Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

I'm surprised that no one has started a thread on this recall election in Wisconsin where Gov. Scott Walker won by even a larger margin then the 2010 election.

[url=http://nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/05/12074595-walker-emerges-victorious-in-wisconsin-recall?lite]Walker emerges victorious in Wisconsin recall - NBC Politics[/url]

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

this is so bad for Obama...maybe it will wake up his lame campaign.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=Chico23231;920142]this is so bad for Obama...maybe it will wake up his lame campaign.[/quote]

What's funny is that Obama was still leading the polls in Wisconsin. I wouldn't necessarily say it's bad for him.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/06/jon-stewart-scott-walker-recall-video_n_1573566.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003]Jon Stewart Criticizes Scott Walker Recall Coverage (VIDEO)[/url]

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

Being more of a glass half full kind of guy...

This is more of a GOP/small government victory.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=Monksdown;920208]Being more of a glass half full kind of guy...

This is more of a GOP/small government victory.[/quote]

Well Walker ran on cutting spending and when he did people got mad. Now after the recall it seems the majority still want him to cut spending. He ask gov. employees to pay 12% of thier health care and pay 5% of their retirement fund. Seems fair. I pay 100% of both for family.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

Some angry people in Wisconsin.

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/barrett-slapped-face-conceding-recall-walker-135618842--abc-news-politics.html]Barrett Slapped In Face After Conceding Recall To Walker - Yahoo! News[/url]


Can't blame them. You start messing with people's livelihood and salaries and you'll get a lynch mob in no time. I suspect that many of those voting against unions do so because it doesn't affect them and have that myth beat in them that UNIONS ARE BAD AND THE DOWNFALL OF OUR ECONOMY!! Meanwhile, big businesses are laughing their asses off.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=NC_Skins;920211]Some angry people in Wisconsin.

[URL="http://news.yahoo.com/barrett-slapped-face-conceding-recall-walker-135618842--abc-news-politics.html"]Barrett Slapped In Face After Conceding Recall To Walker - Yahoo! News[/URL]


Can't blame them. You start messing with people's livelihood and salaries and you'll get a lynch mob in no time. I suspect that many of those voting against unions do so because it doesn't affect them and have that myth beat in them that UNIONS ARE BAD AND THE DOWNFALL OF OUR ECONOMY!! Meanwhile, big businesses are laughing their asses off.[/quote]

I didnt realize he was cutting taxes for the job creators. I just thought he was trying to control government spending, the platform he was elected on.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

Whoever slapped the mayor should be deported to Greece.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=NC_Skins;920211]Some angry people in Wisconsin.

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/barrett-slapped-face-conceding-recall-walker-135618842--abc-news-politics.html]Barrett Slapped In Face After Conceding Recall To Walker - Yahoo! News[/url]


Can't blame them. You start messing with people's livelihood and salaries and you'll get a lynch mob in no time. [B]I suspect that many of those voting against unions do so because it doesn't affect them and have that myth beat in them that UNIONS ARE BAD AND THE DOWNFALL OF OUR ECONOMY!! Meanwhile, big businesses are laughing their asses off[/B].[/quote]

Your a little off here. Private vs Public unions are vastly different. I support private unions all day. Public...not so much because:

In the private sector, consumers have the right to opt out.

If private sector unions negotiate deals that make their respective industries more expensive to operate, and thus their products more expensive, consumers have the right to buy less, or to go elsewhere to get what they want. Businesses can send fewer employees to Las Vegas conferences. Families can pinch their food budgets if labor costs at grocery stores make prices more expensive, or replace their cars less often if union benefits add too much to the price of an automobile. If too many people opt out, or buy too little, the company in question goes out of business. And unless the government offers a bailout, that’s the end of the story. When dealing with the private sector, unions generally have some incentive not to overreach to the point where their employer goes out of business.

The story’s not the same in the public sector. When government employees negotiate added salary and benefits, those who are not directly employed by the government—which is to say, the vast majority of taxpayers—can’t really opt out. So one of three things has to happen: 1) Taxes are raised to pay for the added compensation costs. 2) Services are cut in order to pay for the additional compensation. 3) The additional compensation isn’t ever paid—a situation that usually comes with, at minimum, some sort of minor political drama, if not a serious showdown. This is why the power of public sector unions is such a big deal: When they negotiate better benefits, the majority of taxpayers usually end up forced to bear the cost, somehow, whether they want to or not. With private sector unions, that’s not necessarily the case.

