Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

I've looked at the articles noting how the Coles/Moss trade seriously diminished our Cap space. I'm incredulous. My hopes for next year just totally dropped. My question is why would we do such a thing? I've always been a Snyder/Gibbs fan, but if the Cap analyses seem correct, the Coles trade was utterly stupid. I don't care how good Moss can be, or how disgruntled Coles would be. Can someone please give me a good reason as to why the Skins did what they did? I'm starting to think the elevator doesn't go all the way up to the Redskins' clubhouse!

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

I say better to take the hit now rather than keeping a guy who could be a complete distraction...a distraction of ridiculous proportions really...around. Can you imagine the upcoming season with Coles as a Skin. Every day players would be answering questions about Coles and the team. Big time problems there. Get rid of him and deal with the pain now rather than putting it off for another day. I think this shows the exact opposite of what you said. It shows responsibility and a willingness to do the right things.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

I agree -- this was bungled and badly. Does anyone else think Cerrato is struglling with the concept of walking upright? He must have a picture of The Danny with a goat or something, because he's ruining the team. Without more $$, Smoot is gone, which is a shame given that the guy plays with real heart (recall him playing with a busted sternum -- that's as tough as it gets).

Separately, does anyone know what the story is with Mike Barrow? If he's back and healthy (two big ifs), that will make the loss of Pierce a bit easier.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

Sometimes creating a TEAM rather than a collection of individuals hurts. Look to the Pats who give up big NAME guys every year but keep the core guys together. Coles was not a Redskin. His cap hit will hurt a bit but for the first time in years, the skins are exercising fiscal restraint and not going after names but after players. They did the best they could with the situation.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

After the Coles trade, we have approximately 1.85 million in cap room + an additional 2 million from trading Gardner. We're done trying to sign anymore big-name FAs this year. All told, approximately 4 million in cap-room for 2005 to sign Smoot, some of the vets like Ray Brown, and the draft rookie pool, which is more than sufficient. If Smoot gets anywhere from a 10-12 million SB from another team, we should be able to match. Otherwise, we draft a CB like Antrel Rolle or Pacman Jones in the 1st round draft and Harris starts, with Wilds and the rookie CB alternating at Nickel.

It was better to take Coles' cap hit this year - didn't leave us in the best of shape, but still minimal losses.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

Why is anybody surprised that we may lose Smoot??

Even before the Coles deal went down the likelihood of re-signing Smoot wasn't good.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]I say better to take the hit now rather than keeping a guy who could be a complete distraction...a distraction of ridiculous proportions really...around. Can you imagine the upcoming season with Coles as a Skin. Every day players would be answering questions about Coles and the team. Big time problems there. Get rid of him and deal with the pain now rather than putting it off for another day. I think this shows the exact opposite of what you said. It shows responsibility and a willingness to do the right things.[/QUOTE]


I agree frplg, Cole's wanted out to keep him around would not be the best thing for the team. IMO this trade may be the best thing that has happened to us under Snyder, it will teach him disipline as well as the value of the draft, both he and Gibb's need a lesson in that department, now they have no choice but to tighten up the purce string's and be wise with the draft.

It's not like we recieved a scrub in return, Moss can be electrifying in more way's than one, you here all these draft expert's talking about Clayton this year, well Moss was a better prospect coming out of college and is more explosive so let's not look at this deal as if we recieved nothing for Cole's, we will clear him off the book's in 1 season let him be someone else's headache after that.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=calia]I agree -- this was bungled and badly. Does anyone else think Cerrato is struglling with the concept of walking upright? He must have a picture of The Danny with a goat or something, because he's ruining the team. Without more $$, Smoot is gone, which is a shame given that the guy plays with real heart (recall him playing with a busted sternum -- that's as tough as it gets).

Separately, does anyone know what the story is with Mike Barrow? If he's back and healthy (two big ifs), that will make the loss of Pierce a bit easier.[/QUOTE]

What does Vinny have to do with this??

