The coordinators
 

This team after 25 long years since SB 26 still hasn't turned a corner!!!! I'm disgusted by the poor coaching on both sides of the ball!!! The failure to adjust on defense and calling predictable plays on offense!

Sean McVay can't call plays worth a damn. Especially in the red zone.

On defense Joe Barry can't adjust to what the offense is doing worth a damn! Arizona called the wide receiver screen ten times and the defense never adjusted to it.... which was the reason why Arizona perpetually called that play. I want Ritchie Pettibon back!

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Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Today's outcome was disheartening but the team has made big improvements...on offense. The defense is another matter.

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Barry is gone prob.. IMO we have more talent than people think, just no execution

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[quote=skinsfaninok;1157949]Barry is gone prob.. IMO we have more talent than people think, just no execution[/quote]

Don't kid yourself. Only 4 guys on the defense would be starters elsewhere. If they had talent the execution would be there. We were fed a bunch of hype about this group in the off-season and as usual bit. On offense, we can run the table, but not with the defense dragging the team down. I have mixed feelings about
Barry. He doesn't have the pieces yet, but at the same time needs to be way more creative and aggressive in the playcalling to make up for the lack of talent.

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It all comes down to Philly now. If we can't destroy that team, then we just suck and are out of the hunt. We won't get over the hump of being contenders till the d gets overhauled.

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[quote=FlyerSkin;1157956]Don't kid yourself. Only 4 guys on the defense would be starters elsewhere. If they had talent the execution would be there. We were fed a bunch of hype about this group in the off-season and as usual bit. On offense, we can run the table, but not with the defense dragging the team down. I have mixed feelings about
Barry. He doesn't have the pieces yet, but at the same time needs to be way more creative and aggressive in the playcalling to make up for the lack of talent.[/quote]

safety and DT/DE are huge needs asap this OS

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It's both; a lack of talent and dreadful coaching on the defensive side. There's no way one factor can make an abomination that we call a defense in Washington.

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[quote=FlyerSkin;1157956]Don't kid yourself. Only 4 guys on the defense would be starters elsewhere.[/quote]

Norman, Perry Riley, David Amerson, and who is the fourth?

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People forget AZ was a SB favorite before the season, has a great D with really good corners and receivers that can rival the Redskins. Lauvao was killed by Campbell and their corners did a good job on Jackson and Crowder.

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[QUOTE=SFREDSKIN;1157963]People forget AZ was a SB favorite before the season, has a great D with really good corners and receivers that can rival the Redskins. Lauvao was killed by Campbell and their corners did a good job on Jackson and Crowder.[/QUOTE]
Told u they scared me all week. That team is way better than record says

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[quote=skinsfaninok;1157964]Told u they scared me all week. That team is way better than record says[/quote]

You also said will handle them, no problem. I said this game was no picnic.

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[quote=DYoungJelly;1157961]Norman, Perry Riley, David Amerson, and who is the fourth?[/quote]

Norman
Compton
Murphy
Kerrigan

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[QUOTE=SFREDSKIN;1157965]You also said will handle them, no problem. I said this game was no picnic.[/QUOTE]
Yep I thought we would win but o well next game up

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[QUOTE=FlyerSkin;1157968]Norman
Compton
Murphy
Kerrigan[/QUOTE]
Baker and cravens also. That's probably it. Breeland sucks ass

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I wouldn't give up on Breeland, when he goes to another and does well people will be whining.

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[quote=SFREDSKIN;1157972]I wouldn't give up on Breeland, when he goes to another and does well people will be whining.[/quote]

Of course he's gonna do well when he goes to another team, right now his problems are all mental. He did a solid job as the #1 before Norman got here but basically being demoted to covering the next best guy has fucked up his mentality. Damn shame too but unless he accepts not being "the man" he won't be as good as he used to be here.

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[quote=SFREDSKIN;1157972]I wouldn't give up on Breeland, when he goes to another and does well people will be whining.[/quote]

He sucks. Other than Norman and Fuller, we can replace our entire complement of defensive backs with draftees or top undrafted guys next May and probably we be a lot better. Breeland is just getting smoked when against top tier hideouts. I still remember guys in the old
Wash Post online skins forum bitching about the skins dbs under Norv sans Darrel Green. I would kindly take those guys over Breeland and our current crop of safeties any day.

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[quote=SFREDSKIN;1157972]I wouldn't give up on Breeland, when he goes to another and does well people will be whining.[/quote

He needs to get his act together.

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[quote=skinsfaninok;1157971]Baker and cravens also. That's probably it. Breeland sucks ass[/quote]

Forgot about
Baker. Left out
Sua just because he is a rook and gets an automatic pass as does
Fuller.