[url=http://reason.com/blog/2011/02/23/the-difference-between-private]The Difference Between Private and Public Sector Unions - Hit & Run : Reason.com[/url]

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=NC_Skins;920211]Some angry people in Wisconsin.

[URL="http://news.yahoo.com/barrett-slapped-face-conceding-recall-walker-135618842--abc-news-politics.html"]Barrett Slapped In Face After Conceding Recall To Walker - Yahoo! News[/URL]


Can't blame them. You start messing with people's livelihood and salaries and you'll get a lynch mob in no time. I suspect that many of those voting against unions do so because it doesn't affect them and have that myth beat in them that UNIONS ARE BAD AND THE DOWNFALL OF OUR ECONOMY!! Meanwhile, big businesses are laughing their asses off.[/quote]

So you think its too much for the tax payers to ask the public sector union members to pay 12% of their health insurance and 5% of their retirement plan? I have to pay 100% of those for myself.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

let me see. he wants those govt workers to take a pay cut, seems fair. wants those workers to help pay for their ins., seems fair., he wants to cut their pensions, seems fair. what is he giving up? makes me laugh any time a local GOP ruling body needs to cut, they run after the unions, first chance they get

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=Chico23231;920234]
The story’s not the same in the public sector. When government employees negotiate added salary and benefits, those who are not directly employed by the government—which is to say, the vast majority of taxpayers—can’t really opt out. So one of three things has to happen: 1) Taxes are raised to pay for the added compensation costs. 2) Services are cut in order to pay for the additional compensation. 3) The additional compensation isn’t ever paid—a situation that usually comes with, at minimum, some sort of minor political drama, if not a serious showdown. This is why the power of public sector unions is such a big deal: When they negotiate better benefits, the majority of taxpayers usually end up forced to bear the cost, somehow, whether they want to or not. With private sector unions, that’s not necessarily the case.

[URL="http://reason.com/blog/2011/02/23/the-difference-between-private"]The Difference Between Private and Public Sector Unions - Hit & Run : Reason.com[/URL][/quote]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]So well said. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The only thing i have against Walker is that he has promised not to turn Wisconsion into a right to work state. Forced unionism just feels inheritantly wrong. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

Maybe the Wisconsin vote had less to do with a referendum on cutting government spending and more to do with voters feeling that the recall process should only be used for elected officials who turn out to be guilty of crimes.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=dmek25;920250]let me see. he wants those govt workers to take a pay cut, seems fair. wants those workers to help pay for their ins., seems fair., he wants to cut their pensions, seems fair. what is he giving up? makes me laugh any time a local GOP ruling body needs to cut, they run after the unions, first chance they get[/quote]

Did not ask them to take a pay cut or to cut their pension. He ask them to hlep pay a small % of their health ins. and pay a small % of their pension. So lets see an example. If their health ins is $800 per month and their pension deposit is 500 per month (both figures probably high) they would have to pay $121 for those benifits. Wow. I pay $820 for health insurance and what ever I have left each month I put away for retirement.

Did you also know under the union contract the school districts could only purchase health ins through WEA (Wis. Education Association) which profited from these contracts and cost the school district millions more each year. Those millions that could be spent on actually the students but the unions would not allow them to shop the rates.


[url=http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/07/wisconsin-schools-buck-union-cut-health-costs/115972]Wisconsin schools buck union to cut health costs | Washington Examiner[/url]

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

The exit poll showing that Walker got 38 percent of the vote from people living in union households was conducted by Edison Research for ABC News, CBS News, NBC News, CNN, Fox News and the Associated Press.

[url=http://cnsnews.com/news/article/38-voters-union-households-voted-walker]38% of Voters from Union Households Voted for Walker | CNSNews.com[/url]

I'm guessing that number has the Dems more worried then the fact that Walker won the recall.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

Lotus pretty much nailed. There have only be three gubernatorial recalls in history. One in 1921, Gray Davis in 2003, and Scott Walker.

Anyway, majority of union members still overwhelmingly support the president. That's not going to change between now and election day.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=Lotus;920260]Maybe the Wisconsin vote had less to do with a referendum on cutting government spending and more to do with voters feeling that the recall process should only be used for elected officials who turn out to be guilty of crimes.[/quote]

AGREED

Many union supporters were simply opposed to the recall process. Bad mistake by the Dems. Now the GOP can treat it like a referendum on unions when really it was a critique of the recall process.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=12thMan;920850]Lotus pretty much nailed. There have only be three gubernatorial recalls in history. One in 1921, Gray Davis in 2003, and Scott Walker.

