Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

Since I don't watch college football forgive my ignorance on this kid's skills.. I know he is the top TE this year in a WEAK class and we could really use a playmaking as well as blocking TE. Some people here are really high on him, my question is, assuming he is around in the late 1st round, is he worth a #1 next year and possibly a pick this year to trade into the round to get him? I am not a fan of trading #1 picks and he is not worthy of the #9 pick would he make enough of an impact to make it worth the risk?

For the record, I am fine with Royal as our pass catching TE, Cooley at H-back and Sellers/Kozlowski as the blocking TE assuming they all return.. I also assume that we will draft Antrel Rolle @ 9 so trading back won't be an option.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

We don't need him and there are concerns over his speed and a sports hernia. He is probably no better than an early second pick right now until his hernia situation is cleared up. We need a BLOCKING TE and while he would be adequate as a blocking TE he is defintely more a pass catching TE. We can get an UDFA that can be a decent blocking TE or choose from about 5 different ones in FA. I like the guy but he is not worth the manuevering.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

No. Please, no. A first next year and a possible late round is too much. It's not wise, or neccessary for a move like this, though I understand he's of rare talent. And by the way, Gibbs believes the draft is for adding depth to an already established roster. I wouldn't feel let down or suprised if we did draft him at #9. And it's possible Gibbs has Miller rated higher than three of the top five WRs coming out! Wouldn't a great pure TE along with Cooley open up some seams for our speedy WRs? Miller shouldn't fall as low as 15. If we can trade down from #9 and pick up a second or another third what's wrong with that? :oink:

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]We don't need him... We can get an UDFA that can be a decent blocking TE or choose from about 5 different ones in FA. I like the guy but he is not worth the manuevering.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure about UDFAs. Again this year's draft is kind of weak in the TE department. There aren't any Ben Watsons, Ben Utechts, Bennie Jopprus, Brian Joness, Ben Hartsocks, Chris Cooleys, or Micheal Gains (they all came out the same year) coming out this year. It's possible that any TEs not drafted can have simliar or better careers than any of these guys mentioned. Do you not think any TE is worthy of being picked early in the first? :oink:

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

I think Heather Miller is like a Todd Heap, but a better blocker. To fast for a LB to cover and to big for a safety to cover. He catches everything near him. I wouldn't draft him at #9 but I would trade down to 17 thru 20 get a second round pick and draft him. The skins are not going to be able to draft Rolle he will be gone before 9. To good of a player.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

There seems to be quite a few good CBs coming out this year. Reading up on the top ten or so, guys like Carlos Rodgers and Marlin Jackson seem to fit our style of play too. Guys have to be willing to help with run support. :oink:

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

I would love it if we drafted Heath Miller, but I definitely don't want to see us trade away next year's #1 and another pick to do it. I don't like mortgaging the future like that.

I would look at the possibility of dropping back in the first round to get him. I think FRPLG underrates his blocking ability. He wasn't used as a blocker much in college because of his pass catching prowess, but when he was asked to block he was very effective. He's big and strong, and I'm confident his blocking would develop very nicely with Bugel's tutelage.

My take on our situation right now is that our first priority is CB. I think Harris will make a very good starting corner in the league, and I think Wilds looks pretty promising, but CB is a position where you just can't have too much talent. So drafting Rolle or Pac Man at #9 is something I think we should do. DE is also something we could use, but I'm happy with the current situation and I would totally scratch DE off the list if we end up with Courtney Brown. I'm fine with the WRs we have, but if we add Mike Williams at #9 I won't be upset.

