Monk vs. Irvin
 

Just saw where Michael Irving up up for Hall of Fame. I am sure that he will make it. I was just thinking, I dont know all the stats but arent Monk's better? Doesn't Monk have more records (or did until Rice broke them all)? I will be so pissed this August if Irving gets in and not Monk.

Irvin will probably be held out a few years given his prowiss(sp) for cocaine and hookers...... lol

P.S. Irving is the name of the town where the Cowboys play.

The ballot this year is crowded so I don't know if Irvin will get in just yet. But Michael Irvin will get in before Art Monk.

You don't have to like that or agree with that, but I fear it is merely a fact.

monk:
catches yards ypc TD
940 12721 13.5 68

irvin:

750 11904 15.9 65

Unfortunately, I'm afraid you're probably right. Monk should get in long before Irvin. When Monk retired he had all the records, and he was a class guy, unlike what has been mentioned before about Irvin. Irvin gets more attention because of his loud style, (Monk was quite and just did his job). Marino and Young will almost definitely get in on the first ballot (and probably Irvin too). I hate to see that. Monk should really be in and Grimm too!!!

I think Monk will get in this year.....

Don't think Grimm will for awhile...maybe next year if the Steelers when the SB...

No one is campaigning on behalf of Monk, so he will sit on the sideline until there is a weak class for them to lump him with.

I think it's a shame he hasn't been voted in yet, especially last season with the ones who made it ahead of him, but I think until a very active campaign is made on his behalf, he will get overlooked for quite some time.

Art Should be in Canton
 

Wilbon from the Post and PTI fame has said he's pushed for Monk for several years to no success. I think its just a case of Art Monk having a quiet attitude and not being known as a flashy, "big time" WR. He just went out and did his job. You would think setting both the single season and all time catch records would get you somewhere, particularly in a non-West Coast power running offense that Gibbs ran. That and playing for Joe T, Doug Willams, Jay Schrader, and Mark Rypien in his career. Not that I'm bitter or anything....

d151b, I think that character should have a huge say in whether a person is included in the Hall of Fame or not. Michael Irvin's penchant for debauchery was a little extreme in most ways. Most people love the type of debauchery with a little booze and a few loose women. Irvin liked the type of hookers and a little "sniff sniff".

It is not justice that Monk will most likely be differed AGAIN, even though that may be the nature of the beast.

I suspect that "character" will only be part of the equation in the negative sense and not the positive sense. If someone is CONVICTED or PLEADS GUILTY to something that is pretty outrageous, then he might be kept out of the HoF, but all the good works and solid citizenry in the world won't get anyone in. I still wonder what the HoF would have done if the jury had found OJ guilty...

One problem is that there are too many players in the HoF - and some coaches too - who were not universally nice people if you looked carefully at their entire life. Let me use Lawrence Taylor as an example; he was the best OLB to play the game, but he's not exactly the person I'd like my children to grow up to be. And there are others...

Michael Irvin was no saint by any stretch of the imagination but nothing pinned on him was outrageous, so I doubt that he will kept out of Canton because of his off-field notoriety.

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]d151b, I think that character should have a huge say in whether a person is included in the Hall of Fame or not. Michael Irvin's penchant for debauchery was a little extreme in most ways. Most people love the type of debauchery with a little booze and a few loose women. Irvin liked the type of hookers and a little "sniff sniff".

It is not justice that Monk will most likely be differed AGAIN, even though that may be the nature of the beast.[/QUOTE]


It's pretty funny that the same people that would put Irving into the hall and leave out Monk, are the same people that keep crying about Moss's little celebration in the end zone on sunday, I guess Randy was just making sure he get's voted in on the first ballot! what a joke!

[QUOTE=offiss]It's pretty funny that the same people that would put Irving into the hall and leave out Monk, are the same people that keep crying about Moss's little celebration in the end zone on sunday, I guess Randy was just making sure he get's voted in on the first ballot! what a joke![/QUOTE]

nice point

offiss hit it right on the head.

TO does that stupid shit for the publicity, same with joe horn. he did that so he could make the a name for himself.

art monk rarely did interviews. too bad for him the reporters are the ones voting him in.

why do you think tampa bays defence was so "talented"? because berman likes them and they are on sports center every single day. it's fucking rediculous. how many times have you seen mike alstott on the plays of the week for a 3 yard run...

Monk had more catches and yards then Swann and Stallworth combined and they got in before him.And they cant say its a ring thing cause he has 3.But i think he will get in this year.

When people are elected into the HOF I think that stats and how they effected the game should be taken into consideration.

Now some may wonder how Art Monk changed the game of football. It can be clearly seen that he was a prototype WR of todays bigger and stronger recievers. I mean look at Art Monks Height, 6'3" and Weight, 210 lbs. Now look at the top recievers in the leage today, Terrel Owens - Height - 6'3', Weight - 226lbs. Randy Moss - Height 6'4" Weight - 210.

I guess what I am trying to say is that Art Monk was a reciever before his time. I know that Owens and Moss will probably exceed Monks career but at the time that Art Monk played not every Wide out was built like him. Now just about every reciever in the leauge is almost molded like him. IMO Art Monk not only was a Redskin great, he also helped the progression of the game and the Wide Reciver position

Monk amd Irvin are universes apart.

