fan, I will willingly take a couple more crappy 5-6 win seasons if it means that the roster is being turned over for a future loaded with young talent ready to contend in 3 years. Time to take a longer term approach if we ever hope to compete in our division, much less make the playoffs.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=hooskins;768283]Was thinking about starting a thread related to this. I think we trade Moss and Cooley if there are any takers.

Two of my favorite Skins, but when it is all said and done I will love the Skins well after they are old and gray. Have to think about the team and I just want to blow it up and start over again. Picks help.[/quote]

Why do we gotta trade Cooley? Why not just trade Davis? Cooley is a pro bowler and Davis has become obsolete recently. We hardly hear of him. He's young and did step in well for Cooley when Cooley was injured so why not just throw him out as trade bait?

You get rid of Cooley for picks or something then you have to replace Cooley. You trade Davis (hopefully for a pick) you still have talent at TE. Plus every team has a player with a cool name they draw out when a great play is made. Ours is COOOOOOOLLLEEEEEEEYYYYYY! Sorry just can't get rid of him. We won't get much for Moss, he's old, and usually has a hammy or groin pull. Same with Portis.

We have a better chance of simply trading out of our mid round 1st pick for a late round 1st and late round 2nd or 3rd vs. trading people away for picks. Trust me if they are valuable to others then they should be valuable to us. Especially since we have so few valuable pieces.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Trading draft picks for older players (over 30) has happened much much much less frequently than we fans seem to want to think it has. Aside from McNabb, how many times have we done that in recent years? I'm sure there have been a couple other times, but I really can't think of them

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SouperMeister;768290]Amen Bro! It is time to stockpile and place value on draft picks, and rebuild primarily through the draft. Regardless of who has led our FO, one constant under Snyder's ownership is the trading of draft picks for veterans, as if we're one or two players away from contending. The two playoff appearances in Gibbs 2.0 were a mirage. Those teams had losing records before making final sprints to eek out a #6 seed. They created delusion in the FO that we were close. I would even argue that cutting an able young body like Devin Thomas in favor of older players like Galloway and Roydell Williams may satisfy Shanny's desire to win now, but is counter-productive to getting younger, faster, and stronger in the long term. As a fan, I will willingly take a couple more crappy 5-6 win seasons if it means that the roster is being turned over for a future loaded with young talent ready to contend in 3 years. Time to take a longer term approach if we ever hope to compete in our division, much less make the playoffs.[/quote]

This pretty much sums up my thought process as well. Right now, this team is horrid. They need to make bold moves and, I believe, get rid of a lot of the "good" players they have as opposed to relying on them even more.

I think that as long as guys like Rogers, Hall, Moss, and Portis are on the roster, this team is going to sit back and think they are set at those positions. That shouldn't be the case. I would seriously have a roster next season that didn't include one of them! Having Santana as a #1 is really hurting the offense. Torain was released after camp because Portis was on the team. This can't continue to happen. The aging vets HAVE to go. That's the only way this team will improve. Have a fire sale and see what you can get. If the answer is "not much," so be it.

This team will never win the way it's currently constructed. They're so far from Super Bowl contention right now that they have no choice but to blow this thing up.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Longtimefan;768284]I agree SS...In the case of Gano, there wasn't a lot of pressure on him to make either of the kicks he missed yesterday We play so many close games that in most instances a F/G often decides the outcome of the game. Should the team ever get to the point where it can score touchdowns and not be so dependent on F/G's some of the pressure may be relieved on the young kicker. Another case where a little patience should be exhibited.[/quote]

I think people are forgetting that it most likely was not about pressure but instead about how soft the field was. I'm betting Gano could not plant his left foot like he usually likes to do in order to get a good swing of his right leg into hitting the ball. I'd almost bet a lot on the fact Gano had to adjust his kicking due to the fact he didn't want to slip and fall while trying to kick which the adjustment alone probably caused his troubles. No different then McNabb having to adjust his throws or game plan if it's a windy day.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SBXVII;768298]I think people are forgetting that it most likely was not about pressure but instead about how soft the field was. I'm betting Gano could not plant his left foot like he usually likes to do in order to get a good swing of his right leg into hitting the ball. I'd almost bet a lot on the fact Gano had to adjust his kicking due to the fact he didn't want to slip and fall while trying to kick which the adjustment alone probably caused his troubles. No different then McNabb having to adjust his throws or game plan if it's a windy day.[/quote]