He's a glorified scout and Snyder's racquetball buddy, he doesn't have much to do with making moves.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

If Coles doesn't demand his release two years into a seven year deal, this doesn't happen. There are plenty of good reasons to criticize the Front Office - this ain't one of them.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

were talking like this trade has gone through,am I the only one worried Coles wont pass his physical because of his toe? if he doesnt,man were screwed,then we have a receiver who doesnt want to be here with a bad toe,personally,I wish Coles wanted to play here,he was my favorite redskin last yr,I thought he made some great catches and took some viscous hits but was always ready to play

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]I say better to take the hit now rather than keeping a guy who could be a complete distraction...a distraction of ridiculous proportions really...around. Can you imagine the upcoming season with Coles as a Skin. Every day players would be answering questions about Coles and the team. Big time problems there. Get rid of him and deal with the pain now rather than putting it off for another day. I think this shows the exact opposite of what you said. It shows responsibility and a willingness to do the right things.[/QUOTE]


I disagree. You play Coles if he's playing well, or you sit him down on the bench (or even lock him out of the clubhouse). Either way, you don't allow one player to ruin your ability to keep or get other players that will help the team. Coles is laughing all the way to the bank!

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=BrudLee]If Coles doesn't demand his release two years into a seven year deal, this doesn't happen. There are plenty of good reasons to criticize the Front Office - this ain't one of them.[/QUOTE]


EXACTLY! Coles authored this...neither the front office nor Joe Gibbs wanted Coles to leave. The only one who wanted him to leave was Coles himself. What are we supposed to do? Keep Coles against his will?

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

LC did not want to play for a hall of fame coach.

LC opted not to have surgery on his foot which could affect the rest of his career.

LC would only return a part of his signing bonus if released (for no value.)

I think we made the right move!

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Why is anybody surprised that we may lose Smoot??

Even before the Coles deal went down the likelihood of re-signing Smoot wasn't good.[/QUOTE]


My thought on Smoot is this I believe the coaching staff believes we will be as good or better without Smoot, I think part of that offer may be out of loyalty and the fact that Smoot does give everything he has on the field, but a line has been drawn in the sand, Smoot want's to get more, and we believe he deserves less. I think the coaches are well aware of how good William's is capable of making a player look better than he really is, something tell's me they are really high on Wild's but still a little tenative to rely on someone unproven to start the season, personally I think at this point we should both part way's Smoot is not worth his asking price, I don't believe he's worth what we are offering to begin with, doesn't mean I don't like the guy, but it doesn't mean we have to overpay for a popularity contest either.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]EXACTLY! Coles authored this...neither the front office nor Joe Gibbs wanted Coles to leave. The only one who wanted him to leave was Coles himself. What are we supposed to do? Keep Coles against his will?[/QUOTE]

You just don't let the mutineers run the ship!

And if we did want to let him have what he wanted, why didn't we insist on renegotiating his contract to lessen the hit?

Just hard to figure.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

It actually helps our cap situation for 2006. We do not have the burden of his contract and with a few more moves we will be under that cap number as well. Also since there really is no cap for 2007 they have put us in a great situation (Snyder, Gibbs, and Cerrato). Get rid of the selfish players and keep the team players. How do you see this seriously affecting our cap space this year and next?

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

Even Wilds wouldn't be a drop off in our secondary. Williams is a genius, the players totally buy into the scheme.

Smoot or not,we're set on D.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=Tahoe Skin]You just don't let the mutineers run the ship!

And if we did want to let him have what he wanted, why didn't we insist on renegotiating his contract to lessen the hit?

Just hard to figure.[/QUOTE]

So you'd rather keep an unhappy player around and let him potentially become a locker room distraction down the road, if he isn't already?

Some players have already voiced their opinion that if a player doesn't want to be here he should leave. Those players that feel that way probably wouldn't be likely to warm up to Coles after this mess and it would just simmer in the back of their minds.

Nobody wants to go into battle with someone who isn't playing for the right reasons.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]So you'd rather keep an unhappy player around and let him potentially become a locker room distraction down the road, if he isn't already?

Some players have already voiced their opinion that if a player doesn't want to be here he should leave. Those players that feel that way probably wouldn't be likely to warm up to Coles after this mess and it would just simmer in the back of their minds.

Nobody wants to go into battle with someone who isn't playing for the right reasons.[/QUOTE]

Yes, rather than screw up my ability to sign 2, 3 or 4 other quality players, I would rather keep an unhappy player around and let him potentially become a locker room distraction down the road.

Winning changes player attitudes!

And players can police themselves.

I would even lock him out if it got bad, rather than screw up my cap space.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=Tahoe Skin]Yes, rather than screw up my ability to sign 2, 3 or 4 other quality players, I would rather keep an unhappy player around and let him potentially become a locker room distraction down the road.

Winning changes player attitudes!

And players can police themselves.

