What's the Bigger Problem?
 

I'm probably in the minority in that I don't think the playcalling overall is all that bad, but our execution-or lack thereof-is what's really killing us. And this would include dumb penalties.

The problem however is that our playcalling is so conservative that it doesn't leave much room for a mistake here or there. Still, I'd rather we not force a playbook that isn't suited for our offense and I think playing conservatively, as agonizing as it is, is overall the better option...for now.

Thoughts?

Well if we execute the plays, no matter what they will be successful. Its defintley a little bit of both. I mean there are just some places where it just seems obvious to do somthing differnent. However, if it works we wouldnt even have this discussion.

Philedalphia is a much better team than I think we are giving them credit for with the way we are talking about execution too. By saying that I mean that I dont think we are giving our guys enough credit for going against such a tough team. I think next week, we will see somthing like last week, we call very similar plays but just execute awsome against a bad team. Really, we the past two weeks we have looked like a "good football team". We destroyed a bad team, and played a close, close game against a very good team. We defintley need a little bit better on the part of the players and coaches.

I think playcalling. I think, for the most part, our team executed very well tonight. I simply think we need to find more of a mid-range passing game. 10-15 yards, not the homerun, but a big pass!

Also, I remember you guys absolutely ripping Spurrier last year for having a TE on Simeon Rice. Anyone notice how often Chris Cooley was on Javon Kearse when he made a play?

I am going with execution...
12 penalties for 137 yards is inexcusable. Hey Mike Sellars,"See ya"...dont let the door hit you on the way out...dumbass.

Penalties, a killer INT and a mediocre o-line effort all-around. I went with execution.

But that doesn't mean the playcalling was good...

It may very well be the type of play's we are calling, what I mean when I say that is this perhap's our pass routes are to easy to cover, and very predictable, what I can say is this the Gibb's of the past never threw the ball on 3rd down short of the first down, every pattern was at the firstdown marker, the one thing Gibb's doesn't do now which for the most part he didn't do back in the day either, is hit our back's out of the backfield while they are moving forward hitting them on the run, our back's when they catch the ball are alway's having to stop and restart giving the defense a chance to react, I know it's not Ramsey's fault because Gibb's did it with every QB we ever had, they are alway's running parellel to the line of scrimmage instead of verticle, it's like they run to a defender and stop, I kind of feel that way about our WR's right now as well.

its both, but i think the bigger problem is the play calling.

we are so conservative, once we get a 1st and 15yds, we are doomed.

the biggest problem is gibbs, he is misusing his players. coles should not be going over the middle so often. he cant physically take the pounding. cooley should not be our deep threat no matter how good his hands are. the OLinemen cant pull. when ever they try the counter tre/gap they get stuffed.dockery cant move, raymer is always in the way, samuels has no heart.

one thing that pissed me off was that when they lost 2 D tacklers, we never ran up the middle. trotter is not THAT good. they didnt run up the middle. :(

another problem with the play calls is that none of the plays allow the player to run after the catch, well there is that stupid WR screen pass. when ever a player catches the ball he is going towards the sidelines or coming back to the ball.

Execution

The way I look at it is if you take the penalties out- Portis gets 100+ (hard to run the ball when you put yourselves in 1, 2, 3rd and long)

We get two more field goals at a minumum.

that = ...let's seee......hmmmm....... a WIN

Execution.
3rd and 1? Make your block, beat your man and it's a first down.
I also believe penalties fall under the lack of execution. Something like 12 penalties for 145 yds!?

[QUOTE=Daseal]I think playcalling. I think, for the most part, our team executed very well tonight. I simply think we need to find more of a mid-range passing game. 10-15 yards, not the homerun, but a big pass!

Also, I remember you guys absolutely ripping Spurrier last year for having a TE on Simeon Rice. Anyone notice how often Chris Cooley was on Javon Kearse when he made a play?[/QUOTE]
OK that explains over 100 yds in penalties right? Gibbs called all the Illegal Motion, Holding, and I'm sure he told Sellars before he went out on the field "go pop someone after the whistle has blown right in front of a referee". PUHHHHHH-Lease! There were also at least three instances, including the pick, where Ramsey made a bad passing decision. Sorry but Gibbs [b]cannot[/b] control the decisions made on the field. If the skins were guilty of anything last night, it was maybe being a little too overhyped on emotion and playing too out of control. That to me was the single biggest reason why we lost that game.

