Patten on Ramsey
 

ESPN


Redskins WR David Patten, telling PFW the differences he has noticed so far between Tom Brady and Patrick Ramsey: "[Ramsey] has all the capabilities. It's just a matter of him taking hold of them. I was telling Pat, when I see him, I see Tom Brady four or five years ago. Pat has that same command; he takes charge of the huddle. Tom just has that knack; he can make any throw. Patrick has such a strong arm. It's just going to come down to him developing that touch."


Nice compliment for our bot Ramsey, I believe he will take that step this season and become an elite QB in the NFL.

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

And then he'll make room for Jason "Canton" Campbell! Offiss' favorite Skins draft pick ever, haha!

Seriously though, there are really no excuses left for Ramsey this year and I fully expect him to step up and have a big year. And Patten will play a big part in getting him there.

I'm thinking 20-25 TDs 10-12 INTs

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

If Ramsey doesn't take the step this year he will never take it. Sorry folks, it's step up or bust year for him...forever a career backup!

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

I've got a good feeling about PR this year, it's his time to shine.

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

I do too. People won't just be making up what they've seen at camp.

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

PR can be a playmaker this year instead of just being a serviceable QB. He has red zone targets in Cooley and Royal, deep threats in Patten and Moss, a game-breaking RB in Portis, a tough between-the-tackles runner in Betts, a healthy Jon Jansen, and a year in Gibbs' system. I can see him performing well, I think this year he can make some serious plays.

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

He better, we have run out of excuses for him.
Besides his level of play, the play of the offensive line will be the biggest factor for Ramsey. If the line can generate a strong running game and give him time to throw, Ramsey's job will be much easier.
Sort of like what happened to Rypien in 1992. Rypien had so much time he could eat a ham sandwich behind the hogs and still throw deep the WR's.

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

I think that we are going to see a real commander in the huddle this year. It will be the first time in a long time. Now that Pat will know where his dump off passes are, he will be more relaxed about reading the field and going for the long ball. Guys are right, it's time for him to step up!

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

If Ramsey can stay healthy and our running game gets better this year, I see him having his best year. Theres no excuse for him. The o-line should be improved with Rabach, and Jansen, and now he has receivers that can get open with their speed.

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

If Ramsey can't get it done this year, it's definitely time to move on.

He should have a great running game behind him, a very good offensive line in front of him, and plenty of speed and experience at WR.

Plus it's his 2nd season in this system, we saw what happened in his 2nd season in Spurrier's system, he was leading the league in passing yards after the first 4 weeks of the season until the constant pounding caught up with him.

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]If Ramsey can't get it done this year, it's definitely time to move on.

He should have a great running game behind him, a very good offensive line in front of him, and plenty of speed and experience at WR.

Plus it's his 2nd season in this system, we saw what happened in his 2nd season in Spurrier's system, he was leading the league in passing yards after the first 4 weeks of the season until the constant pounding caught up with him.[/QUOTE]I agee on the pounding he has taken as a QB. Some of that is his own fault for holding on to the ball to long. Hopefully he is in a position now to make quicker reads and get rid of the ball. Weather its dumping the pass off, throwing long or just throwing it away he must make the quicker read. I think in his past three years he was thinking his way through and not playing by his ability and instincts. Last year in the last couple of games he looked more relaxed and I feel it will carry over to this year. Lets all just cross our fingers and hope that PR is the man.

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

I just like the fact that he's been wth us for this long and has played a lot of games. We're a better team with him and Campbell will get his chance later down the road. :oink:

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

One of PR's flaws is definitely his knack for holding on to the ball too long, but it seems that's the way he's learned how to play QB.

At Tulane he had a sive for an offensive line and he had to hold on to the ball for as long as possible to let his guys get open... he comes to the NFL and again has a sive for an offensive line and a system that stresses the deep ball and again he's forced to hold on to the ball for as long as possible.

Hopefully he can continue to unlearn this style of play and be smarter with the ball by dumping it off, throwing it away, etc.

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

I've said that PR should be a good quarterback for the past two years, now I don't know what would have happened if he started last year but in the Old Ball Coach's second year he didn't live up to the potential.

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72] He was leading the league in passing yards after the first 4 weeks of the season until the constant pounding caught up with him.[/QUOTE]


I knew about the pounding, but did not realize he had led the league!

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=backrow]I knew about the pounding, but did not realize he had led the league![/QUOTE]

I just did a quick check of his stats from '03, after the first 4 games he had thrown for 1036 yards, 5 TDs and 2 INTs with a QB rating of 88.625.