Re: The coordinators
 

This coordinator thread quickly devolved into yet another discussion of players. Let's get back to the coordinators.

Sean McVay bothers me more than Joe Barry as a coordinator because he has better players to work with than Barry does, yet McVay hasn't solved problems that the offense has had all season long.

This offense goes well until we get to the opposing team's 40 yard-line. At that point, it gets progressively less effective until it bogs down in the Red Zone, if it gets that far, until the play-calling becomes downright stupid inside the 10 yard-line.

- We settled for too many field goals last night. Long ones, too. Where are the effective plays inside the opponent's 40 yard-line?

- Why do we have so many procedure penalties, especially in the Red Zone? It's not one or two players or positions that get the penalties. It's interior linemen and tackles, tight ends, and even wide receivers. Who do we blame for that not getting fixed?

- We get a first down on the 2 yard-line. What do you do there? I'll tell you. You give the ball to Fat Rob and he scores. Red Zone 101. But not McVay. He calls a roll-out. It was open but Kirk threw a poor pass and a lineman committed a penalty on the play. That is a lost down and a penalty that should not have happened.

- Later on McVay calls a fade pattern in the end zone to DeSean Jackson versus Patrick Peterson. Are you kidding me? Go down on the field, stand between Jackson and Peterson and tell me if you think that pass could [U]ever[/U] be completed. Of course Peterson stopped it like he was shooing away a fly. Not to mention that, in general, Kirk is poor at throwing fade passes.

- Here is another question I'm asking myself about the Red Zone play calling: What is Jay Gruden's role in this nonsense? Does he approve of these play calls? Does he ever overrule McVay's calls? Does he call some of these plays himself? I don't know. What I do know is that Gruden hasn't fixed the problem.

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[quote=Bishop Hammer;1157942]Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Today's outcome was disheartening but the team has made big improvements...on offense. The defense is another matter.[/quote]

I totally agree. This team does sputter in the red zone but they still score points. The D still struggles to hold teams under 25 and that put a lot of pressure on the O. Hopefully in the off season there are improvements made on D.

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I can't put the false starts on McVay. What's he suppose to do about that? That is a 100 percent mental error. It's obvious to me that the oline isn't a good run blocking group. They're just not. And then there have been some bad play calls. It looked like we were really missing Reed yesterday. The red zone is a combination of things.

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Sean McVay is a solid offensive coordinator. Joe Barry can probably be a decent defensive coordinator with more talent on the defensive side of the ball. It comes down to which you want more - a savvy defensive coordinator who can take subpar talent and turn that unit into one that overachieves, or a middle of the road defensive coordinator who has outstanding talent that makes him look like a genius?

Many will go for the former, but I will tell you this, at some point, I don't care how good the DC is, the defense gets exposed. At least with the latter, you know that you have a solid, talented group on defense, and if they are failing, then it's because of the DC and his scheme. In yesterday's game, Barry called the correct defensive call, but the players didn't execute. And when the players did execute, the offensive players made great plays showed they were better.

So, as much as I'd like a genius DC who's coaching outstanding talent on the defensive side of the ball, I'm not sure if we're going to get that. I think SM will focus more on bringing in better players on the defensive side of the ball, and give Joe Barry all the help he needs to succeed. Simply put, defenses win championships, but offenses get you to those championships. So, I think we're about 90% there on offense, but the defense has to catch up. You give our coordinators one more year with better talent and see what happens from there.

Re: The coordinators
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1157992]I can't put the false starts on McVay. What's he suppose to do about that? That is a 100 percent mental error. It's obvious to me that the oline isn't a good run blocking group. They're just not. And then there have been some bad play calls. It looked like we were really missing Reed yesterday. The red zone is a combination of things.[/quote]

I know false starts can be fixed because other teams have far fewer of them than we do. Since it can be fixed and needs to be fixed then the coaches must fix it. I don't know how they're supposed to fix it and I don't care. Just fix it!

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[quote=KI Skins Fan;1157983]This coordinator thread quickly devolved into yet another discussion of players. Let's get back to the coordinators.

Sean McVay bothers me more than Joe Barry as a coordinator because he has better players to work with than Barry does, yet McVay hasn't solved problems that the offense has had all season long.

This offense goes well until we get to the opposing team's 40 yard-line. At that point, it gets progressively less effective until it bogs down in the Red Zone, if it gets that far, until the play-calling becomes downright stupid inside the 10 yard-line.

- We settled for too many field goals last night. Long ones, too. Where are the effective plays inside the opponent's 40 yard-line?

- Why do we have so many procedure penalties, especially in the Red Zone? It's not one or two players or positions that get the penalties. It's interior linemen and tackles, tight ends, and even wide receivers. Who do we blame for that not getting fixed?

