Does character count?
 

The news in the NFL this week has been dominated by Owen's holdout/trashing his teammates and Winslow's cycle shenanigans. Two morons doing moronic things.

IS anyone (especialy those in the Brown's or Eagles' front offices) surprised?

Didn't Owens bitch about his pay and trash teammates in S.F.? Didn't KW2 look and act like a spoiled brat trouble maker in college? Don't teams give psych tests or talk to former teammates or coachs? It seems like teams never look into a person character before they hire them or worse they think that just moving to a new city will magically change a screw up.

This is a team sport perhaps more than any other sport. Here are the Eagles in the SB last year and is there any stories about their chances this year or their draft picks. No its all about TO. If you don't think one bad attitude in a locker room can mess up a team you dead wrong.

Granted a few times a guy turns his life around. Chris Carter comes to mind. However for every C.C. there is a T.O., KW2, Randy Moss, and Lawerence Phillips. These guys are thrown second and third chances and in my mind it is no surprise they have or will screw it up. There were people on this forum who said the skins should make a run at TO or Randy Moss to solve our WR woes. I was like[b] NO WAY. [/b]I wouldn't care if it was an automatic 120 catchs a year the downside is still to great. And I think there are 2 teams who are figuring that out and 1 (Raiders) who will this year.

Re: Does character count?
 

Truer words have never been spoken.

Re: Does character count?
 

The "character thing" with Gibbs will seem ever wiser as time goes on. Everybody the same! Each piece of the machine as important as the next. Replaceable parts. Pull together for a common goal. Something the NFL could use more of. A.................TEAM

Re: Does character count?
 

Word.

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Sure character counts, but players as talented as TO will always find someone willing to put up with his act... for a little while at least.

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True. I think he will have worn his welcome out when the Eagles release him and he does the same ol' shit to another team. He's running himself out of work.

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Sure character counts, but players as talented as TO will always find someone willing to put up with his act... for a little while at least.[/QUOTE]

An unfortunate reality in today's NFL.

Re: Does character count?
 

If teams will stop putting up with that type of shit, then maybe we won't have to see players like TO in the league anymore. Once you establish the precedent that you don't allow that type of behavior on your team and the rest of the league follows, maybe the NFL would be much more character-based.

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]If teams will stop putting up with that type of shit, then maybe we won't have to see players like TO in the league anymore. Once you establish the precedent that you don't allow that type of behavior on your team and the rest of the league follows, maybe the NFL would be much more character-based.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely agree............now just go and convince Al Davis and we're on our way.
Seriously though, that's the problem. There is always going to be at least one team out there who caters to guys like TO, Moss, etc. Heck, the Raiders have built a reputation on it. There's a reason why everyone on draft day was saying Maurice Clarett to the Raiders in round 6 (at least until the Broncos shocked the world at the end of the 3rd). If there was a way to get all the teams on board with what you're saying though, I'd be the first one on the campaign trail.

Re: Does character count?
 

I agree with everything, but man, you just can't put all the blame on these guys, I"mthe first to say that T.O., Winslow, and dudes like Moss are overpaid jerks who have lost touch of reality, but when you throw that much cash at a young guy who odds are is not very educated, didn't have a stong family base, and came from a low income background. . .its hard to keep your head straight.

Man, did I get way off the subject. . .sorry.

Now Winslow, well he is a jackass that has no excuse except for the fact that he is a Miami Hurricaine. . like Shockey.. . who is a monsterous piece of CRAP!! And I'm sorry to say, but Sean Taylor is starting to fall into that category, and I think Portis is a great RB and can be real funny, but sorry Portis fans, he is an IDIOT as well.

Why can't we clone C. Cooley????

Re: Does character count?
 

I'm afraid most of the blame has to be placed upon the encouragement of having free agency like it is today in the NFL. Some guys are making millions of dollars even before they prove themselves worthy of such a paycheck. Sure, they might have been great in college, but that means jack once you're in the big leagues.

Re: Does character count?
 