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

His average sack total per game was about th same in 2003 and 2004.

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=firstdown]His average sack total per game was about th same in 2003 and 2004.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. However, although there is no stat for it, you could tell that his sacks in 2003, were just plain guys having a feild day with him. Where he didnt take as many hard shots in 2004. Ya know what I mean?

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

Yeah, and if they had stats for "knock downs" I bet they would be substantially higher in 2003.

Re: Patton on Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]Yeah. However, although there is no stat for it, you could tell that his sacks in 2003, were just plain guys having a feild day with him. Where he didnt take as many hard shots in 2004. Ya know what I mean?[/QUOTE]I totaly agree it was much worse in 2003. I was just surprised when I looked up the stat.

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

They were out coached under the old ball coach. Defenses had a field day with the Redskins offense in 03. Game planning to pick up other teams blitzes was not a speciality so to say it was completely PR's fault for holding the ball to long is not fully accurate. Any quarterback would have struggled behind that line and blocking schemes. It was ritual week after week that teams came with the house no surprise we were just out coached. There has to be a happy medium between max protection and straight defense in your face when you drop two steps. I think the coaches are realizing that as well this year and will make the adjustments. He has followed the coaches plans to the T with Spurrier he would toss it around last year Gibbs asked him to be conservative and he adapted. PR is very smart, tough and in the right position will get it done.

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

It's tough to say he held the ball to long his first few years because he never had time to hold the ball, he was guilty of trying to actually plant and throw, Brunell didn't hold the ball to long and we saw the result of what happens to a QB when we run simplistic pass patterns with WR's who can't get open, or catch the ball when they are.

Ramsey is guilty of nothing more than trying to make a play when there was nothing there, which was the case the majority of the time, teams knew exactly how to play us on defense, as Portis said it's what like they knew what we were running, as far as I am concerned Ramsey has been scapegoated by inferiour coaching his whole career, my only concern about Ramsey is will Gibbs catch up this season to utilize all of his talents?

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

I like Ramsey's guts, courage, and leadership abilities, as well as his willingness to work hard to improve. All of those qualities are most important for any qb. Talent alone isn't enough (look at Jeff George). I also like Ramsey's rocket arm, and it's good he's shown improvement on his accuracy and ability to move around. But unless he fixes his touch on long passes, his ability to read defenses, and continues to improve his poise in the pocket, he won't remain with us beyond this year. I'm really rooting for the guy, but I also realize Campbell is waiting in the wings and has all the abilities necessary for a Gibbs type qb.

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

Jermus22, what abilities do you think he has that would make him a Gibbs type QB? Brains are the biggest attribute for a Gibbs QB, then a strong arm, considering Campbells first wonderlik test he scored a 9, and he doesn't have elite type arm strength, then consider Ramsey as far as intelligence goes is bordering on genious level, and has one of the strongest arms in the NFL, which vastly exceeds Campbells, if Ramsey can't get it done under Gibbs then what would make you think Campbell could? Also consider it took Campbell 4 year's of playing in college to figure out the college game, and IMO excelled his last year because of superiour talent surrounding him, why should anyone believe he can remotly get it done on the NFL level? Especially next season?

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

Is it fair to say it took Campbell four years of playing college ball to understand the college game? I mean didn't he have four different offensive coordinators he had to learn from? It's not like he was ever given one solid system to learn under

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

According to this report Campbell's first wonderlic score was a 14, he took it again and got a 28.

[url="http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2005draft/Campbell,Jason-QB-Auburn.htm"]http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2005draft/Campbell,Jason-QB-Auburn.htm[/url]

[quote]Positives... Has a very strong throwing arm and quick feet to avoid pressure, but is better suited throwing out of the pocket. ... Does a nice job of carrying out fakes and has a quick, high release with the strength to get the ball downfield. ... Is developing good toughness in the pocket and no longer looks for a rush lane or to hold on to the ball too long when his primary targets are covered. ... In 2004, Campbell had very good success with the deep outs, fades and posts. ... Shows better timing and the ability to give his receivers a chance to compete for the ball than he did in the past. ... Does a good job maneuvering when forced out of the pocket, but is better standing in the pocket than on the roll out, as he is more effective when he has a chance to time his throws. ... His natural athletic skills are what makes him an intriguing prospect, but understand that this is a player that has had to digest four different offensive systems during his four years in college. ... Made excellent progress in most areas of his game over the last year. ... Used to lock on to his main target too much, but coach Al Borges showed him that with patience, he does a much better job of scanning the field or taking hits stepping up in the pocket.