No, but when we ran plays our receivers caught the balls, for the most part Ramsey made good throws. You're not going to execute a perfect game, the penelties were bad. Remember, 50 yards of those penelties came on 1 play. Also, Holding happens on every single play. I feel the little dink passes don't get it done.

You can't blame penalties on coaching, that's all in the execution category.

The Giants game was the perfect example of what happens when the players execute. It sure makes the playcalling look a lot better doesn't it? As a coach you can call a great game, but if the players don't execute the play to it's potential it's a waste.

The INT that ended the game wasn't a bad call, it was bad execution. Ramsey should have immediately checked down once he saw the coverage in the endzone. He should have only attempted that throw if Cooley was wide open, which he clearly wasn't. I have no problem with going for the throat in that situation, but Ramsey needs to pick his shots and he picked wrong.

Daseal, there's nothing wrong with having your TE/H-back block on the DE when the play is rolling to the opposite side. The problem was Ramsey held the ball too long and took a shot that he didn't need to take. He should have tossed the ball out of bounds once he rolled to the left and didn't see anyone. What I do have a problem with is when you leave your TE on the DE all game long straight up and that's your plan. It's two entirely different situations, apples and oranges.

Why do we have to keep going back to Spurrier anyway?? Haven't we beat this issue in to the ground already? Let it go man, Gibbs is our head coach and Spurrier is back to college ball.

I gotta pick execution because of the penalties. The playcalling seems bad because it has to be scaled back to match the skill level of the players that have to execute these plays but it is not as bad as it seems.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Why do we have to keep going back to Spurrier anyway?? Haven't we beat this issue in to the ground already? Let it go man, Gibbs is our head coach and Spurrier is back to college ball.[/QUOTE]

Amen! Preach on brother Matty!

Wouldn't they be in a 1st and 15 situation because of poor execution?

[QUOTE=jamf]its both, but i think the bigger problem is the play calling.

we are so conservative, once we get a 1st and 15yds, we are doomed.

[/QUOTE]

I'm going to have to go with playcalling, because you cannot call what happens when our defense is on the sidelines execution. Can I vote both?

One deep throw, which turned out to be one too many. How many runs for Portis in the 2nd half and WTF was that toss on 3rd and short? The only thing worse than the playcalling was the execution. And I think I have to apologize to Webster's dictionary for even referring to that showing as execution.

I'm with Matty, no more references to Spurrier. I fully expect Gibbs to get these guys to execute. Please someone tell me that Mike Sellers is on the cut list today.

[quote]Why do we have to keep going back to Spurrier anyway?? Haven't we beat this issue in to the ground already? Let it go man, Gibbs is our head coach and Spurrier is back to college ball.[/quote]

Matty, we're going the same route as Spurrier right now. Tons of close games, same type of record, etc. It looks very similar but the outlook on this board seems completely different. I don't understand it. No one wants to admit any wrongdoing on Gibbs part, and I think that's unfair to the players. I think a lot of time they did execute, but how many yards do you expect to get on a hitch pass?

Well 47 yards of the penalties came on one play by Springs, the interference play, McNabb to Owens. The new rules have the already high flying offenses of last year well, flying higher. Do you think Peyton Manning could have broken Marino's record prior to this one's? And to think Harrison if having an 'off year'!?

[QUOTE=Daseal]Matty, we're going the same route as Spurrier right now. Tons of close games, same type of record, etc. It looks very similar but the outlook on this board seems completely different. I don't understand it. No one wants to admit any wrongdoing on Gibbs part, and I think that's unfair to the players. I think a lot of time they did execute, but how many yards do you expect to get on a hitch pass?[/QUOTE]

Man, let it go already! Steve Spurrier is not the Redskins' coach anymore!