- We get a first down on the 2 yard-line. What do you do there? I'll tell you. You give the ball to Fat Rob and he scores. Red Zone 101. But not McVay. He calls a roll-out. It was open but Kirk threw a poor pass and a lineman committed a penalty on the play. That is a lost down and a penalty that should not have happened.

- [B]Later on McVay calls a fade pattern in the end zone to DeSean Jackson versus Patrick Peterson. Are you kidding me? Go down on the field, stand between Jackson and Peterson and tell me if you think that pass could [U]ever[/U] be completed. Of course Peterson stopped it like he was shooing away a fly. Not to mention that, in general, Kirk is poor at throwing fade passes.[/B]

- Here is another question I'm asking myself about the Red Zone play calling: What is Jay Gruden's role in this nonsense? Does he approve of these play calls? Does he ever overrule McVay's calls? Does he call some of these plays himself? I don't know. What I do know is that Gruden hasn't fixed the problem.[/quote]

Agreed.

On that play Crowder was open on the other side of the field.
But it feels like we've seen that same playcall and execution again and again when inside the 10: a quick fade where KC just throws it that way into tight coverage without looking for any other solutions...

I have a hard time determining if that play is 100% bad playcalling or if KC could've taken the liberty of looking and throwing elsewhere... I mean he's the QB, he has to have the right to look for a better solution when the receiver is so obviously not open, hasn't he?!

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I hope that McCloughan himself forces Gruden to fire Barry! And I can only hope that McCloughan does the same with McVay. There are coordinators on the college level that can mix and blend up the play calling better! Perry Fewell would make the logical choice for the DC. Maybe then the team will return to the 4-3.

As a fan I know McCloughan is a smart football guy. I'm already looking past both Barry and McVay.,

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[quote=REDSKINS4ever;1158029]I hope that McCloughan himself forces Gruden to fire Barry! And I can only hope that McCloughan does the same with McVay. There are coordinators on the college level that can mix and blend up the play calling better! Perry Fewell would make the logical choice for the DC. Maybe then the team will return to the 4-3.

As a fan I know McCloughan is a smart football guy. I'm already looking past both Barry and McVay.,[/quote]

I certain would not get rid of McVay. Barry im up in the air depending on who McC/Gruden would be satisfied with if they would become available. Defensive side of the ball is lacking when it comes to talent.

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I'm happy with McVay overall. I have a beef with the red zone.

But Barry is not the answer. I can't think of one time that he has ever elevated the defense's performance to a level beyond the talent available. Which means he adds no value. He gets out of the group whatever the talent level that McCloughan hands him.

Yes they need defensive linemen and a rangey safety and I'd add some athletic and aggressive MLBs to that too. But if you're talking solely about the coordinator, what you should be looking for is whether we get production beyond that which we should, given talent. Can he scheme up and get pressure when we really need it, can he get the team communicating at an excellent level, can he get the team to play with tremendous discipline, can he get the team to recognize tendencies in opposing offenses and get a half step jump on the play?

No no no and no. Our defense wins only when Norman, Kerrigan, Murph, Smith, Cravens, or Baker win their matchups. That's it. Talent-driven success and talent driven failure.

The coordinator's job to to get the sum of the parts to add up to something greater. Barry just doesn't. He needs to be replaced.

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I have to agree with KI Skins Fan. The most troubling thing to me is the fact that this offense can move the ball at will against even the better defenses in the league, but cannot put it in the end zone against anybody...unless it's a 30-50 yard bomb. When Jackson caught that ball on Sunday and was tripped up at the 5...instantly I knew we were only getting 3 points. That's a problem that has persisted all season, with no evidence of improvement - at all. To me that's all McVay.

I think the defense is producing about what we can expect for the talent that is there. I think Barry is doing his best (liked the corner blitzes this weekend) with what he has...he can only get so creative without exposing the weaker links, so unless the players themselves step it up and play above their talent level, it is what it is...

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mcvay hurt his cause yesterday, now the media nationally is talking about our RZ issues

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[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1158045]I have to agree with KI Skins Fan. The most troubling thing to me is the fact that this offense can move the ball at will against even the better defenses in the league, but cannot put it in the end zone against anybody...unless it's a 30-50 yard bomb. When Jackson caught that ball on Sunday and was tripped up at the 5...instantly I knew we were only getting 3 points.[/quote]

We scored a TD on the drive where Jackson caught the bomb (QB sneak by Cousins).

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[quote=Schneed10;1158032]I'm happy with McVay overall. I have a beef with the red zone.

