Who are the Coach Killers?
 

I think we all know the players I'm talking about: Starting QB's of whom much was expected but who have only done enough to keep their starting jobs without making a difference for their teams. Ultimately, these guys are losers but they make their teams' fans miserable first.

[U]The Coach Killers:[/U]

1. Mark Sanchez. OMG! How bad can this situation possibly be? Remember when we tried to move up to get him? Whew!

2. Matt Cassell. What an incredible bust! This guy practically ruined KC on his own.

3. Carson Palmer. He quit on his teammates in Cinn and now he is absolutely terrible in Oak.

4. Ryan Fitzpatrick. The very definition of mediocrity. Why in the world did Buffalo extend his contract?

5. Kevin Kolb. Huge mistake by Az.

[U]Honorable Mention:[/U]

1. Jason Campbell (since he was the starter here for years). Isn't it about time to give him the title of "Coach Killer"?

2. Mike Holmgren. He's not a QB but the poor QB's he gave his coaches in Cleveland and his failure to make the trade to get RGIII has earned him mention on this list.

[U]Trending toward Coach Killer status:[/U]

1. Michael Vick. Does any QB turn the ball over in worst places or worst times than Vick?

2. Phillip Rivers. What has he done to help Norv Turner keep his job?

3. Tony Romo. He is just as likely to win the game for the opposing team as he is for his own. He is the master of the bad interception. The worst part for Cowboys fans is that he tortures them by making one outstanding play after another while ultimately losing the game.

4. Jay Cutler. Up and down. Hurt a lot. Volatile personality. He is a great talent but can he be the leader his team needs?

5. Josh Freeman. The talent is there but he just doesn't seem to have the killer instinct. Frankly, he seems a bit blah to me.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

I agree with your first five. Your last five, not so much. Maybe Vick. Phillip Rivers suffers more from being coached by Norv Turner than the other way around in my opinion. He's still a great talent that I feel is among the best in the league. Chicago is an elite team when Cutler is playing, and Josh Freeman is still young and developing - plus the Bucs are 6-5 - way too early to call him a coach killer.

As far as Jason Campbell, I guess you could call him a coach killer, although you might want to consider the prior success of the coaches, other than Joe Gibbs, that has picked him up as a starter.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

I think Sanchez, Rivers, and J. Campbell were helped by terrible GMs (Tannenbaum, AJ Smith, and Vinny).

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

Vick is already at coach killer status if you ask me. He's the first name that came to mind.

I wouldn't put Rivers in the conversation. The talent around him has really dropped off the last couple years.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

I guess you could call Vick this yr a coach killer but I remember last yr him kicking our ass. The good news is Reid will probably be leaving our division after this year.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=Mattyk;968148]Vick is already at coach killer status if you ask me. He's the first name that came to mind.

I wouldn't put Rivers in the conversation. The talent around him has really dropped off the last couple years.[/quote]

I can understand why you say that about Vick. There is so much else wrong with the Eagles that I'm not yet ready to say he's a Coach Killer. I'm getting closer each time I see him play.

I might have been a bit tough on Rivers. Especially since the GM has wrecked that team, IMO.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

The Eagles will probably go into full overhaul mode in the offseason. They look a lot like the Redskins did in the past. Pick up great free agents, who do not perform for you once you get them.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

I wouldn't necessarily put Campbell in that group. He had no offensive line and most of his games were played under Jim Zorn. No one expected much success.


I think a coach killer should be someone where expectations are sky high, like Sanchez, Kolb, Romo and Rivers. Rivers has put up great stats at times, but that team will never win with the combination of him and Norv and may not until they're both gone.

I'll add in:

*Going out on a limb here. I'm going to predict that Cam Newton will be in this category by the end of his career. Who has had more hype and actually lived up to it in the first year (aside from RGIII who will be a legend)? We've seen a huge regression in his second season despite his roasting of the worthless Eagles D last night. What will separate him from Griffin is Newton's massive ego and "me first" attitude. He celebrates himself when the team is losing. He looks to blame anyone else after losses (see press conferences). The moment he said "I want to be an entertainer, not just a QB", I knew he wouldn't reach his potential on the field. I can't stand his "Superman" antics or his attitude. Those will be his downfall. He acts more like a diva WR than a leader on the field, which is what a QB needs to be. When the team is winning, it's all smiles and dancing. When the team loses, which they will continue to in the next few years, he's going to rub everyone the wrong way with his behavior, including coaches and teammates. He'll divide that locker room and get Rivera fired before his tenure there is up. He might be a fantasy football star, but he's not going to be a winner in the NFL.


