Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

This live video of the protests in Egypt is stunning

[url=http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/]Al Jazeera English - Live Streams - Watch Now - Al Jazeera English[/url]

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

you know.. thats a hell of a thing when you have to call in the military to protect you from the police. Hard to get my head wrapped around that idea

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Good video clip here too.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xWiBCIxjIk]YouTube - Dramatic video as thousands clash with Egypt riot police in Cairo[/url]

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

This is history in the making...the Arab world is getting turned upside-down.

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

I have not had the chance to keep up with the story. So the military came in and started protecting the citizens protesting against the cops?

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This shows no sign of slowing down.
I bet Hosni is outa there before Wednesday.

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[quote=Tiggwin;780977]you know.. thats a hell of a thing when you have to call in the military to protect you from the police. Hard to get my head wrapped around that idea[/quote]
Not to worry.....the DC cops are to lazy for any of that..........

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

This is gonna keep happening over there. I guess the good news is that maybe...just maybe the people in that area of world are starting to want some serious change.

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

^^ Unless the serious change is the radical muslim faction that promises security, bread and education and, in return, only asks that you hate the USA your heart and soul.

The US needs to get behind any emergent democratic faction and support it - even if it costs us the Saudi's total support. The hard part will be telling who is an emergent democratic faction and who is an emergent fascist/authoritarian faction.

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

A friend of mine told me last night that his parents are over there stuck in this mess. They have been under lock down and seems to be safe but with this stuff you never know what can happen. He said they tried talking them out of taking the trip but they went anyways.

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=firstdown;781251]A friend of mine told me last night that his parents are over there stuck in this mess. They have been under lock down and seems to be safe but with this stuff you never know what can happen. He said they tried talking them out of taking the trip but they went anyways.[/quote]

Firstdown, my prayers are with your friend and his family. I hope they can get out of this mess safely.

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[quote=firstdown;781081]I have not had the chance to keep up with the story. So the military came in and started protecting the citizens protesting against the cops?[/quote]

Thats what was being reported in the news on Friday. Also I have seen footage where the citizens are waving to the Soldiers and the Soldiers are just sitting there waving back. Its as if they have no desire to continue to support Mubarak.

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So why is Obama supporting this up rising? There is a chance that this could become another Iran.

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

Not much discussion on this, but Jordan's King just fired his Cabinet:
[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110201/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_jordan_cabinet]Jordan's king fires Cabinet amid protests - Yahoo! News[/url]

Seems like the whole Islamic culture is in the midst of a populist backlash. And it seems like the two opposing sides are democratic forces and extremists. What options does the US have in supporting the rise of democracies? Can we do anything without a backlash from our major supporter, the Saudi's - who have 0 interest in democratic reform? If the extremists get control of Egypt and/or Jordan, how does that affect our goals and withdrawal timelines in Iraq?

This could be a turning point in Mideast culture that either moves us forward for decades to come, or if bungled, we could set back any progress we have made (fleeting as it is) for the same decades.

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[quote=firstdown;781491]So why is Obama supporting this up rising? There is a chance that this could become another Iran.[/quote]

Clearly the US is caught between a rock and a hard place with this issue. There are legitimate democratic forces that are involved in the peaceful, so far, demonstrations, and they are voicing legitimate concerns so we as a country and by our supposed ideology need to be supportive of those groups and ideas. On the other hand, the Egypt-Israeli cooperative peace, such as it is, is vital to our national interest as long as we support Israel's right to exist, and Mubarak has a long standing relationship with the US, hard to break those ties without scaring our other allies. (there was a reason why the founding fathers warned of foreign entanglements!)

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Well then maybe Bush was right when he said after the middle east sees what freedom looks like it will spread. That was pretty much his theme in his second term. HMMMMMM

[URL="http://edition.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/26/bush/"]CNN.com - Bush expounds on theme of freedom - Jan 26, 2005[/URL]

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

Should have known this would come down to a rock tossing event. Not sure when power has ever changed hands in the middle east without a good rock tossing event. I'd like to know where they get all of the rocks. Do they have chain Rocks-R-Us stores in the middle east? Sad to see.