Having recently moved to Boston from Northern Virginia, I'm constantly inundated with the New England sports talk. Every once in a while, they decide to stop talking about the Red Sox for 5 minutes so they can mention the Patriots. While there's been a few issues in recent years with 'character issues' on the Pats team, it seems as though they by and large stay focused on the TEAM... hence the three Super Bowls in four years. Look at the transformation of former disgruntled Corey Dillon. He has TEAM written all over him now.

So how can the Redskins become a TEAM? Gibbs is talking the talk, shoot... everyone knows that's what he's all about. Then key is that the leaders on the field (players) need to step up and make everyone accountable. Get Moss and Taylor in the camps and make it known that TO-like behavior won't be tolerated on their team. You think the Redskins' teams of the 80s would have put up with a TO? Forget the coaching staff - we need stronger leaders on our team!

Re: Does character count?
 

Unfortunately it looks like the skins will tolerate or at least reward TO-like behavior. Moss gets his contract fixed after holding out, Taylor's new contract is on the way. Like someone said, talent will make some tems put up with this crap for a little while. Too bad the skins seem to be one of those teams.

Re: Does character count?
 

We had our share of problematic players in Gibbs' first stint. Riggins being the classic example.

Of course every team is going to have a couple of guys that don't fit your ideal mold, but the idea is to surround those couple of players with guys that do.

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I don't think that Moss got rewarded for holding out. I think he just signed the contract that he was due. If we overpaid for him, yes, I'd agree that he got what he wanted by holding out. I just don't think we signed him for anything more than an average contract for a decent #2 receiver.

Re: Does character count?
 

Malcolm, your statement seems to contradict itself. First you say he didnt get rewarded for holding out, then you say he got what he wanted by holding out. I'm confused.

I dont care what amount of $ he was paid or if it was in or out of line with other receivers, he held out and was rewarded for doing it. This is why the skins are in the mess that they are in, players that have never done anything come here for a payday. They know it, their agents know it and its killing this team.

Re: Does character count?
 

If part of the agreement with Moss and the Skins was that he would get a new deal upon his arrival here (which apparently was the case), then I can't blame Moss too much for holding out. A deal's a deal.

If he has a monster season and then holds out again next year, I'll be irked.

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=irish]Unfortunately it looks like the skins will tolerate or at least reward TO-like behavior. Moss gets his contract fixed after holding out, Taylor's new contract is on the way. Like someone said, talent will make some tems put up with this crap for a little while. Too bad the skins seem to be one of those teams.[/QUOTE]I would not put Moss in the category as a hold out. He only missed voluntary work outs. Yes he should have been with his team but I would have to save hold out for missing a mandator pratice or camp.

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=irish]Malcolm, your statement seems to contradict itself. First you say he didnt get rewarded for holding out, then you say he got what he wanted by holding out. I'm confused.

I dont care what amount of $ he was paid or if it was in or out of line with other receivers, he held out and was rewarded for doing it. This is why the skins are in the mess that they are in, players that have never done anything come here for a payday. They know it, their agents know it and its killing this team.[/QUOTE]

Just like Matty said, "A deal is a deal." The contract was due regardless of holdout. He could have shown up at the park, been at all the workouts and still would have gotten a new contract. When I say he didn't get rewarded, I'm saying we didn't overpay him because of his holdout. We paid him, what I feel, is a typical amount for an above average receiver.

Re: Does character count?
 

He may have stayed home from workouts until he got his contract, but that doesn't mean the Skins were giving into his demands. Signing him now was just smart business. The guy is a free agent after this season. He just came off a bad year, so now is the time to strike if you want to get him for a discount price. If he puts up 1100 yards and 8 TDs this year, I guarantee you he'll command a lot more than what we just paid him. His "holdout" isn't what motivated the Skins to sign him. They signed him because they felt they could lock him in long-term at a price that they think will prove to be very worth it.

Now, how good Moss really is can be debated. But if you think he's a #1 receiver, as they do, then signing him now was smart.

If you think he's a bum, then that something entirely different.

Re: Does character count?
 

A little off subject, I was looking at that interview with Rosenhaus. DAMN, that guy is such a douche. I did like the things he had to say about the Skins as a team (not the comment about Snyder though).

Re: Does character count?
 