I would even lock him out if it got bad, rather than screw up my cap space.[/QUOTE]


What other 2, 3 or 4 players were we going to sign? It's not like we were going on a FA shopping spree.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]What other 2, 3 or 4 players were we going to sign? It's not like we were going on a FA shopping spree.[/QUOTE]

bingo

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

I understand the frustration - IMO we did the best we could. Compare with McCardell and the Bucs last year. They reach a stalemate - McCardell wouldn't play, and the team didn't want to outright cut him. He was inactive until the deadline, when Tampa got a 3rd and a 6th from the Chargers (who did well enough that those are low picks). Clearly the Bucs didn't get equal value. They also got nothing in 2004.

We also didn't get equal value. Santana isn't the WR Coles is. He does, however, return punts well, and has 15 touchdowns in the last two years. He isn't a stiff, and he will have the full training camp to work with his new teammates.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

Gibbs' philosophy is we want players who take pride in being a Redskin and buy into what we're trying to accomplish. He wants to see a united team with a lot of heart and character; and he knows that keeping Coles would only act as a dividing force amongst the players.

Gibbs also wants to develop trust and respect between the players and the coaches. He wants players to trust him that when he says he will try to accomodate a request to leave the team, he will follow through on it. Both Gardner and Coles wanted out, so he's making accomodations. That does wonders in showing the team that Coach Gibbs is a man of his word, and he'll treat the players with respect.

Also, Gibbs is big on creating a team with long-term stability, he wants to be able to keep a group of guys together for a while. With the way the team stood with Coles on the books in 2006, he probably realized that he'd have to make some cuts anyway. And since he cut Coles this year, he has increased his chances at keeping the rest of the team's core together (Portis, Jansen, Ramsey, Samuels, Springs, R Thomas, Arrington, S Taylor, M Washington etcetera).

Think of it this way, I'd rather lose the "core player" right now who doesn't want to be here, than lose a core player in 2006 who does want to be here.

We're finally building a team environment with some continuity and stability, instead of Dan Snyder's fantasy football team. I know there is a downside with the salary cap this year, but I think we'll see a benefit coming from the intangibles deparment.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]Think of it this way, I'd rather lose the "core player" right now who doesn't want to be here, than lose a core player in 2006 who does want to be here.[/QUOTE]
Thank you, sir. I have a new signature.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

My problem with this trade is that we did not get enough in return to justify this cap hit. The skins would have been better served getting Coles to forfeit the 5 mil bonus in exchange for his release. I think that 5 mil in cap space was more valuable than Moss.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

This really was a no win situation. If they keep Coles they have a disgruntled poison in the locker room. To get rid of him we take the hit now and can't afford probably to resign Smoot. On the other hand our offense needed more fixing then the defense.

DJDunick

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

Can you imagine how much crap we would've gotten if we kept Coles, and he sat out the whole year (a la McCardell)?

I can already hear it

"Redskins made a huge mistake by keeping Coles instead of trading or cutting him the offseason"

"Why pay a guy who wasn't going to play for you"


We're always going to be criticized for every move we make.

Thats why we need to start winning some games to shut all the haters up.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

Maybe someone can help me with this. Why are we going to pay the remaining 5 mil of his signing bonus. I understand it was a signing bonus but he wants out of his contract not us. I understanding the cap hit regardless of if we pay him I just don't understand why we are paying it.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=htownskinfan]were talking like this trade has gone through,am I the only one worried Coles wont pass his physical because of his toe? if he doesnt,man were screwed,then we have a receiver who doesnt want to be here with a bad toe,personally,I wish Coles wanted to play here,he was my favorite redskin last yr,I thought he made some great catches and took some viscous hits but was always ready to play[/QUOTE]

Oh My God! Please let Coles fail his toe test, so we can undo this stupid trade!

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=firstdown]Maybe someone can help me with this. Why are we going to pay the remaining 5 mil of his signing bonus. I understand it was a signing bonus but he wants out of his contract not us. I understanding the cap hit regardless of if we pay him I just don't understand why we are paying it.[/QUOTE]

Who knows. We gave D. Sanders all his money too. :vomit-smi

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]What other 2, 3 or 4 players were we going to sign? It's not like we were going on a FA shopping spree.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps we're not going on a spending spree cause we now have $9 million LESS to do so because of the Coles trade. I can think of several people we could have gotten, beginning with one named Fred Smoot.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=Tahoe Skin]Oh My God! Please let Coles fail his toe test, so we can undo this stupid trade![/QUOTE]

Jets are not going to fail his toe. Even with a bad toe he is better than Moss. this trade is a done deal...