:smashfrea

[QUOTE=Daseal]Matty, we're going the same route as Spurrier right now. Tons of close games, same type of record, etc. It looks very similar but the outlook on this board seems completely different. I don't understand it. No one wants to admit any wrongdoing on Gibbs part, and I think that's unfair to the players. I think a lot of time they did execute, but how many yards do you expect to get on a hitch pass?[/QUOTE]

I guess we'll just have to see if Gibbs' team regresses the second year the way Spurrier's did

Either way, I think Gibbs gets a litle more leeway than Spurrier because Gibbs has proven that his method works in the NFL, Spurrier never proved that

But I think Matty and skinsguy said it best....let it go. By the way, have you joined a Gamecocks forum yet? :D

[QUOTE=Daseal]Matty, we're going the same route as Spurrier right now. Tons of close games, same type of record, etc. It looks very similar but the outlook on this board seems completely different. I don't understand it. No one wants to admit any wrongdoing on Gibbs part, and I think that's unfair to the players. I think a lot of time they did execute, but how many yards do you expect to get on a hitch pass?[/QUOTE]
I really don't know where you're coming from when you say nobody wants to criticize Gibbs, that's just not true at all. We've all agreed clock mgmt has been a problem and at times, the playcalling as well. I don't understand why you think Gibbs gets a free pass here, he clearly doesn't.

As for that other guy I'm not going to mention by name anymore, these are completely different circumstances. I see the team slowly improving this year and playing with a lot more determination and heart, while last year things spun wildly out of control as the season wore on.

Like SS said, let's see where the team stands in year 2. I highly doubt we'll see them regress unlike last year.

Play calling or execution?
 

I am a huge Redskin fan, and I'm a Gibbs fan. My thought is although the end of the season record may look similar to the last couple of years, this team is so much better than it has been. The players have more heart than we've seen in a while. Spurrier had no control over the players...he didn't have their respect, and it showed. I think Gibbs showed what was what when he sat Sean Taylor after the DUI. I know I respected him for that. I know I have said it before, but I'll say it again...Joe Gibbs is just a man. There will be a learning curve. Give the man a little time to straighten out the mess that he was handed. If you really thought he would turn this team around in one year, well what were you smoking? :Smoker:
I think next season we improve, and maybe make the playoffs...for sure if the NFC East is as sorry as it is this year. I'm not gonna jump ship.
:nono:

To me, it's the lack of progress I'm seeing that's hurting. Playcalling and clock management can be sporadic at best. 8 Weeks with Brunell at the helm when everyone in the world wanted him out after four pathetic weeks. The abandonment of running game way too early. I hope he can change things up next year, and if not then the year after. Ideally I would like to see an offensive coordinator if things aren't better by the end of year three. If things stay about the same next year, maybe then.

Gibbs is the best leader we've had in DC for sometime. These guys would jump off a bridge for him, and I respect him for that because that's absolutely amazing.

some ppl have been saying both and that's what i'll say. a gibbs team should not have penalties, after x amount of games with so many yds of penalties a lot of it goes back to the coach. i mean we've said it over and over that these were the things that would vanish under gibbs' reign. maybe there just isn't an instant fix to it i guess.

i think that the execution and the play-calling have to come together. if we're throwing hitches all the time then the execution may seem crappy even though they wanted to run the 2 yd. pass play. at the same time, i'd expect even when trying to throw it downfield, if you see TE (not even a jumper like gardner) double-covered, then u need to use some sense and maybe check down. execution.

these things though will go away guys trust me. no one does well right off the bat. andy reid, mcnabb, vermiel, etc, etc. these guys all took time to get into the scheme of things. it will be ok!

skins

You know the bucs won a superbowl from the short pass/strong D and play action so it does work if your players can execute.

An interesteing stat is that we are the 4th most penailised team in the NFL and we are well on course to have more than 1000 penalty yards for a forth time in recent seasons and that NO Gibbs team has had more than 1000 penalty yards.