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Is anyone watching this thing going down today and now tonight. I worked late tonight but I've had the news on sense 9:00 watching several ch.

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I'm surprised this thread is so dead with everything thats going on in the ME.

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I think anyone who cares enough to know what is going on is probably confused what to think. On one hand it is clear that Mubarak is a goner. And should be. On the other hand the uprising has no form to it. No real leader or organizing force it seems. So the prospect of Mubarak leaving office and Egypt slipping into complete and utter chaos due to the lack of a functioning government is sort of terrifying. Uprising is certainly fine (especially in the name of freedom) but it has to come with some type of unified direction and be led by someone/thing that can take ownership of the changes. This situation has nothing like that. Just a bunch of frustrated people throwing rocks and getting mad. I tend to believe Muburak is right when says he can't step down because the place would turn even worse without him at this point.

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

Yeah, distress in the middle east doesnt seem like anything new to me, sadly. Hopefully they dont burn down the pymirds or the sphinx.

The one thing im kind of interested in is the whole Muslim Brotherhood thing. People on the right are pointing out all the extreme muslim type terrorist stuff that this group is either partly responsible for, or members of this group have done, or the connections with this group and flat terriorst groups. Then people on the left are saying theres nothing to worry about this group and are almost making the MB sound like a good proposition for control of Egypt and the middle east. Just sounds weird to me.

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[quote=mlmpetert;782204]Yeah, distress in the middle east doesnt seem like anything new to me, sadly. Hopefully they dont burn down the pymirds or the sphinx.

The one thing im kind of interested in is the whole Muslim Brotherhood thing. People on the right are pointing out all the extreme muslim type terrorist stuff that this group is either partly responsible for, or members of this group have done, or the connections with this group and flat terriorst groups. Then people on the left are saying theres nothing to worry about this group and are almost making the MB sound like a good proposition for control of Egypt and the middle east. Just sounds weird to me.[/quote]

Both the left and the right have said that it would not be good if the Muslim Britherhood took control. The only difference I have heard from the two sides is that the left does not think they have enough power to take control and the right is saying before you wish their current leader gone you better know what your getting.

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The people of Egypt should be able to freely elect who they want and if they happen to choose what we consider radicals so be it. Preventing their exercise of free will can only lead to further problems with less simple solutions (where we are today). I am not afraid of the Muslim Britherhood...it's much easier to watch on the sideline and yap than to lead.

What's that old republican adage? The government [of United States] shouldn't be in the business of picking winners and losers?

Egyptian helmet design...
 

These guys on the streets of Egypt have to be given credit for improvisation.


[IMG]http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5195/article13531660d0770360g.jpg[/IMG]

[B]This guy has probably filled these bottles with gas and tossed them by now.[/B]

[B][IMG]http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/9070/article13531660d0734230.jpg[/IMG][/B]

[B]This is the design for the hungry protester.[/B]

[B][IMG]http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5717/article13531660d078e920.jpg[/IMG][/B]

[B]You have heard the saying "fight fire with fire".[/B]

[B][IMG]http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1267/article13531660d06fa860.jpg[/IMG][/B]

I think this one has been through a few too many protest.

[IMG]http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6290/article13531660d06b0250.jpg[/IMG]

Look no hands.

[IMG]http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1822/article13531660d06a5040.jpg[/IMG]

Probably his wifes best pan but he looks proud wearing it.

[IMG]http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7249/article13531660d071ecd0.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Egyptian helmet design...
 

[quote=firstdown;782222]
[b]this is the design for the hungry protester.[/b]
[IMG]http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5717/article13531660d078e920.jpg[/IMG]
[/quote]

boom breadshot!

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=mlmpetert;782204]Yeah, distress in the middle east doesnt seem like anything new to me, sadly. Hopefully they dont burn down the pymirds or the sphinx.