I might buy that if their kicker didn't go 3/3 and even hit a 44 yarder

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

I think that we can slowly rebuild the team with younger talent EXCEPT for on the O-LINE! We need to get younger now. We cant run the ball consistently and it seems like every time we start to get a little rythm on offense we get a huge sack or we lose 4 yards on a run play. So frustrating. Keep Trent Williams, the rest of the starters can be let go. 1st and 2nd round picks the best 2 O-lineman available (i like sherrod from miss st. for right tackle). Then with the rest of the picks get the best players possible for other positions of need later in the draft. T. Williams, Erik Cook, Selvish Capers, 1st round pick, 2nd round pick as our starting 5. Give the young guys a chance to get better and grow into a solid unit, sign some undrafted free agents and keep one or two current guys for depth.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;768294]Trading draft picks for older players (over 30) has happened much much much less frequently than we fans seem to want to think it has. Aside from McNabb, how many times have we done that in recent years? I'm sure there have been a couple other times, but I really can't think of them[/quote]

Jason Taylor? For me it's not so much trading our draft picks for players over 30, it's trading our draft picks for players who fail to make a difference. We gave up a 2nd for Taylor, he gave us 1 season and bitched his way out of here at the end of it. I'm just tired of trading for/signing players who we don't have good judgement on (I'm looking at you Fat Al).

I feel like we would have a much higher chance of success with a player that at least one guy on our coaching staff was familiar with, it seems when we trade for players that nobody on our staff has ever worked with before it usually ends up being a failure.

And it's kind of obvious we're not rebuilding, and if we are rebuilding, we're doing a pretty bad job at it. You don't trade away multiple draft picks for a 34 year old quarterback if you're not planning on winning now.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;768294]Trading draft picks for older players (over 30) has happened much much much less frequently than we fans seem to want to think it has. Aside from McNabb, how many times have we done that in recent years? I'm sure there have been a couple other times, but I really can't think of them[/quote]

I don't know ... this guy outlined it pretty well here:

[quote=44 70 chip]

IMO the Skins should have been in rebuilding mode every year for the last decade. When you piss away 19 total draft picks on 5 players who lasted any time and were productive players via trade/draft trade ups then you "reap what you sow"

I am refering to:
2nd and Bailey for Portis (instead of just Bailey)
3rd for Brunell
1st, 3rd, & 4th total picks for Campbell
3rd & 4th total picks cost of Cooley
3rd & 4th for TJ Duckett
3rd & 4th for Brandon Lloyd
2nd & 6th + another drafts 2nd cost for Rocky McIntosh
2nd & 6th for Taylor
3rd or 4th rounder for Brown pending McNabb
2nd & 3rd or 4th rounder for McNabb

That's a total of 19 picks sent for (arguably) 5 long term starting Redskins of any caliber and two of those (McNabb and Brown obviously) are assuming McNabb and Brown stay for years to come and that is VERY much in question, as Brown is a unrestricted free agent in 3 games and McNabb... well who knows...

The Skins team building philosophy (if you can credit it with enough forethought to call it a philosophy) has been to sacrifice the long term (young potentially talented draftees who might play for 6 or 10 years) for proven players who may have a few years left on the clock, but usually spend at least one of those years adjusting to new systems and then often the next year adjusting to a new HC or coordinator and their systems.

McNabb's first year here is a great example... So was Brunell's[/quote]

All those transactions took place in just the last six seasons. I guess it depends on how you define "recent years."

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=mooby;768321]Jason Taylor? For me it's not so much trading our draft picks for players over 30, it's trading our draft picks for players who fail to make a difference. We gave up a 2nd for Taylor, he gave us 1 season and bitched his way out of here at the end of it. I'm just tired of trading for/signing players who we don't have good judgement on (I'm looking at you Fat Al).

I feel like we would have a much higher chance of success with a player that at least one guy on our coaching staff was familiar with, it seems when we trade for players that nobody on our staff has ever worked with before it usually ends up being a failure.

And it's kind of obvious we're not rebuilding, and if we are rebuilding, we're doing a pretty bad job at it. You don't trade away multiple draft picks for a 34 year old quarterback if you're not planning on winning now.[/quote]

Jason Taylor! Right, I knew it was forgetting someone. But anyhow, the way I see it we make trades to get guys like Jason Campbell, Rocky McIntosh, Brandon Lloyd, Adam Carriker...that's not trading for older players really.