Next year will tell I am not sure we will have changes as Gibbs gets more of his uys in andsome of the worst offenders are removed but I do not think we will see wholesale changes.

The penelties may have a little something to do with the system? Don't you think it's slightly to blame? Those penelties are a bit deceiving with 47 coming from one bullshit play. I feel a lot of the penelties were stupid. Sellars made special teams plays. We were in Eagles territory twice with 4th and short. Both of which we punted on, both of which the Eagles were back to that spot within 3 plays. We have a strong defense. If you're on their 35/40, go for it!

Gibbs called that play, and Gibbs called a lot of other plays where the play was simply doomed. A QB threw three bad balls. Wow. I'll take that any day. You guys act like we should do everything perfectly and the defense we go against shouldn't play well. Hate to tell you, but they have to not execute in order for it to work, that hinges on playcalling to catch them going the wrong way.

[QUOTE=Daseal]Hate to tell you, but they have to not execute in order for it to work, that hinges on playcalling to catch them going the wrong way.[/QUOTE]
How does a play work if you don't execute it?

I kinda see what you're saying, but doesn't every play ultimately come down to it being executed properly to be successful? What's the use of a great call if the QB throws an incompletion or fumbles the snap? Or what if there's a false start that pushes the team in to 3rd and long and they have to go with another play?

When Lombardi coached the Packers they had a very limited playbook, but the plays they ran they ran to perfection. Gibbs takes a page out of Lombardi in that sense. Gibbs' playbook isn't overly complicated, but it depends on execution. So often back in the 80's you'd hear people say they knew exactly what the Redskins were running, but they just couldn't stop it.

I meant the defense has to not-execute properly. Many of the plays are passive and not built for any sort of real gain! I would love to see us play like we did against the Giants. Absolutely great playcalling. We had their defensive coordinator guessing what we were doing. He didn't know if we were running and passing. I like to see that! QBs can't go 100% Peyton Manning is in the 60s for completion percentage, and that's pretty damn good. You plan on telling the Colts that they aren't converting because 30 some % of the throws become nothing? I don't think so. Mistakes happen in football, we had very few dropped balls last game, and we did have penelties. That's not really "execution" in my book. I see execution having to do with plays, Mike Sellers made idiot plays. I remember hearing earlier that he's a real Gibbs guy. Apparently he's on the first Gibbs pink ticket outta town come the end of the season!

Lombardi also coached when the game was different. Slower. I bet Lombardi's system would get absolutely deystroyed by the defenses you see today.

It seems like Gibbs' playcalling revolves around the QB not taking too many chances downfield (directly propotional to TOs and QB confidence), handing off to the RB to maximize TOP, and using shorter passes to put the ball in the playmakers' hands (Coles, Gardner, Cooley, Portis, etc) in the open field. Not a bad strategy (very conservative and safe), but we're being killed by penalties, bad calls, poor execution, and up until a few weeks ago, dropped passes. The approach with Ramsey may turn out to be an excellent decision. He may not post huge numbers this year, but this year may be the type of learning experience and confidence builder that he needs at this point in his career so that he may fluorish (and yes, allowed to take longer shots down the field) later on down the road in the current offense.

When we've gone down field I've seen plenty of confidence in Ramsey. We need to tell him, you know what, you'll make mistakes, but that's why we have that defense right there to back you up. Go out there, play ball, and learn. Guide him, don't shelter him. It's become painfully obvious that our current strategy isn't working very well against decent teams.

I think Dallas and MN will be good tests to see what Ramsey, and the system can do against balanced teams. I know MN doesn't have a great defense, but they can rush the passer and their offense can keep ours off the field which means we must capitilize.