Anyway, majority of union members still overwhelmingly support the president. That's not going to change between now and election day.[/quote]

So your saying that 38% of them would vote for a man who has made them pay more money into the system just because they did not support the recall.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

Nearly 60% of union workers still support Obama.

[url=http://www.gallup.com/poll/155138/Majority-Union-Members-Favor-Obama-Third-Back-Romney.aspx]Majority of Union Members Favor Obama; a Third Back Romney[/url]

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=12thMan;920864]Nearly 60% of union workers still support Obama.

[URL="http://www.gallup.com/poll/155138/Majority-Union-Members-Favor-Obama-Third-Back-Romney.aspx"]Majority of Union Members Favor Obama; a Third Back Romney[/URL][/quote]

Well I understand that its the fact that the unions pushed so hard for his recall and still 38% of Union households voted for Walker.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

So what they voted for Walker? All union members aren't Democrats you know.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

If Walker had lost, what would the story have been about?

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=12thMan;920870]So what they voted for Walker? All union members aren't Democrats you know.[/quote]


Correct I am one, republicain, but there isn't a one worthy I would vote for I honestly feel Obama is better then what the republicans can offer.Unions aren't the down fall of society and they are needed just becuase of idiots like Romney and the fat man in NJ Christy.People like Teachers,Police,Firemen and Nurses ,EMS techs...etc need Unions to be protected from politicians who throw them under the bus as a stop gap to cut cost. Like it or not Unions have help all even though some won't admit it.



[url=http://bigcorporationusa.blogspot.com/2011/06/thank-union-35-ways-unions-have.html]Big Corporation: Thank a Union: 36 Ways Unions Have Improved Your Life[/url]

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

i knew i liked something about you giantone

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=Giantone;921718]Correct I am one, republicain, but there isn't a one worthy I would vote for I honestly feel Obama is better then what the republicans can offer.Unions aren't the down fall of society and they are needed just becuase of idiots like Romney and the fat man in NJ Christy.People like Teachers,Police,Firemen and Nurses ,EMS techs...etc need Unions to be protected from politicians who throw them under the bus as a stop gap to cut cost. Like it or not Unions have help all even though some won't admit it.



[URL="http://bigcorporationusa.blogspot.com/2011/06/thank-union-35-ways-unions-have.html"]Big Corporation: Thank a Union: 36 Ways Unions Have Improved Your Life[/URL][/quote]

Unions still using that old ass list.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

first, why the hard one towards unions? you dont think they have any value?

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=dmek25;921815]first, why the hard one towards unions? you dont think they have any value?[/quote]

I never said I was against unions. People made this a union against Walker issue so by siding with Walker people assume I'm against unions. I do think they have lost their value over the years and that old ass list is proof.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=firstdown;921818]I never said I was against unions. People made this a union against Walker issue so by siding with Walker people assume I'm against unions. I do think they have lost their value over the years and that old ass list is proof.[/quote]

LOL really?"OLD ASS LIST.....well go back and read that list and tell me everything that corp America is trying to stop on it, for the better of the country?

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=firstdown;921779]Unions still using that old ass list.[/quote]



from the Wall Street Journal.....



[url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB128363783494134529.html]Unions Can Be a Good Thing – or Not - WSJ.com[/url]