*Instead of a name, I'll name a position as a QB Killer. The Cleveland Browns QB. Doesn't matter what name is on the jersey...Anderson, Quinn, McCoy, Weeden. No amount of money or high 1st round picks seem to bring success to that position for that team. They must be cursed.

Until RGIII, we were stuck in a similar situation. That's why I don't blame JC personally. He did the best he could in a hopeless position.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=Mattyk;968148]Vick is already at coach killer status if you ask me. He's the first name that came to mind.

I wouldn't put Rivers in the conversation. The talent around him has really dropped off the last couple years.[/quote]

So has Rivers' play.

That game where he basically played on one leg was gutsy and impressive, but he's had more mistakes from his hot head than hero performances.

I do agree though, his GM and basically entire team is a mess, but a Pro Bowl QB should be able to hide a lot. It hasn't with Rivers. Look at his last couple of seasons...20 INTs last year and already 14 this year. He's starting to fall apart from where he used to be. He's still an accurate passer, but he's starting to look just like Jay Cutler, a boom or bust guy who will make mistakes in tough situations...and won't act like a man about it.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

I don't get this list. If you're a QB on a team who may be fired you're a coach killer?

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=Monkeydad;968169]So has Rivers' play.

That game where he basically played on one leg was gutsy and impressive, but he's had more mistakes from his hot head than hero performances.

I do agree though, his GM and basically entire team is a mess, but a Pro Bowl QB should be able to hide a lot. It hasn't with Rivers. Look at his last couple of seasons...20 INTs last year and already 14 this year. He's starting to fall apart from where he used to be. He's still an accurate passer, but he's starting to look just like Jay Cutler, a boom or bust guy who will make mistakes in tough situations...and won't act like a man about it.[/quote]

I'd chalk up his INTs to him trying to do too much with the limited talent around him.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=Monkeydad;968169]So has Rivers' play.

That game where he basically played on one leg was gutsy and impressive, but he's had more mistakes from his hot head than hero performances.

I do agree though, his GM and basically entire team is a mess, but a Pro Bowl QB should be able to hide a lot. It hasn't with Rivers. Look at his last couple of seasons...20 INTs last year and already 14 this year. He's starting to fall apart from where he used to be. He's still an accurate passer, but he's starting to look just like Jay Cutler, a boom or bust guy who will make mistakes in tough situations...and won't act like a man about it.[/quote]

Losing LT was big. Sproles hurt big time, Vincent Jackson has been a monster(his stats this year have been jaw dropping)...Rivers been hurt by lose of talent. Still dont know why they let Sproles walk.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;968181]I don't get this list. If you're a QB on a team who may be fired you're a coach killer?[/quote]I think I see what the OP's saying, talking about bad personnel decisions leading to coaches getting fired, and I agree with you, SS. Cause and effect aren't that strongly linked here.

I thought this thread would be about players that threw the coach under the bus, and the coach ended up getting fired. But since we're talking about players not trying to get coaches fired, just thru poor performance...

Jason Campbell qualifies as a coach killer as much as the others listed. It's telling that Joe Gibbs drafted him to be our QB long term, and the two times we made the playoffs was with Campbell on the bench. Once with Todd Collins, who wouldn't start anywhere without Saunder's 700 page playbook present. (But that '07 run was great, just overshadowed by ST21's murder.)

Vinny Cerrato and Jim Zorn's careers were absolutely tied to finally developing Campbell into a star QB, dumping Saunders and benching Collins after Gibbs left. And Shanahan wasted little time trading Campbell afterwards.

Carson Palmer to Oakland was a coach killer move for Oakland. The Sanchez/Tebow moves are coach killers. I could be wrong, but I think NOT getting RG3 helped kill Holgrem as GM.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=HailGreen28;968206]I think I see what the OP's saying, talking about bad personnel decisions leading to coaches getting fired, and I agree with you, SS. Cause and effect aren't that strongly linked here.

I thought this thread would be about players that threw the coach under the bus, and the coach ended up getting fired. But since we're talking about players not trying to get coaches fired, just thru poor performance...

Jason Campbell qualifies as a coach killer as much as the others listed. It's telling that Joe Gibbs drafted him to be our QB long term, and the two times we made the playoffs was with Campbell on the bench. Once with Todd Collins, who wouldn't start anywhere without Saunder's 700 page playbook present. (But that '07 run was great, just overshadowed by ST21's murder.)