But really, when you look at that situation, I personally don't see dire need at any position, not even CB. That's why I think it would be wise to trade down for extra picks and build depth. Miller would be my #1 target if we did that, and a close second would be one of those CBs like Marlon Jackson.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

It's funny how Mike Williams gets a free pass for being slow as molasses, but Heath "Bar" Miller does not. He's a TE for crying out loud! :oink:

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

What's taking us so long to trade Gardner? Teams have to think he's worth at least a third rounder. :oink:

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

Guys....we don't need a pass catching TE. Plain and simple. We need a BLOCKING TE. While Miller is an adequate blocker as far as pass catching TEs go, he is not a quality blocking TE. In fact there have been rumblings that his blocking ahs been over rated anyways. We have FAR FAR FAR bigger needs than Heath Miller.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=BossHog]What's taking us so long to trade Gardner? Teams have to think he's worth at least a third rounder. :oink:[/QUOTE]
There hasn't been a need for him with other options available.. Now that Plax is off the market I expect he'll be traded to Cleveland or Seattle for a 3rd round pick in the next 2 weeks.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]Guys....we don't need a pass catching TE. Plain and simple. We need a BLOCKING TE. While Miller is an adequate blocker as far as pass catching TEs go, he is not a quality blocking TE. In fact there have been rumblings that his blocking ahs been over rated anyways. We have FAR FAR FAR bigger needs than Heath Miller.[/QUOTE]

I strongly disagree with the "FAR FAR FAR bigger needs" part. I'm not sure you can point to our roster and find a major weakness.

I know you want a CB desperately, but stop for a second to think about who Walt Harris is:
- Drafted 13th overall by the Bears in 1996
- 7-year starter at CB with the Bears and Colts before blowing out his knee
- Led the Bears in interceptions in at least one season

I'm cool with drafting a CB at 9 because Harris and Springs are both older, but for the near term I don't consider CB a dire need.

At WR, I don't see a major problem unless you think Taylor Jacobs is a no-talent ass-clown. I like him, and I want to give him a chance to prove himself rather than drafting someone who will take his spot, relegating him to the bench, and never allow him to show what he can do.

At DE, we had Wynn, Daniels, Warner and Evans last year and were ranked 3rd in the league on D. This year we have the same guys. Show me where the problem is.

I feel like the Redskins have their bases pretty well covered right now, and whoever they end up drafting will serve to fill out depth.

And by the way, who the hell doesn't need a TE that can run-block, stretch the middle of a defense, and generally be another serious offensive threat?? Look at KC's offense with Tony G, SD's offense with Antonio Gates, and imagine what the Ravens would be without Todd Heap. Joe Gibbs could use a Heath Miller effectively; he's not a coach that isn't willing to adapt his system to his talent.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

So you mean to tell me that we have no holes in our roster? :oink:

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

Gibbs said on WJFK that pure blocking TE's are a rarity in college these days. Does anyone know who would be the best blocking TE in the draft this year and what round he is projected to go in??

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=BossHog]So you mean to tell me that we have no holes in our roster? :oink:[/QUOTE]

No. But show me where the hole is that would be considered a "FAR FAR FAR bigger need" than a playmaker like Heath Miller? I think a young CB to replace Springs & Harris is a need, but only because those guys are getting old, not because they're not good enough. If we draft Rolle or Pac Man, I'll bet you any amount of money that Harris starts and the rookie gets nickel, at least in 2005.

Besides, I tend to subscribe to the best-player-available draft theory rather than drafting for need. In today's NFL, your needs change so much year to year that I think you're best off filling needs through mid-priced free agents and then drafting your core talent at any position.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

Go to our Offense-Prospects link from the home page. And look these guys up. They are in some type of value order. if you hover over the top right side of them for a second. You will get a synopsis of positives and negatives for each player. You may overvalue Heath Miller a bit. A recieving tight end isnt what Gibb's wants. He wants a blocking tight end. His H-back does all of the short yardage recieving for him. And in the red zone, Cooley proved very effective.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

I really like Heath Miller, but he's not worth trading next year's first and a pick this year to move up in the late 1st early 2nd to get him. There is a chance we may need to use that 1st rounder next year for a qb. and he's also not a must have type of player at his position even though I think he could be a regular pro bowl player with his route skills and great hands.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

I really don't see us trading up for a TE, don't see it at all.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

You guys are homers for UVA. Heath Miller will never make a pro bowl. Trade anything to get him. Fuck that. If he slides to the 3rd, then consider it. Guys, again, again, again, Joe doesnt need a recieving tight end. He likes Cooley for short yardage packages, thats why he created the h-back. His tight ends block mostly. If he trades any pick to position ourselves to pick up that asshole, then Just paint me blue and silver and slap me!