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=Giantone;921872]LOL really?"OLD ASS LIST.....well go back and read that list and tell me everything that corp America is trying to stop on it, for the better of the country?[/quote]
[LIST=1][*]Weekends[*]All Breaks at Work, including your Lunch Breaks[*]Paid Vacation[*]FMLA[*]Sick Leave[*]Social Security[*]Minimum Wage[*]Civil Rights Act/Title VII (Prohibits Employer Discrimination)[*]8-Hour Work Day[*]Overtime Pay[*]Child Labor Laws[*]Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)[*]40 Hour Work Week[*]Worker's Compensation (Worker's Comp)[*]Unemployment Insurance[*]Pensions[*]Workplace Safety Standards and Regulations[*]Employer Health Care Insurance[*]Collective Bargaining Rights for Employees[*]Wrongful Termination Laws[*]Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967[*]Whistleblower Protection Laws[*]Employee Polygraph Protect Act (Prohibits Employer from using a lie detector test on an employee)[*]Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)[*]Compensation increases and Evaluations (Raises)[*]Sexual Harassment Laws[*]Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)[*]Holiday Pay[*]Employer Dental, Life, and Vision Insurance[*]Privacy Rights[*]Pregnancy and Parental Leave[*]Military Leave[*]The Right to Strike[*]Public Education for Children[*]Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 (Requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work)[*]Laws Ending Sweatshops in the United States[/LIST]Other then number 31 which others things on the list are not 30 to 40 yrs old. I'm not saying if they are good are bad I'm just saying that list is old stuff they did 30 plus years ago. I think the list is also a stretch of things they accomplished like social security.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=firstdown;921936][LIST=1][*]Weekends[*]All Breaks at Work, including your Lunch Breaks[*]Paid Vacation[*]FMLA[*]Sick Leave[*]Social Security[*]Minimum Wage[*]Civil Rights Act/Title VII (Prohibits Employer Discrimination)[*]8-Hour Work Day[*]Overtime Pay[*]Child Labor Laws[*]Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)[*]40 Hour Work Week[*]Worker's Compensation (Worker's Comp)[*]Unemployment Insurance[*]Pensions[*]Workplace Safety Standards and Regulations[*]Employer Health Care Insurance[*]Collective Bargaining Rights for Employees[*]Wrongful Termination Laws[*]Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967[*]Whistleblower Protection Laws[*]Employee Polygraph Protect Act (Prohibits Employer from using a lie detector test on an employee)[*]Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)[*]Compensation increases and Evaluations (Raises)[*]Sexual Harassment Laws[*]Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)[*]Holiday Pay[*]Employer Dental, Life, and Vision Insurance[*]Privacy Rights[*]Pregnancy and Parental Leave[*]Military Leave[*]The Right to Strike[*]Public Education for Children[*]Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 (Requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work)[*]Laws Ending Sweatshops in the United States[/LIST]Other then number 31 which others things on the list are not 30 to 40 yrs old. I'm not saying if they are good are bad I'm just saying that list is old stuff they did 30 plus years ago. I think the list is also a stretch of things they accomplished like social security.[/quote]
Ok, go back to the list and look though it and tell me what is "out dated" being 30 or 40 years old?

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

1)I guess what I am asking is what things on that list do you think companys want either gone or to change ?
2)At your job(this is for all)what do you think job would be like with out any of these 36 items?






.....be honest.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

Ok I'll play your game.

Weekends: I think it limited us to only two days.
All Breaks at Work, including your Lunch Breaks: I don't take breaks lunch on the run
Paid Vacation: Don't get paid vacations
FMLA : Whats this?
Sick Leave : Don't get sick leave.
Social Security: I have to pay double into this rip off system that is broke
Minimum Wage : So the Union claims this.
Civil Rights Act/Title VII (Prohibits Employer Discrimination) I was discriminated against
8-Hour Work Day: I wish. Its 10:40 I just finished up some stuff for work.
Overtime Pay: I'm commission only.
Child Labor Laws: Common sense that congress would have passed.
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA) : N/A
40 Hour Work Week ; Once again I wish.
Worker's Compensation (Worker's Comp) : I don't have Workers Comp. Would only cost
Unemployment Insurance : I wish
Pensions : My pension is what I save with my money
Workplace Safety Standards and Regulations: Maybe a paper cut.
Employer Health Care Insurance : I pay for my own Health Care
Collective Bargaining Rights for Employees: Have none
Wrongful Termination Laws: VA is a right to work state
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967: Here is an old ass law and N/A
Whistleblower Protection Laws: N/A
Employee Polygraph Protect Act (Prohibits Employer from using a lie detector test on an employee) Emp. can steel from me and get away with it. Thanks
Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS) N/A
Compensation increases and Evaluations (Raises) Just had my commisions cut.
Sexual Harassment Laws: That was the good old days.
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA):Congess would have passed anyways
Holiday Pay : I wish
Employer Dental, Life, and Vision Insurance: I wish
Privacy Rights If they say so.
Pregnancy and Parental Leave: Would really cost me a ton of money if it applied to me.
Military Leave: See lastanswer.
The Right to Strike: Isn't that freedom of speech?
Public Education for Children: Really they claim this.
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 (Requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work) : Does not apply to me.
Laws Ending Sweatshops in the United States: N/A

So I guess unions have only cost me money.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=firstdown;922264]Ok I'll play your game.