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=Tahoe Skin]Perhaps we're not going on a spending spree cause we now have $9 million LESS to do so because of the Coles trade. I can think of several people we could have gotten, beginning with one named Fred Smoot.[/QUOTE]


We weren't going on spending spree anyway (read the Washtimes article titled "Skins done in Free agency") even before the Coles trade. And as for Smoot, we made our offer, and we weren't going to budge (read the WPost).

I really don't know why you think we were better off keeping a guy who doesn't want to be here. Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet and cut your losses. Coach Gibbs has said over and over again that he wants players who want to be "real Redskins". Coles doesn't fit that criteria.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=firstdown]Maybe someone can help me with this. Why are we going to pay the remaining 5 mil of his signing bonus. I understand it was a signing bonus but he wants out of his contract not us. I understanding the cap hit regardless of if we pay him I just don't understand why we are paying it.[/QUOTE]
Because we were contractually obliged to. Why didn't we fight it? Because it isn't a big free agency selling point to race like mad to avoid paying players already on the roster.

Put it another way. We can get another $5 million. We can't get back our reputation if we screw someone out of $5 million.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

[QUOTE=Riggo44]Who knows. We gave D. Sanders all his money too. :vomit-smi[/QUOTE]So what your saying we could have negotiated with him and not paid the 5mil.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

It appears to be a big mess. Arrington's and Sean Taylor's contract are issues too.

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It's a good move if we can get our #1 signed we won't have a prob finding the room for the rest of our pick's they won't be high priced after the #1, and we clear Cole's contract for next year when we will be in a more realistic position [hopefully] to make a serious push at a SB.

I am more than willing to go into this season without Smoot, and at this point I don't want him for the money he's asking, I believe it's to much, nobody else has so much as come close to anything we have offered for Smoot, I wonder why?

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

Yes. I hated this deal from day 1 and now finnally so do the press .

We didn't get a Scrub? Word out of NY Moss was on the way to the bench and McCarrins would have a new starter friend. He is injury prone and becoming hit shy ... but hey at least we got something he will go well with our outher No.3. recievers like Thrash and Givens.

We couldn't have made Coles play ? No? When was the last player to hold out for an entire year?

He would have been locker room cancer ? If we won who would listen ? If he was locked out he would have cost us 3.2 million this year. Instested he cost us 9.2 million andhe gets to play for someone else . How does that make sence finicially or football way ? And for all of those relived we have saved the cap room remember we still need to replace him .

Did we shoot ourselves in the foot ... Damn yes. Did we move into the Basement oh god yes.....


There is one thing that bothers me though . The trade cap hit isn't 9.2 million but 6 million. I thought we had more than 8 million under the cap after the Nobel, Harris restructures and ecent signings.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

bedlamVR, Noble and Harris haven't re-signed or restructured. They barely take any cap space.

The last player to hold out for an entire year was Keenan McCardell last year until he got traded.

Re: Did We Shoot Ourselves In The Foot??
 

Wow, there's some really good points being made on both sides of this debate. Like most fans, I'm incredibly frustrated with this whole situation, and Laveranues Coles is now officially on my "least favorite athlete" list, and would probably be at the top of that list-- if it weren't for the fact that Terrell Owens plays for the Eagles.

I agree with the sentiment that this was pretty much a lose-lose situation, and the only person you can really put any blame on is Coles himself. He bears the sole responsibility and culpability for this mess. His yards-per-catch have been on a downhill slide since he injured his toe, he refuses to get the toe surgically repaired, and now he blames Gibbs' conservative approach to his statistical decline. While Gibbs certainly-- and voluntarily-- bears some of the blame for the offense's failures, the poor performances of the players within that offense are equally accountable for the overall ineptitude, and Coles is just as guilty for his inability to seperate from defenders as Brunell is for failing to throw catchable passes, and Gardner is for dropping half the passes that were catchable.

Coles decided to take the Redskins hostage this offseason, blame Gibbs for his problems, and force the team to lose valuable cap space to grant him his wish of leaving only two seasons after Snyder generously gave him a huge signing bonus-- a bonus the Redskins will honor, despite his refusal to honor the terms of the contract which brought him that bonus.

Yes, the Redskins got screwed cap-wise for 2005. But the silver lining is that removing Coles from the books for 2006 definitely eases the burden of that cumbersome cap year, and the Redskins were able to get a valuable player in exchange for Coles. Most importantly, they rid themselves of a player that would have been a distraction and a potential locker room cancer. You might argue that he kept quiet last season, but the fact is, there are players who heard or otherwise sensed his disgruntlement throughout the season. Maybe that's why guys like Randy Thomas were so quick to say they'd rather not have a player like that around.