But Barry is not the answer. I can't think of one time that he has ever elevated the defense's performance to a level beyond the talent available. Which means he adds no value. He gets out of the group whatever the talent level that McCloughan hands him.

Yes they need defensive linemen and a rangey safety and I'd add some athletic and aggressive MLBs to that too. But if you're talking solely about the coordinator, what you should be looking for is whether we get production beyond that which we should, given talent. Can he scheme up and get pressure when we really need it, can he get the team communicating at an excellent level, can he get the team to play with tremendous discipline, [B]can he get the team to recognize tendencies in opposing offenses and get a half step jump on the play?[/B]

No no no and no. Our defense wins only when Norman, Kerrigan, Murph, Smith, Cravens, or Baker win their matchups. That's it. Talent-driven success and talent driven failure.

The coordinator's job to to get the sum of the parts to add up to something greater. Barry just doesn't. He needs to be replaced.[/quote]

That was one thing they were talking about in the game yesterday. Whenever Fitzgerald motioned to the line, it was 99% run, and the defense still couldn't stop it.

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[quote=PorkSkins;1158056]We scored a TD on the drive where Jackson caught the bomb (QB sneak by Cousins).[/quote]

Halleluja, yes we did. You are correct. But don't tell me you weren't thinking the same thing I was...that we were only going to get 3 out of that...

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If McVay can't fix his red zone issues then he has to go. I'm sorry but getting all the way down the field and not scoring touchdowns with this talent is unacceptable. We score a lot but should score even more.

From last year thru the first part of this year I've been one of Barry's worst critics. He isn't aggressive enough for me. But the last few weeks, I've stopped blaming him for everything. We just don't have much talent on defense. If we had the same offensive talent as defensive we'd be a 4-12 team.

I think they should both come back next year. McVay works on his red zone calling and Barry gets another chance with more talent. Hopefully they can both improve.

I'm starting to like Jay Gruden, I hope he sticks around for awhile.

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[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1158096]If McVay can't fix his red zone issues then he has to go. I'm sorry but getting all the way down the field and not scoring touchdowns with this talent is unacceptable. We score a lot but should score even more.

From last year thru the first part of this year I've been one of Barry's worst critics. He isn't aggressive enough for me. But the last few weeks, I've stopped blaming him for everything. We just don't have much talent on defense. If we had the same offensive talent as defensive we'd be a 4-12 team.

[B]I think they should both come back next year. McVay works on his red zone calling and Barry gets another chance with more talent. Hopefully they can both improve.

I'm starting to like Jay Gruden, I hope he sticks around for awhile.[/B][/quote]

This.

We have a saying here, "don't throw the baby with the bath water" (I'm sure you have a similar one). Means don't throw everything out when you get rid of something.

We have something going, this team is building, it needs better players at some positions, self-evaluation from the coaches, and time for everybody and the team to improve.

Re: The coordinators
 

Fire Barry.
Draft defense.
Trade Matt Jones.

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[quote=SFREDSKIN;1157972]I wouldn't give up on Breeland, when he goes to another and does well people will be whining.[/quote]

Breeland was our top DB last year. We should not give up on him. He is having a bad year, nothing the off season can't fix.

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[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1158096]If McVay can't fix his red zone issues then he has to go. I'm sorry but getting all the way down the field and not scoring touchdowns with this talent is unacceptable. We score a lot but should score even more.

From last year thru the first part of this year I've been one of Barry's worst critics. He isn't aggressive enough for me. But the last few weeks, I've stopped blaming him for everything. We just don't have much talent on defense. If we had the same offensive talent as defensive we'd be a 4-12 team.

I think they should both come back next year. McVay works on his red zone calling and Barry gets another chance with more talent. Hopefully they can both improve.[/quote]

If you feel McVay needs to go, then who should the Redskins bring in? There's not too many coordinators out there who coordinate an offense that averages the yardage and the points per game the Redskins already do. They're putting up these numbers against good defenses such as Philadelphia, Minnesota, Arizona, New York, Baltimore, and Green Bay to name a few.

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[quote=redskins4lif;1158137]If you feel McVay needs to go, then who should the Redskins bring in? There's not too many coordinators out there who coordinate an offense that averages the yardage and the points per game the Redskins already do. They're putting up these numbers against good defenses such as Philadelphia, Minnesota, Arizona, New York, Baltimore, and Green Bay to name a few.[/quote]

I said I think both coordinators should return next year, but I'd hope to see a drastic improvement in the red zone. Touchdowns and defense win championships.

There are always coaches available, including people we probably haven't heard about.

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Yeah as just give them time to really catch their act together. It starts with the Kirk Cousins and if the team lets him leave in FA, it would be a huge blow. But really think it is about trying to get to the next level and beyond.