Kellen Winslow was a much better te last year, and we picked up Taylor. Come on guys. I thought this site was for the intelligent, and informed fan.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

Monksdown, I don't think anyone here is advocating the idea of trading up to get Miller. The question is what are the Redskins' needs? I personally don't see any major holes, so I think it makes sense to trade down. If they get Miller in that scenario I'd be happy. I'd also be happy with a guy like Marlon Jackson at CB or a guy like Clayton at WR, because we'd be drafting to fill out depth. My point was just that I don't see a need to get stuck into one positional need on draft day because we don't have major holes. And hey, Gibbs was looking hard at Winslow last year, so you know he at least entertained the idea of having a TE like that. I don't think Gibbs is one of those coaches that refuses to change his system. I think if he felt Miller would be a good addition, he would add him and find ways to use him.

All that said, I don't think Heath Miller is on the Redskins' radar. I think they're looking more at CB and WR. But I wouldn't mind if we got Miller.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=Monksdown]You guys are homers for UVA. Heath Miller will never make a pro bowl. Trade anything to get him. Fuck that. If he slides to the 3rd, then consider it. Guys, again, again, again, Joe doesnt need a recieving tight end. He likes Cooley for short yardage packages, thats why he created the h-back. His tight ends block mostly. If he trades any pick to position ourselves to pick up that asshole, then Just paint me blue and silver and slap me!


Kellen Winslow was a much better te last year, and we picked up Taylor. Come on guys. I thought this site was for the intelligent, and informed fan.[/QUOTE]

By the way, never threaten to become a Cowboys fan again. That's borderline blasphemy.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]Guys....we don't need a pass catching TE. Plain and simple. We need a BLOCKING TE. While Miller is an adequate blocker as far as pass catching TEs go, he is not a quality blocking TE. In fact there have been rumblings that his blocking ahs been over rated anyways. We have FAR FAR FAR bigger needs than Heath Miller.[/QUOTE]


Exactly! I have also heard he's not that fast, we have Cooley, Portis, and now we need a pass catching TE???? I guess we don't need WR's with those 3 catching passes?????

I have no clue what the fascination with this guy is, especially for us who have no need for a pass catching TE, we need a big blocking TE who can catch the occasional pass! Which will be avail. later in the draft.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

if he goes in the first it will be to the steelers and he is most likely gonna go. I say trade down just a few in the first to like 20-25 and pick up a second or third.... that way we get him AND a second or third rounder

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

We have bigger needs than Miller. Pass rushing DE- Barrows has no upside so put LB there-Gibbs is also extremely high on a LB out of Az. Alex Barron OT would not surprise me.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Exactly! I have also heard he's not that fast, we have Cooley, Portis, and now we need a pass catching TE???? I guess we don't need WR's with those 3 catching passes?????

I have no clue what the fascination with this guy is, especially for us who have no need for a pass catching TE, we need a big blocking TE who can catch the occasional pass! Which will be avail. later in the draft.[/QUOTE]

offiss, I would like to take this time to thank you for educating those less knowlegeable fans by taking the time out to explain things to them. You are a gentleman and a scholar. You are right, a big blocking TE is more of a need than a pass catching one.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]I think FRPLG underrates his blocking ability. He wasn't used as a blocker much in college because of his pass catching prowess, but when he was asked to block he was very effective.[/QUOTE]

Wrong...I don't rate his blocking abilty at all. I am simply expressing what I have read in numerous reports. He blocks adequately for being a pass catching TE. And secondily there are plenty of TEs who blocked well in college that wouldn't do well in the NFL. He is a PAS CATCHING TE who blocks decently...that is all.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]I know you want a CB desperately...[/QUOTE]
I have not once advocated taking a CB in the first round.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]No. But show me where the hole is that would be considered a "FAR FAR FAR bigger need" than a playmaker like Heath Miller?
[/QUOTE]
First off a pass catching CB is less valuable than a starting CB. I would argue a weakness at CB is worse off than a total lack of receiving production at the TE spot. So by that measure CB is a bigger need. An EVEN BIGGER need is at WR. We have no proven #1 WR...and were not talking about a bunch of second year players. These are guys who have some upside but we can't count on them. Williams is going to be better than all of them. FIll the WR with him if he is there.
[QUOTE=Schneed10]
Besides, I tend to subscribe to the best-player-available draft theory rather than drafting for need.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Heath Miller is not going to be the best available player unless we trade down to the end of the first round at best. If there is a real play maker available when we pick then we take him because we go with the "best-available-player".