If you think the skins have locked moss in long-term then you are fooling yourself. If he has the kind of season you mention he will no doubt want a new contract and hold out again. However its doubtful the skins would pay because for whatever reason the skins dont seem to hang onto guys, theyd rather bring in new guys and pay them. There is no such thing as long-term in the nfl today.

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]We had our share of problematic players in Gibbs' first stint. Riggins being the classic example.

Of course every team is going to have a couple of guys that don't fit your ideal mold, but the idea is to surround those couple of players with guys that do.[/QUOTE]I read and article that talkd about how Gibbs had to deal with the same player behavor back in the 80's and then they talked about 5 or 6 different players. After I read the article I realized that things have not changed very much egos, holdouts, etc...

Re: Does character count?
 

I'd prefer us to deal with players like the Eagles do. Let them act like that and sit on the bench or get the hell out. That way, when we DO get players, they know what they are signing on for.

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=irish]If you think the skins have locked moss in long-term then you are fooling yourself. If he has the kind of season you mention he will no doubt want a new contract and hold out again. However its doubtful the skins would pay because for whatever reason the skins dont seem to hang onto guys, theyd rather bring in new guys and pay them. There is no such thing as long-term in the nfl today.[/QUOTE]

This is foolishness. Santana Moss isn't the same kind of bad-character guy that T.O. is. He won't demand a new contract next year. Take it to the bank.

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=firstdown]I read and article that talkd about how Gibbs had to deal with the same player behavor back in the 80's and then they talked about 5 or 6 different players. After I read the article I realized that things have not changed very much egos, holdouts, etc...[/QUOTE]

I think the difference is that now players have more freedom to move than they did back then. Teams looked the other way back then because the players had no real leverage.

Re: Does character count?
 

The difference is now there are more me "first and only" type guys. Riggins is a classic example of a trouble maker back in the day. He was selfish and thought little of other people or players...outside of the game. But when it came to playing football and being a team mate he fell into line. Nowadays guys like TO not only cause problems organizationally they also create issues within the team dynamic. I would feel somewhat differently about his current antics if he hadn't thrown McNabb under the bus. That shows you right there that the guy has absolutly no quality character bones in his body. He is a dumb shit asshole who only cares about himself and will stab anybody or team in the backs to increase in wallet and notoriety. What a idiot. At least Taylor isn't going around bad mouthing team mates or coaches in the media. TO is such a huge distraction that I can only think of one team more deserving...the Cowcraps.

Re: Does character count?
 

I still can't figure out how people can say Winslow has a poor character for getting into a bike accident. By the way, I didn't see this mentioned anywhere else - he was LEARNING how to ride in a parking lot. So he wasn't on the road when this happened. Everyone has to learn HOW to ride a bike.
"With his leg still on the mend, Winslow purchased a sport bike last month and was learning how to ride it in a parking lot when he hit a curb."
[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2053370[/url]

Re: Does character count?
 

I bet TO gets in the Hall of Fame before Monk. Pieces of shit like Irvin (who STILL isn't as bad as TO) will make it in! ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH.

Re: Does character count?
 

[quote]The difference is now there are more me "first and only" type guys. Riggins is a classic example of a trouble maker back in the day. He was selfish and thought little of other people or players...outside of the game. But when it came to playing football and being a team mate he fell into line. Nowadays guys like TO not only cause problems organizationally they also create issues within the team dynamic. I would feel somewhat differently about his current antics if he hadn't thrown McNabb under the bus. That shows you right there that the guy has absolutly no quality character bones in his body. He is a dumb shit asshole who only cares about himself and will stab anybody or team in the backs to increase in wallet and notoriety. What a idiot. At least Taylor isn't going around bad mouthing team mates or coaches in the media. TO is such a huge distraction that I can only think of one team more deserving...the Cowcraps.[/quote]

Does this mean Jon Jansen isn't a team guy? Didn't he throw Sean Taylor under the bus on draft day? At least TO made remarks about a game, Jansen got nasty with the man's personal life.