Like I said in another thread, I really didn't and don't have a problem with the trade for McNabb but along with that move last year should have been a move to add a QB for the future. It's not Beck, and I really doubt they went into training camp with thoughts that Colt would be that guy.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Beemnseven;768322]I don't know ... this guy outlined it pretty well here:



All those transactions took place in just the last six seasons. I guess it depends on how you define "recent years."[/quote]

Well as I just mentioned most of those guys really aren't older players

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=mooby;768321]Jason Taylor? For me it's not so much trading our draft picks for players over 30, it's trading our draft picks for players who fail to make a difference. We gave up a 2nd for Taylor, he gave us 1 season and bitched his way out of here at the end of it. I'm just tired of trading for/signing players who we don't have good judgement on (I'm looking at you Fat Al).

I feel like we would have a much higher chance of success with a player that at least one guy on our coaching staff was familiar with, it seems when we trade for players that nobody on our staff has ever worked with before it usually ends up being a failure.

And it's kind of obvious we're not rebuilding, and if we are rebuilding, we're doing a pretty bad job at it. You don't trade away multiple draft picks for a 34 year old quarterback if you're not planning on winning now.[/quote]

Yes -- good point, regardles of age, (and SmootSmack, you're right -- most of thsoe guys weren't over 30) the evidence clearly shows that there were major whiffs on just about everybody the previous FO brought in here.

Bottom line is though, the last remnants of the old republic have been swept away [quoting Gov. Tarkin]. Thank heavens.

It would be a good question to ask though: Knowing what Philly knew about their QB situation, would McNabb have been released outright anyway?

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Beemnseven;768332]Yes -- good point, regardles of age, (and SmootSmack, you're right -- most of thsoe guys weren't over 30) the evidence clearly shows that there were major whiffs on just about everybody the previous FO brought in here.

Bottom line is though, the last remnants of the old republic have been swept away [quoting Gov. Tarkin]. Thank heavens.

It would be a good question to ask though: Knowing what Philly knew about their QB situation, would McNabb have been released outright anyway?[/quote]

Well the Eagles moved McNabb not really because of Vick but because they were ready to hitch their wagon to Kolb. So I'm not sure how much they really knew about their QB situation.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Beemnseven;768332]Yes -- good point, regardles of age, (and SmootSmack, you're right -- most of thsoe guys weren't over 30) the evidence clearly shows that there were major whiffs on just about everybody the previous FO brought in here.

Bottom line is though, the last remnants of the old republic have been swept away [quoting Gov. Tarkin]. Thank heavens.

[B]It would be a good question to ask though: Knowing what Philly knew about their QB situation, would McNabb have been released outright anyway[/B]?[/quote]

Seriously doubt that. At that time they knew they had a nice young QB in Kolb, but still an unproven one. And with Vick they had no clue he was going to blow up like this.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;768324]Jason Taylor! Right, I knew it was forgetting someone. But anyhow, the way I see it we make trades to get guys like Jason Campbell, Rocky McIntosh, Brandon Lloyd, Adam Carriker...that's not trading for older players really.

Like I said in another thread, I really didn't and don't have a problem with the trade for McNabb but along with that move last year should have been a move to add a QB for the future. It's not Beck, and I really doubt they went into training camp with thoughts that Colt would be that guy.[/quote]

Exactly. I'm fine with trading for guys like Campbell, McIntosh, Carriker, etc., guys that fit your current system and you see being the long term future. If I was the Redskins though, I wouldn't want to trade for an established vet unless the guy coaching him was familiar with him from some previous spot in their career. I feel like we trade for vets, then ask them to do something they aren't used to, they don't like it, and either get out of here through bitching or playing unproductively so they are forced out.

As has been mentioned by 44 70 chip, a lot of those trades he listed were for players our coaching staff had no familiarity with, and we all know how a lot of those moves panned out.

As for your post SS, I think the Skins use a high draft pick on a qb this year. This draft is particularly qb heavy and I do think since the qb we draft won't be a top 5, starter from day 1 kinda guy, we need to give him a season or two to sit under McNabb and watch before the reigns get handed to him.