Art- A model of consistency. Never hyped, pouty, showy. Only time I ever saw emotion out of him was the 83 reg season game against the raiders where he and Lester Hayes were grabbing each others face mask after the whistle. Seems mild, but Art was pissed.
Led by example.

Irvin-Flashy, showy, mouthy arrogant. Everytime he dropped a pass he looked for the ref and pointed at the defender. Fiery leader, always in someones face on the sideline.

Both would catch that much needed 3rd and 8 pass.

I think if you combine the 2, you come up with Hines Ward

I have a feeling Irvin will get in before Monk and here's why. I love Monk as much as anyone, but keep an open mind here.

Take a look at their career stats, take a close look at the [b]'Seasons among the league's top 10'[/b]:

[url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/IrviMi00.htm"]Irvin[/url]

[url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MonkAr00.htm"]Monk[/url]

Here's my quick summary of some of the key stats:

1000 yard seasons: Monk (5), Irvin (7)
Season high yardage: Monk (1372), Irvin (1603)
Seasons over 1200 yards: Monk (2), Irvin (5)
Seasons with at least 6 TD catches: Monk (5), Irvin (6)

Monk's career numbers are much better, but he also played 4 more seasons than Irvin.

Monk will get in the Hall eventually in my opinion, but he isn't the kind of WR that blows the hall voters away and when you look at his stats there isn't much there to better his case.

If you take a straight average of all his stats to his 16 year career, his average season works out to be 59 catches, 795 yards and 4 TD's.

Irvin in comparison over his 12 years averages out to 63 catches, 992 yards and 5 TD's per season.

Monk was a very solid WR for a long period of time, Irvin was a very good WR for a shorter amount of time.

I know they played in different eras and there's always the intangibles to account for, but just looking at the numbers and the way they break down, I won't be the least bit surprised if Irvin gets in before Monk.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I have a feeling Irvin will get in before Monk and here's why. I love Monk as much as anyone, but keep an open mind here.

Take a look at their career stats, take a close look at the [b]'Seasons among the league's top 10'[/b]:

[url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/IrviMi00.htm"]Irvin[/url]

[url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MonkAr00.htm"]Monk[/url]

Here's my quick summary of some of the key stats:

1000 yard seasons: Monk (5), Irvin (7)
Season high yardage: Monk (1372), Irvin (1603)
Seasons over 1200 yards: Monk (2), Irvin (5)
Seasons with at least 6 TD catches: Monk (5), Irvin (6)

Monk's career numbers are much better, but he also played 4 more seasons than Irvin.

Monk will get in the Hall eventually in my opinion, but he isn't the kind of WR that blows the hall voters away and when you look at his stats there isn't much there to better his case.

If you take a straight average of all his stats to his 16 year career, his average season works out to be 59 catches, 795 yards and 4 TD's.

Irvin in comparison over his 12 years averages out to 63 catches, 992 yards and 5 TD's per season.

Monk was a very solid WR for a long period of time, Irvin was a very good WR for a shorter amount of time.

I know they played in different eras and there's always the intangibles to account for, but just looking at the numbers and the way they break down, I won't be the least bit surprised if Irvin gets in before Monk.[/QUOTE]

Excellent points, Matty. There's a very simple explanation I've heard among voters and members of the media as to Monk's absence from the Hall: He didn't "stand out". Peter King often says that when the Giants played the Skins, their first concerns were the running game, and Gary Clark. For that reason, and probably because he hates the Skins in general, King has said he will never vote for Art Monk.

Those averages for a season over his career are very telling. Monk was dependable and solid, but he wasn't exactly a game-breaker. That was Gary Clark. One other little tidbit, Monk never caught a touchdown pass in a Super Bowl. The fact that Monk didn't stand out in big games probably doesn't help his case either. My feeling is that he'll get in someday, but he's simply not a "shoe-in" for the HoF.

listening to John Thompson yesterday on 980, he brought up a good point (which i couldn't believe either...)

more and more, people are choosing value over talent. guys like TO, Moss, Irvin are in the headlines because of their antics and their value to the media to create those headlines...Irvin's nickname is the Playmaker.

on the flip side, back in Monk's day, players did what they had to do in order for the team to succeed. Monk has no value to the media because he didn't provide headlines for them to thrive off of.

in this day and age of 24/7 media, unless you're making the headlines, you tend to be forgotten...and unfortunately, those in the past are being compared to those now...

Unfortunately, everyone is right...

Sometimes it takes being a bit flambuoyant to make people remember you, even though people tend to remember the negative.

sportscurmudgeon is completely right when he says that people only focus on the negative. I mean when you think about people over the years, sports and not, most people tend to remember the bad ones versus the good ones.

It is true that people will be like, "Yeah, Irvin was loud and obnoxious." but no one, besides Redskins faithful, will ever remember Art Monk because he was a team guy and a class act.

Someone said that MOnk had more catches and yardage than Swann and Stallworth COMBINED. Can that be right?