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]First off a pass catching CB is less valuable than a starting CB. I would argue a weakness at CB is worse off than a total lack of receiving production at the TE spot. So by that measure CB is a bigger need. An EVEN BIGGER need is at WR. We have no proven #1 WR...and were not talking about a bunch of second year players. These are guys who have some upside but we can't count on them. Williams is going to be better than all of them. FIll the WR with him if he is there.

I agree. Heath Miller is not going to be the best available player unless we trade down to the end of the first round at best. If there is a real play maker available when we pick then we take him because we go with the "best-available-player".[/QUOTE]

I disagree that WR is a big need. I'd be ok with it if we drafted Mike Williams because I think he'll become a hell of a player in the NFL in a few years. But look at the track record of rookie WRs in the NFL. It isn't pretty. He is unlikely to come in and make an impact right away.

If we can get Rolle or Pac Man at 9, I'd be fine with that. And we're very likely to get one of the two there. But trading back wouldn't be a bad idea, and all I'm saying is that if we end up with Miller in a trade down, I'd be fine with that too.

Here's a scouting report on him at scouts.com:
"Big, strong tight end effective catching the ball as well as blocking for the passing or running game. Strong at the point and getsmovement from run blocks or anchors in pass protection."

Now, I know you're not guilty of attacking me, FRPLG, but whoever the idiot was (angryssg?) who insinuated I wasn't knowledgable can try to put his knowledge up against mine any day of the week and come out a loser every time. Miller is a good run blocker, and he gives the ADDED BONUS of being a pass catching TE. He's just known for being a pass catcher because that's how he was used, but that doesn't mean his blocking sucks. Miller may be able to be had in the beginning or middle of round 2, which wouldn't cost a lot on the salary cap either. So if we can trade down out of 9, and get a CB like Marlon Jackson and end up with Heath Miller, I'd be a happy camper.

This whole thread started because someone asked if we should trade our 1st rounder in 2006 to get him this year. I say no way, but if we should end up with the kid on our team through a trade down, we'll be a more balanced offense.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=Monksdown]Trade anything to get him. Fuck that.[/QUOTE]


I agree. IF we trade down, and that is a HUGE IF, I think that we will most likely take WR or CB at that later pick and use the extra value we get to help build depth at some of the positions we are weak at, like MLB, S, and RG.

I see us drafting a TE for sure this year, but not Heath Miller and not anyone in the first.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

I don't think we get better than a 5th rd. pick for Gardner-he is such a bust.Probably won't go anywhere.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

C'mon now. Name a WR in this year's draft who'll probably be drafted in the 3rd round or lower who's a better prospect than Gardner is as a starter. He's durable and you know exactly what he can do against bonafide NFL competiton. Teams better wise up in a hurry. It'll be too late when they find out their rookie 1st or 2nd round selection isn't ready for the big league... this year. :oink:

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=BossHog]C'mon now. Name a WR in this year's draft who'll probably be drafted in the 3rd round or lower who's a better prospect than Gardner is as a starter. He's durable and you know exactly what he can do against bonafide NFL competiton. Teams better wise up in a hurry. It'll be too late when they find out their rookie 1st or 2nd round selection isn't ready for the big league... this year. :oink:[/QUOTE]

Yes but you know Gardner is inconsistent and he costs $2 million a year and wants an extension for more money. If you're going to draft a WR in the 3rd round, at least he has the potential to be solid and he won't even cost
$1 million per year. You have to factor the $ into the equation. I think a 4th rounder sounds about right for Gardner, you could make a case for a 3rd. A second rounder is impossible in my opinion.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

If we get offered a 4th for Gardner we best grab it

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]Yes but you know Gardner is inconsistent and he costs $2 million a year and wants an extension for more money. If you're going to draft a WR in the 3rd round, at least he has the potential to be solid and he won't even cost
$1 million per year. You have to factor the $ into the equation. I think a 4th rounder sounds about right for Gardner, you could make a case for a 3rd. A second rounder is impossible in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

2 mil a year is cheap and there will be someone who sees that Gardner is probably more naturally talented than all the WRs this year other than the top 3 or 4. I would agree his pending contract situation is somewhat of a turn off but He will not command marquee money by any strecht so it is not that big a deal. We'll get a 3rd for him.