Weekends: I think it limited us to only two days.
All Breaks at Work, including your Lunch Breaks: I don't take breaks lunch on the run
Paid Vacation: Don't get paid vacations
FMLA : Whats this?
Sick Leave : Don't get sick leave.
Social Security: I have to pay double into this rip off system that is broke
Minimum Wage : So the Union claims this.
Civil Rights Act/Title VII (Prohibits Employer Discrimination) I was discriminated against
8-Hour Work Day: I wish. Its 10:40 I just finished up some stuff for work.
Overtime Pay: I'm commission only.
Child Labor Laws: Common sense that congress would have passed.
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA) : N/A
40 Hour Work Week ; Once again I wish.
Worker's Compensation (Worker's Comp) : I don't have Workers Comp. Would only cost
Unemployment Insurance : I wish
Pensions : My pension is what I save with my money
Workplace Safety Standards and Regulations: Maybe a paper cut.
Employer Health Care Insurance : I pay for my own Health Care
Collective Bargaining Rights for Employees: Have none
Wrongful Termination Laws: VA is a right to work state
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967: Here is an old ass law and N/A
Whistleblower Protection Laws: N/A
Employee Polygraph Protect Act (Prohibits Employer from using a lie detector test on an employee) Emp. can steel from me and get away with it. Thanks
Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS) N/A
Compensation increases and Evaluations (Raises) Just had my commisions cut.
Sexual Harassment Laws: That was the good old days.
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA):Congess would have passed anyways
Holiday Pay : I wish
Employer Dental, Life, and Vision Insurance: I wish
Privacy Rights If they say so.
Pregnancy and Parental Leave: Would really cost me a ton of money if it applied to me.
Military Leave: See lastanswer.
The Right to Strike: Isn't that freedom of speech?
Public Education for Children: Really they claim this.
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 (Requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work) : Does not apply to me.
Laws Ending Sweatshops in the United States: N/A

So I guess unions have only cost me money.[/quote]


From your answers,Unions are worth there weight in Gold.You proved my point.Thanks.


....P.S. you need a new job.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=Giantone;922277]From your answers,Unions are worth there weight in Gold.You proved my point.Thanks.


....P.S. you need a new job.[/quote]

P.S. I work for myself and will be glade to compare pay checks.

BTW. I don't have a "JOB" I have a career.

Also I never said unions have not been needed or done good things in the past. They are living off their past and that list of things they say they have accomplished is very old and dated. How long can they keep saying how important they are TODAY using accomplishment form 30 to 40 yrs ago?

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=firstdown;922297]P.S. I work for myself and will be glade to compare pay checks.

BTW. I don't have a "JOB" I have a career.

Also I never said unions have not been needed or done good things in the past. They are living off their past and that list of things they say they have accomplished is very old and dated. How long can they keep saying how important they are TODAY using accomplishment form 30 to 40 yrs ago?[/quote]




I can say it becuase those things are still around and very relivent today .From your statments it was pretty clear that you work for yourself .You do know you can have a job and a career ,my Dad worked for himself....and his job was outsourced to a computer,I saw how hard it was for him and realized there is strength in numbers.
I hope you succeed,Unions aren't for all but they have helped all wether people know it or not.They should'nt be the blame all when some fat ass polititcan wants to save money.People want a Police man to take a bullit for them but they don't want to pay him,they want a fireman to walk into a burning building and save their life or a life of a loved one....but not pay them for it,they want a Nurse or EMS tech to save their life ....but not pay them,they want teachers to continue to go to school have Masters degrees or doctorates.....and pay for that continuing education themselves...but not pay them for it,those are the reasons we still need Unions so the working man or women has a voice.

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

first says he doesnt take breaks at work. what is posting here during the day called?

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=dmek25;922407]first says he doesnt take breaks at work. what is posting here during the day called?[/quote]


stress relief.......

Re: Democrats/Unions Lose Big In Wisconsin
 

[quote=Giantone;922401]I can say it becuase those things are still around and very relivent today .From your statments it was pretty clear that you work for yourself .You do know you can have a job and a career ,my Dad worked for himself....and his job was outsourced to a computer,I saw how hard it was for him and realized there is strength in numbers.
I hope you succeed,Unions aren't for all but they have helped all wether people know it or not.They should'nt be the blame all when some fat ass polititcan wants to save money.People want a Police man to take a bullit for them but they don't want to pay him,they want a fireman to walk into a burning building and save their life or a life of a loved one....but not pay them for it,they want a Nurse or EMS tech to save their life ....but not pay them,they want teachers to continue to go to school have Masters degrees or doctorates.....and pay for that continuing education themselves...but not pay them for it,those are the reasons we still need Unions so the working man or women has a voice.[/quote]

They also know what they are choosing to do and accept the pay for what they are doing. BTW firemen and nurses do pretty good in my area and firemen can retire at around 50. I'd also add teacher do not do too bad for themself. I guess you also know if a teacher gets their Masters Degree they receive a higher pay.

So you think its totally out of line to ask firefighters police and teachers to pay 5% of their pension (it is money they are putting away for THEIR retirement) and 12% of their health ins?