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]I think the difference is that now players have more freedom to move than they did back then. Teams looked the other way back then because the players had no real leverage.[/QUOTE]The article I read and the players they talked about that Gibbs had to deal with are the same exact problems we hear about today. I think the only difference is today we have more media and hear more about the situations teams and players are having. What was not news back in the 80s is big news tody.

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[QUOTE=Daseal]I still can't figure out how people can say Winslow has a poor character for getting into a bike accident. By the way, I didn't see this mentioned anywhere else - he was LEARNING how to ride in a parking lot. So he wasn't on the road when this happened. Everyone has to learn HOW to ride a bike.
"With his leg still on the mend, Winslow purchased a sport bike last month and was learning how to ride it in a parking lot when he hit a curb."
[url="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2053370"]http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2053370[/url][/QUOTE]

Can you imagine how much it would suck if he DOES have to pay back $4.4 million? I have problems paying back people $20, but $4.4 million?!?

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What did Jansen say about Taylor? I don't remember that, I'm curious.

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He started talking about his DUI (which he was innocent of) on the draft show. It lowered my view of Jansen. Talk about him not being in camp all you want, but don't bring that into it.

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Damn, now I wish you wouldn't have told me that. :frusty:

I never thought Jansen would say something like that.

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I respect JJ even more for saying that. Hopefully is will help St wake up but I doubt it. It never ceases to amaze me how people will place themselves in difficult or shady looking situations then be surprised that others see them in a negative fashion. Impressions, whether true or not, are hard to change especially 1st ones. This is why people see Iverson in one light while McNabb is seen in another.

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[QUOTE=Daseal]I still can't figure out how people can say Winslow has a poor character for getting into a bike accident. By the way, I didn't see this mentioned anywhere else - he was LEARNING how to ride in a parking lot. So he wasn't on the road when this happened. Everyone has to learn HOW to ride a bike.
"With his leg still on the mend, Winslow purchased a sport bike last month and was learning how to ride it in a parking lot when he hit a curb."
[url="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2053370"]http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2053370[/url][/QUOTE]


This is not entirely true. Yes the bike was new and he had no experience riding it. However earlier that day or the previous night(can't remember which) he attended a motorcycle stunt show called starboyz. I have seen the video of him moments before the crash. He was doing like 50 in that small parking lot. He was doing spin outs and wheelies. There were skid marks all over that lot. In fact it has been said that he was doing a wheelie when the wreck happened. Now even though it says no bikes in his contract, I think had he bought a bike, got a licence, maybe took a riding class or was slowly trying the bike out that would be one thing. This guy was tying to pull one of those 'don't try this at home' things. An adult should know better.

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Daseal, I was one of those people that called him a bad character guy for his bike riding incident. I'll back off of that, I think you're right on that point. But I think he's dumb for choosing to ride a motorbike. That was a dumb choice, so maybe "bad character" isn't the right term. I just think it was stupid. #1, when you have a clause in your contract that says you will lose money if you miss games due to a motorbike accident, it's pretty dumb to choose to ride the bike. #2, when your teammates depend on you to be a big part of the team, it's pretty inconsiderate to do something as risk your health on a motorbike. It's just not smart any way you cut it.

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I agree Hijinx one article said the people he was with said he was a novice rider at best and a novice riding wheelies 100 yrds is not smart at all

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Think of it this way, Daseal. You're my QB, and I'm a WR with buttloads of talent. First off, you want to win games and fulfill your childhood dream of winning the super bowl. Secondly, you want to play well and put up numbers so you can get a big money contract. Now, here I am going out and partying all the time. I go to a club and hit on somebody's girl and get in a fight. I batter the dude with my massive WR body, and I get arrested. I miss eight games while serving a few months in jail. Now, how do you feel about me? I just hurt your chances of winning your super bowl, and I just hurt your chances at getting a big contract, because without me your WRs suck.

OK, so that was entirely hypothetical. But let's say Winslow misses 8 games. Isn't the effect on his QB, and the rest of his teammates, the same as the games I missed because I got in trouble with the law?

What I'm saying is, no matter whether you're a bad-character guy, or a decent guy but just plain dumb for riding a motorcycle, either way you're hurting your team. And that's the bottom line.