The one thing im kind of interested in is the whole Muslim Brotherhood thing. People on the right are pointing out all the extreme muslim type terrorist stuff that this group is either partly responsible for, or members of this group have done, or the connections with this group and flat terriorst groups. Then people on the left are saying theres nothing to worry about this group and are almost making the MB sound like a good proposition for control of Egypt and the middle east. Just sounds weird to me.[/quote]

Yeah, burning down well-guarded stone buildings far far away in the ****ing desert. Really practical. Or are you just ignorant of the logistics?

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[quote=firstdown;782105]I'm surprised this thread is so dead with everything thats going on in the ME.[/quote]

I would say that I have been watching this more closely than a lot of politics in recent years, including listening to govt reports through C-SPAN radio, and the live feeds that have been available. But nothing that I start typing here really adds anything to the discussion. It amazes me that these protests in Egypt have gone on without resolution and without sparking anarchy. It's kind of a suspension of disbelief moment, and until we see the other shoe drop (whether it is Mubarak's resignation, or an immense crackdown), I don't know how to put in words the feelings of these moments. You almost expect to see some sort of crowd rage moment that tops the skirmishes on Tues/Wed, or Mubarak flying out on a US C-130 transport into exile.

We can hope that the end results are to the betterment of Egyptian people, but I think no matter what happens, the Mideast will become a much more unstable place in the short term.

Anyone else wonder what kind of moment could send this thing catapulting out of control, to the point where Israel might feel threatened enough to do some rash/stupid reaction?

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

Sounds like we got caught a little off-guard. :(

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110204/ap_on_re_us/us_us_egypt_intelligence]US intelligence on Arab unrest draws criticism - Yahoo! News[/url]

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

Yea, its Obama's fault and beacuae of that he should have to wear this for one week. Then eat the bread.

.[IMG]http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5717/article13531660d078e920.jpg[/IMG]

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=mlmpetert;782204]Yeah, distress in the middle east doesnt seem like anything new to me, sadly. Hopefully they dont burn down the pymirds or the sphinx.

The one thing im kind of interested in is the whole Muslim Brotherhood thing. People on the right are pointing out all the extreme muslim type terrorist stuff that this group is either partly responsible for, or members of this group have done, or the connections with this group and flat terriorst groups. Then people on the left are saying theres nothing to worry about this group and are almost making the MB sound like a good proposition for control of Egypt and the middle east. Just sounds weird to me.[/quote]

Rule by the Muslim Brotherhood would not be a good thing. That said, although the MB follows a radical ideology, they are not a violent group now (unlike in the '80's). That is, the MB should not be confused with al Qaeda. If you think radically, you join the MB; if you want to kill folks, you join al Qaeda. So rule by the MB, while it would not be a good thing, is not the same as installing a terrorist regime.

With all of that said, it is extremely unlikely that the MB could seize power. While they are organized and get a lot of press, they are not a particularly large group numerically compared to the total population of Egypt. So if Egypt turned democratic, it is very unlikely that the MB would be a ruling party, although they may capture a seat or two in the legislature.

El Baradei represents a rational and moderate Egyptian political voice. When all is said and done, I hope that he assumes power within a genuine Egyptian democracy. This would be good for us. If you follow terrorists, you know that they almost always come from places with autocratic regimes. Places like Turkey, which are both Muslim and democratic, produce far fewer terrorists.

If I could, I would storm the palace and put Mubarak out on the streets TODAY. I would install a caretaking UN oversight committee to keep the government and economy viable. Then I would schedule democratic elections for as soon as possible and presume that El Baradei would win the elections.

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=Lotus;782454]Rule by the Muslim Brotherhood would not be a good thing. That said, although the MB follows a radical ideology, they are not a violent group now (unlike in the '80's). That is, the MB should not be confused with al Qaeda. If you think radically, you join the MB; if you want to kill folks, you join al Qaeda. So rule by the MB, while it would not be a good thing, is not the same as installing a terrorist regime.