[QUOTE=cpayne5]It seems like Gibbs' playcalling revolves around the QB not taking too many chances downfield (directly propotional to TOs and QB confidence), handing off to the RB to maximize TOP, and using shorter passes to put the ball in the playmakers' hands (Coles, Gardner, Cooley, Portis, etc) in the open field. Not a bad strategy (very conservative and safe), but we're being killed by penalties, bad calls, poor execution, and up until a few weeks ago, dropped passes. The approach with Ramsey may turn out to be an excellent decision. He may not post huge numbers this year, but this year may be the type of learning experience and confidence builder that he needs at this point in his career so that he may fluorish (and yes, allowed to take longer shots down the field) later on down the road in the current offense.[/QUOTE]

Gibbs' playcalling IS going to be a little more conservative when a new Quarterback is brought into the system. I believe his thinking was by bringing in a veteran QB, he could pick up the system faster than a QB that hasn't even started a full season yet. Also, with the vet, Gibbs probably figured that his system would develop faster and he would be able to stretch the field more than what we were able to do. Unfortunately, Brunell failed miserably and Patrick Ramsey was probably still rattled by losing his starting job at the beginning of the season. Some will say Ramsey should have started all long, some will say not, but hindsight is 20/20 and nobody will ever really truthfully know whether if starting Ramsey earlier would have brought us more wins...heck we could have had a worse record! In Gibbs first tenure, he wasn't exactly super conservative...because we had the Posse for the QBs to throw to..plus we had a monster of an offensive line which helped in run blocking and pass protection....and giving our running backs huge holes to run through.

I do believe that this system will be one that can really mold Ramsey into a great QB. If this system had already been in place for a few years, Ramsey would probably be further along. Why? Because more than not, a system that has already been put in place has the kinks ironed out and its easier to concentrate on building up a QB than having to build up the system from ground up...which is what Gibbs has had to do. GIBBS HAS MADE SOME MISTAKES during this rebuilding phase...as what MOST new coaches normally have. I DO WANT TO MAKE THAT CLEAR! I won't blame those mistakes on Gibbs' lack of knowledge or lack of preperation......I seriously doubt Gibbs lacks either...and I'm never going to give into the cop out that the game has passed him by; nor will I blame playcalling for everything that was wrong this year....

As much as I hate to say it because of all the money we have spent on them our O-line is at the root of most of our problem's on offense, they really limit what Gibb's can do, case and point, they couldn't move the philli scrub's off the line of scrimmage, they have an entire D-line of backup's and we can't keep them off of Ramsey or open up some nice holes for Portis, my opinion is Samuels, Dockery, and Raymer are absolutly none existant out there, Thomas is a player and Brown gives everything he has but he is 40 something yrs old, I say if Jansen is healthy by training camp I move him to the left side put Wilson on the right and find a legitamate center in the off season, I have to say this and I know this will make Dasael happy, perhap's SS problem's didn't stem so much from his coaching as much as it did from a unbelievably overated O-line? let's face it Gibb's is having the same kind of problem's that SS had, and he throw's just as many hitches as SS and I didn't think that was possible, something tell's me that the lack of ability on the O-line is limiting what any coach could do on offense, we have alway's felt that picking Lavar, and Samuels, back to back was a no brainer, apparently it was, we are putting out major dollar's to a lineman who can't block, and a LB who has less instinct's at the position than and undrafted player like Pierce, if anyone think's Lavar is going to make a big difference when he finally get's back on the field their only kidding themselves, William's could fill his position in a heartbeat.

PENALITIES, or Phanton Calls

PLAYCALLING PLAYCALLING PLAYCALLING.

We run the screen pass to perfection, its a shame its the only play we run though.

I didnt see the 49ers game, but my guess is that we looked fine on teh opening drive them went back to conservative crap play calling.

The game boiled down to not being able to punch in in at the goal line. We moved the ball fairly well all day.

SkinsNCanes, it did regress to conservative crap playcalling. Punching it in happened on 3 runs up the middle 3 times which resulted in field goals. The 4th I think we tried a pass and missed. Infuriating.

As others have said, it really is a combination, but I went with execution. If there was better execution (especially earlier in the season when Brunell was starting) and less penalties, we would be almost assured a playoff spot right now. That said, Gibbs has had his ups and downs with the play-calling, but I think that was to be expected at least to an extent after his long absence from the sidelines.

Play calling..........especially in the red zone.....even in the 49er game...we shouldn't have had to settle for field goals.........