Vinny Cerrato and Jim Zorn's careers were absolutely tied to finally developing Campbell into a star QB, dumping Saunders and benching Collins after Gibbs left. And Shanahan wasted little time trading Campbell afterwards.

Carson Palmer to Oakland was a coach killer move for Oakland. The Sanchez/Tebow moves are coach killers. I could be wrong, but I think NOT getting RG3 helped kill Holgrem as GM.[/quote]

I thought the Tebow thing was more of the owners then the coach.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

My idea of a coach killer is a guy who puts up numbers or teases you to the point where you think you can win with him, but in the end he just isn't able to get a team over the top and therefore leads to the coach who put too much faith in him getting fired.

So that said I wouldn't put JC on the coach killer list.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

I was hoping Jason Campbell would amount to something. I'm still trying to figure out seven years later what Joe Gibbs saw in him. Gibbs should have drafted Aaron Rodgers instead of Jason Campbell.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=Mattyk;968214]My idea of a coach killer is a guy who puts up numbers or teases you to the point where you think you can win with him, but in the end he just isn't able to get a team over the top and therefore leads to the coach who put too much faith in him getting fired.

So that said I wouldn't put JC on the coach killer list.[/quote]

That's pretty much what I had in mind as the definition of Coach Killer. My mind might have wandered away from that definition a bit in some cases.

As for JC, I felt that he showed a strong arm and the ability to make some plays his legs. He often moved the team well only to fail to convert touchdowns in the Red Zone. I felt for quite a while that he might get over the hump and become a good NFL starter but he never did. That's why I mentioned him.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=firstdown;968213]I thought the Tebow thing was more of the owners then the coach.[/quote]Oh yeah, in most of these situations, the coach is the scapegoat for the owner's decisions, players, etc. Agree totally.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;968220]I was hoping Jason Campbell would amount to something. I'm still trying to figure out seven years later what Joe Gibbs saw in him. Gibbs should have drafted Aaron Rodgers instead of Jason Campbell.[/quote]

SF should have drafted Rodgers #1 overall.

A lot of teams made a big mistake that day.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;968220]I was hoping Jason Campbell would amount to something. I'm still trying to figure out seven years later what Joe Gibbs saw in him. Gibbs should have drafted Aaron Rodgers instead of Jason Campbell.[/quote]

Someone who was smart, athletic, and could fight his guts out.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

my definition of a coach killer is completely different.
A coach killer is a superstar talent who refuses to be a team player and undermines his coaches authority.

Jeff George is the classic example for NFL players.
Dwight Howard( NBA ) is another clear example of a coach killer.

Only Jay Cutler and Michael Vick could be considered coach killers.
Vick wanted to do things his way in ATL and often battled Coach Mora.
Cutler also had the same problem in Denver, fortunately the coach was smart enough to trade him. Lately, they've been team players.

The other quarterbacks are guys playing for crappy teams or were poorly scouted.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=jamf;968241]my definition of a coach killer is completely different.
A coach killer is a superstar talent who refuses to be a team player and undermines his coaches authority.

Jeff George is the classic example for NFL players.
Dwight Howard( NBA ) is another clear example of a coach killer.

Only Jay Cutler and Michael Vick could be considered coach killers.
Vick wanted to do things his way in ATL and often battled Coach Mora.
Cutler also had the same problem in Denver, fortunately the coach was smart enough to trade him. Lately, they've been team players.

The other quarterbacks are guys playing for crappy teams or were poorly scouted.[/quote]

I agree with you...which means your post is the only one worth reading

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

Tim tebow. Mark Sanchez. Tony Romo. Kevin kolb. Blaine gabbert

Carson Palmer is NOT TERRIBLE in Oakland. In fact he's basically carrying that offense and has put up pretty good numbers this season.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;968267]Carson Palmer is NOT TERRIBLE in Oakland. In fact he's basically carrying that offense and has put up pretty good numbers this season.[/quote]Good eye, he is playing better now.

The Raiders gave up a first and the next year's second rd pick though. And Palmer had 13 TDs and 16 INTs last season, and Hue Jackson isn't there anymore. I'd say that trade "killed" the coach, even though Palmer isn't that bad.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

I dont know how Cutler made it on the OP's list. He's a clutch QB and the most valuable player on the team. Just look at how they play with him vs. without him. Josh Freeman is doing the exact opposite of trending towards coach killer. He'll probably never be in the same group of elite players like Brees, Brady, or Rodgers, but he's a good QB who's getting better.

Regarding Cassell, hes a bad QB but he hasnt ruined KC on his own. The mere idea shows that you havent watched them very much. Theryre awful in just about every way imaginable. Cassells a bust, but not a coach-killer. No ones getting fired because of Cassell.