I know that Monk caught about 950 passes but I would have guessed that both Swann and Stallworth had 600 - 700...

That is indeed right

Stallworth-537 receptions, 8.723 yards, 63 TDs
[U]Lynn-336 receptions, 5.462 yards, 51 TDs[/U]
Total-873 receptions, 14,185 yards, 114 TDs

Monk-940 receptions, 12,721 yards, 68 TDs

I just find it hard to believe that the Redskins were (with the possible exception of the Niners) the best team in football from 1982-1992 and yet only John Riggins and Joe Gibbs are in the Hall from that era. Granted, Darrell Green will make it and perhaps Gary Clark. But no one else?!

Those are some impressive stats. It's a total shame.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]
1000 yard seasons: Monk (5), Irvin (7)
Season high yardage: Monk (1372), Irvin (1603)
Seasons over 1200 yards: Monk (2), Irvin (5)
Seasons with at least 6 TD catches: Monk (5), Irvin (6)

Monk's career numbers are much better, but he also played 4 more seasons than Irvin.

If you take a straight average of all his stats to his 16 year career, his average season works out to be 59 catches, 795 yards and 4 TD's.

Irvin in comparison over his 12 years averages out to 63 catches, 992 yards and 5 TD's per season.

[/QUOTE] Monks Stats based on his 1st 12 years. This is a even comparison and pulls out the last 4 years.

66.75 catches per year
915 yards per season
5 TD Per Season

Considering Monk was the slot reciever and recieved most of his passes over the middle and on quick out patterns that is pretty impressive. He also played in a ton of 3 reciever sets.

If you actually think Irvin will get into the HOF then do us all a favor and go buy a retro Irvin jersey and be a Cowgirls fan. There is one thing we always do as Redskin fans in Boo the Cowboys, No excuses allowed.

marino,and young are shoe ins.monk deserves it before 8 ball irvin does.look how long it took lynn swann to get in.

Young as a shoe in 1st time on the ballot won't happen.

Went to the USFL LA Express because of money
Failed in Tampa and wound up as Montana back up for a number of years
So from the time he came out of college till he finally started due to Montana being forced out because of injuries it was 8 years ('84-'91)
Started thru the '98 season, so that would make it 7 years of starts and not all complete seasons. In fact 2 of the 7 years he had 11 and 12 starts each year. So to call him a HOF with 1 superbowl is pretty much a travesty.

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]One other little tidbit, Monk never caught a touchdown pass in a Super Bowl.[/QUOTE]

Monk did catch a touchdown pass against the Bills in Super Bowl 26, unfortunately the guy in the replay booth was too dumb to see it.

:madani:

Art Monk isn't getting because he's too quiet about it. He needs to make some noise. It's a shame. Michael Irvin is a terrible human being, and he'll make it on the first ballot. Why? He's a Dallas Cowboy. America's Team^TM!

I went to the Wizards game tonight and afterward, as I was walking back to the Metro, I saw Art Monk on the corner of 9th and G streets soliciting a tranny prostitute and paying her with crack while his boys were beating down a homeless man for some weed....there, now he's a shoo-in for the Hall :D

LOL

And not only is Michael Irvin a terrible human being, he's also a terrible human being who cannot talk and formulate sentences the right way.

I think MI is good on Dan Patrick and the pregame show.

I think the hard facts are that Monk will never get into the HoF because as time goes on and passing numbers go through the roof his numbers just wont look good enough.

[QUOTE=davy]Monk did catch a touchdown pass against the Bills in Super Bowl 26, unfortunately the guy in the replay booth was too dumb to see it.

:madani:[/QUOTE]


Good job with that Davy I was going to post that as well. :biggthump

guys, Monk's foot was clearly on the line on that TD catch, he did have a great drive leading up to that though

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]guys, Monk's foot was clearly on the line on that TD catch, he did have a great drive leading up to that though[/QUOTE]

If you have the game on tape Matty watch it again, his first foot came down clearly in bounds then the heel of his second foot came down first and was also clearly in bounds and therefore he had both feet in bounds and it was a touchdown at that moment, the fact that the front of his foot came down slightly out of the endzone a moment later is irrelevant. How many times have you seen guys given touchdowns when they get their toes down first before their heels come down out of bounds?. As Madden might say, surely one heel equals five toes.

:httr:

[QUOTE=irish]I think MI is good on Dan Patrick and the pregame show.

I think the hard facts are that Monk will never get into the HoF because as time goes on and passing numbers go through the roof his numbers just wont look good enough.[/QUOTE]
You're kidding, right? Irvin is absolutely horrible!!! And he is the sole reason I cannot watch the ESPN pregame show.
To get back to the original subject, I will be EXTREMELY dissappointed in Irvin gets in before Monk. Most linemen aren't flashy, yet they get in to the HOF, so why shouldn't someone like Monk? Anyway, I think Irvin will get in eventually, but he is most definitely NOT first year worthy, so if they want a WR for this year, Monk is the man.

I'm not a big fan of Irvin either on the pre-game show. He makes up for lack of intelligence by yelling at loud as he possibly can.