I would also say Gardner IS a solid WR. He is simply not a 1st round pick type production guy. Drafting a WR in the 3rd round MAY net you a SOLID WR and it may net you a training camp cut...you have no idea. At least with Gardner you know you are getting a guy with experience, talent and a 1000 yd season under his belt. Seems better to me than any crapshoot WR you're gonna get in the 3rd.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

Reminder: Cliff Russell was a 3rd round pick for us. Sucess of 3rd round WR is a lot lower than you'd expect. If I had a need for a possession reciever and all it was gonna cost was a 3rd round pick to get a guy with size, strength, work ethic and a 1000 yd season I would jump at it. That being said he needs to move on from the Skins. He isn't what we need and all the acrimony around Coles and him makes it best if eh leaves anyways.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

i would like them to get hammer to run the ball for the real tough yards, touchdown dives and to close out games. someone like duckett with falcons or like gerald riggs in gibss first run. i believe they could pick this up in later rounds. if they decide to go after miller or williamson then they should definetly trade down. i like portis but the fact is brown out of auburn is my kind of back. guys like him don't come around very often. i can wish can't i?

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]2 mil a year is cheap and there will be someone who sees that Gardner is probably more naturally talented than all the WRs this year other than the top 3 or 4. I would agree his pending contract situation is somewhat of a turn off but He will not command marquee money by any strecht so it is not that big a deal. We'll get a 3rd for him.

I would also say Gardner IS a solid WR. He is simply not a 1st round pick type production guy. Drafting a WR in the 3rd round MAY net you a SOLID WR and it may net you a training camp cut...you have no idea. At least with Gardner you know you are getting a guy with experience, talent and a 1000 yd season under his belt. Seems better to me than any crapshoot WR you're gonna get in the 3rd.[/QUOTE]

Do solid WRs drop clutch passes? Sorry, calling Gardner solid just doesn't make sense. If he really were a solid, dependable starter, he'd garner more than a 3rd or 4th round pick in a trade. I don't think there's a team out there who feels he is worth more than a 3rd rounder; and you yourself state that a 3rd rounder usually produces a speculative grade guy. That 1000 yard season was 2 years ago, what have you done for me lately?

The bottom line is Gibbs doesn't feel like he can trust Gardner in key situations because he's so consistent. Don't talk about Gardner's stats and all that crap, I don't care if he's had a 1000 yard season. The bottom line is he can't be trusted to get it done in crunch time because you can't depend on him to hold onto the ball.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]Reminder: Cliff Russell was a 3rd round pick for us. Sucess of 3rd round WR is a lot lower than you'd expect. If I had a need for a possession reciever and all it was gonna cost was a 3rd round pick to get a guy with size, strength, work ethic and a 1000 yd season I would jump at it. That being said he needs to move on from the Skins. He isn't what we need and all the acrimony around Coles and him makes it best if eh leaves anyways.[/QUOTE]

I realize a 3rd rounder is not likely to yield a superstar. For every Laveraneus Coles (3rd rounder) there are 10 Cliff Russells. But $2 million is a lot more expensive than $380K, more than 5 times.

Besides, whoever said we'd take a WR with that 3rd rounder? You can get good players in the 3rd round at lots of positions, Chris Cooley comes to mind.

The pick we get in return for Gardner isn't even the main benefit from trading him though. The main benefit is the cap room we'll save. That's why we should be happy with a 3rd rounder, anything higher than that is completely unrealistic.

Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]The bottom line is Gibbs doesn't feel like he can trust Gardner in key situations because he's so [b]consistent[/b].[/QUOTE]

Sorry, meant to say inconsistent.