With all of that said, it is extremely unlikely that the MB could seize power. While they are organized and get a lot of press, they are not a particularly large group numerically compared to the total population of Egypt. So if Egypt turned democratic, it is very unlikely that the MB would be a ruling party, although they may capture a seat or two in the legislature.

El Baradei represents a rational and moderate Egyptian political voice. When all is said and done, I hope that he assumes power within a genuine Egyptian democracy. This would be good for us. If you follow terrorists, you know that they almost always come from places with autocratic regimes. Places like Turkey, which are both Muslim and democratic, produce far fewer terrorists.

If I could, I would storm the palace and put Mubarak out on the streets TODAY.[B] I would install a caretaking UN oversight committee to keep the government and economy viable.[/B] Then I would schedule democratic elections for as soon as possible and presume that El Baradei would win the elections.[/quote]

Is that not one of the biggest things the ME hates about out siders today. That would just give fuel to the radicals that say the left just wants to take them over.

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Problem is we are in a messed up situation. Western powers have always pushed pro-western regimes in the ME. These regimes had to be authoritarian to ally with the West the way they did. I am a strong believer that all people have the right to live democratically and their society will push towards that direction against the status quo.

Unfortunately the status quo was pro-Western, so most of the stronger democratic movements in the ME have been anti-Western in nature.

We are screwed whatever way we move on this. It is about minimizing the level of that.

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[quote=firstdown;782486]Is that not one of the biggest things the ME hates about out siders today. That would just give fuel to the radicals that say the left just wants to take them over.[/quote]

I understand your argument. My idea (which was not the most important thing I said) includes the idea that such a presence would be clearly presented as [I]very short-term only[/I] and that such a presence would take it as a top priority to provide oversight for genuine elections. That is, such an idea would take pains to make it clear to Egyptians, both in word and action, that it has no intention to do anything but mind the store for a minute. Since it would be a UN committee, it could even be staffed by representatives from Middle Eastern countries, which should allay some fears.

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[quote=SirClintonPortis;782260]Yeah, burning down well-guarded stone buildings far far away in the ****ing desert. Really practical. Or are you just ignorant of the logistics?[/quote]

The pyramids and the Sphinx are located in Giza, essentially a suburb if cairo with a population of 5 million. Not exactly the middle of nowhere.

Apparently opposition parties meet with VP Omar Sulieman to discuss constitutional change. The Muslim Brotherhood was not included in the meetings.

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=BaltimoreSkins;782628]The pyramids and the Sphinx are located in Giza, essentially a suburb if cairo with a population of 5 million. Not exactly the middle of nowhere.

Apparently opposition parties meet with VP Omar Sulieman to discuss constitutional change. [b]The Muslim Brotherhood was not included in the meetings[/b].[/quote]

What a terrible mistake.

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

It looks like Sulieman did meet with the MB.

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/05/AR2011020501707.html?hpid=topnews]In Egypt, Muslim Brotherhood reverses course, agrees to talks on transition[/url]

Initially it sounds they didn't want to meet with him, but I think once they saw concessions are being made they jumped at the opportunity. Its a little weird hearing they want a democracy, but have it based on religious law. Didn't the puritans try that?

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=saden1;782684]What a terrible mistake.[/quote]

Why? Just curious, i dont really know what to think either way

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=mlmpetert;782731]Why? Just curious, i dont really know what to think either way[/quote]

They are considered to be one of the largest opposition organizations to the current government. So if there was a transition to occur they would represent the feelings of a large population.

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

Well my buddies parents made it home safe but it was a pain in the ass. They really did not know how big this was until they got out because the news had been pretty much cut off. Their travel agency refunded their money plus some and they also gave everyone cell phones to call home.

re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=BaltimoreSkins;782844]They are considered to be one of the largest opposition organizations to the current government. So if there was a transition to occur they would represent the feelings of a large population.[/quote]

That and the fact that excluding groups rarely works...see the exclusion of Ba'ath party in Iraq and Taliban in Afghanistan. You want them to have a voice even if you dont agree with them...unlike al qada they can at least play political ball.