Palmer is not a coach killer either - he is what he is - a former pro-bowler well past his prime.

The rest of the original list is more or less spot-on with my opinion.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;968267]Carson Palmer is NOT TERRIBLE in Oakland. In fact he's basically carrying that offense and has put up pretty good numbers this season.[/quote]i should know, he's my main fantasy qb.

just glad i started dalton this past week.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

have you seen chicago without cutler? they go from okay to terrible. it's hard to call him a coach killer when he can help them get 10 wins a season.

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[quote=Chico23231;968194]Losing LT was big. Sproles hurt big time, Vincent Jackson has been a monster(his stats this year have been jaw dropping)...Rivers been hurt by lose of talent. Still dont know why they let Sproles walk.[/quote]

I don't know why they let Brees walk.

Sure he hurt his shoulder at the time, but he was always better than Rivers.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

Brees was a pretty big medical risk at the time.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

More like what was the GM or front office thinking?

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=Mattyk;968559]Brees was a pretty big medical risk at the time.[/quote]

The Saints sign medical-risk Brees and look like geniuses. The Skins add medical-risk Brown and everyone complains a few years later. Yet the only difference is luck (or lack of it) in recovery from injuries.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=Lotus;968566]The Saints sign medical-risk Brees and look like geniuses. The Skins add medical-risk Brown and everyone complains a few years later. Yet the only difference is luck (or lack of it) in recovery from injuries.[/quote]

Yup good point. If Brees didn't come back like he did the Saints are probably still known as the Aints. He was worth the risk, obviously.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=Lotus;968566]The Saints sign medical-risk Brees and look like geniuses. The Skins add medical-risk Brown and everyone complains a few years later. Yet the only difference is luck (or lack of it) in recovery from injuries.[/quote]good call, brown was still in his 20s when we traded for him, could have really helped out here for years.

but that didn't happen

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=Mattyk;968569]Yup good point. If Brees didn't come back like he did the Saints are probably still known as the Aints. He was worth the risk, obviously.[/quote]

Brees could have easily ended up like Chad Pennington. Lucky for the Saints (and Brees) he didn't.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

Anyone else watch Rivers at the end of the game yesterday?


I was thinking about this thread as he drove for the loss...throwing an INT into triple-coverage in the end zone, where all three Bengals were IN FRONT of his WR who had zero chance to get anywhere near the ball...on 4th down, after throwing three straight passes in the red zone nowhere near any of his own players on 1st, 2nd and 3rd downs. What a disaster.

Bad coach, sure, but we can't blame lack of talent for Rivers' decline and failures. He has had the best TE in the game for years, along with the best FB and good RBs with names like Sproles and Mathews when healthy. His WRs have usually been solid and above-average, even after V-Jax left. Malcolm Floyd and Robert Meachem are solid...if he could get the ball into their hands.

I think he's developed the same mental block as Cutler. When things get tough, their brain just shuts down and they make horrible decisions...then cry about it.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

[quote=Mattyk;968569]Yup good point. If Brees didn't come back like he did the Saints are probably still known as the Aints. He was worth the risk, obviously.[/quote]

Or they are the Miami Dolphins who signed Culpepper instead of Brees. For Brees, it was essentially either N.O. or Miami - and Miami had a legitimate shot. Brees picks NO and Miami trades for Culpepper.

In looking for something on the story, I found this: [url=http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2009/10/let-me-just-say-this-dolphins-coach-nick-saban-said-wednesday-in-addressing-the-subject-directly-for-the-first-time-it-wa.html]The full story on why Brees isn't a Dolphin | Miami Dolphins In Depth[/url]

Reading it, I remember the draft where Miami passed on Brees. In it SD and Atlanta traded spots in the first round and SD got Tomlinson and Brees and Atlanta got Vick. Brees was the 2nd QB off the board after Vick as the first pick in the 2nd round. Interesting how these things play out.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

Rivers has thrown some of the worst interceptions I have ever seen.
A former Charger said on a local post game show that Rivers is throwing those interceptions so he can get out of town.
That is pretty hard to believe but so is the following GIF.

Rivers has definitely finished off Norv.

[IMG]http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/marmpick.gif[/IMG]

From Yesterday:
[IMG]http://i2.wp.com/gifsection.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/rivers-int-12-2-12.gif?resize=550%2C307[/IMG]

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

if he does want out of town, these are definitely freudian slips.

Re: Who are the Coach Killers?
 

It looks like he's throwing the shot put.