Negatives... Still, for a player of his size, he shows good mobility. ... When he rolls out of the pocket, he will sometimes hold the ball low and exposed, resulting in costly fumbles. ... Still needs to show better judgement, but has the power behind his throws to thread the ball in a crowd. ... His touch on his long ball has improved quite a bit, but he still needs to work on his underneath throws. ... Still has not fully grasped the mental aspect of calling his own game yet, and will need to have the plays called for him until he can prove that he can handle play-calling on his own. ... Does well in school (3.0 grade point average). [b]His first Wonderlic test score (14) was lower than you like from a player at the quarterback position, but he then scored a much-improved 28 at the Combine in February[/b]. ... Needs to work on some fundamentals, especially his feet in his pass set, but he has the quickness to get back from center. ... Made more sound decisions in 2004 than he did in the past, but he still must improve in reading coverages.[/quote]

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Is it fair to say it took Campbell four years of playing college ball to understand <a href='http://67.15.154.58/cmapp/zx-hclick.php?hid=2' target='_blank'>the</a> college game? I mean didn't he have four different offensive coordinators he had to learn from? It's not like he was ever given one solid system to learn under[/QUOTE]


I don't believe it's fair to say that because no one seems to want to cut Ramsey that kind of slack, Ramsey has had a college coach for his first 2 years in the NFL with a minimal amount of playing time over that span, because he was in and out of the lineup from the beatings he was taking every week, Ramsey has something like 22 games under his belt, that's a season and a half, while having to deal with coaches trying to find their way, all the while doing it in the NFL, not an inferiour collegiate level.

I also want to know since Campbell had 4 different coordinators and had each one for the same amount of time, and each one had a different system to learn, then why is it he figured out the last system and not the others? Could it be the talent around him was just overwhelming?

If we are to say coaching makes the QB then why is everyone so quick to blame Ramsey and not SS, and Gibbs, and if we are to say the QB makes the coach, then why did we draft Campbell?

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=offiss]I don't believe it's fair to say that because no one seems to want to cut Ramsey that kind of slack, Ramsey has had a college coach for his first 2 years in the NFL with a minimal amount of playing time over that span, because he was in and out of the lineup from the beatings he was taking every week, Ramsey has something like 22 games under his belt, that's a season and a half, while having to deal with coaches trying to find their way, all the while doing it in the NFL, not an inferiour collegiate level.

I also want to know since Campbell had 4 different coordinators and had each one for the same amount of time, and each one had a different system to learn, then why is it he figured out the last system and not the others? Could it be the talent around him was just overwhelming?

If we are to say coaching makes the QB then why is everyone so quick to blame Ramsey and not SS, and Gibbs, and if we are to say the QB makes the coach, then why did we draft Campbell?[/QUOTE]

Fair enough point about people not cutting Ramsey enough slack and I agree. He's been in different systems and has been in and out as the starter, I really don't think he's had an honest fair shot at being a NFL starter. Hopefully this year he'll get a full 16 starts and I think then he can be properly evaluated. It makes me chuckle when people say he's had a fair shot and has had enough starts to prove himself. He's started 23 games, a season and a half, and people think that's enough. :frusty:

As far as Campbell goes, I didn't see much of him in college so I don't know if he had a good senior season due to the talent around him, or perhaps it was due to his maturation as a player. Perhaps it's safe to say it was a combo of the two?

From most of the reports I've read on him, it sure sounds like he improved his game last year, from his accuracy to his decision making in the pocket.

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=offiss]I don't believe it's fair to say that because no one seems to want to cut Ramsey that kind of slack, Ramsey has had a college coach for his first 2 years in the NFL with a minimal amount of playing time over that span, because he was in and out of the lineup from the beatings he was taking every week, Ramsey has something like 22 games under his belt, that's a season and a half, while having to deal with coaches trying to find their way, all the while doing it in the NFL, not an inferiour collegiate level.

I also want to know since Campbell had 4 different coordinators and had each one for the same amount of time, and each one had a different system to learn, then why is it he figured out the last system and not the others? Could it be the talent around him was just overwhelming?

If we are to say coaching makes the QB then why is everyone so quick to blame Ramsey and not SS, and Gibbs, and if we are to say the QB makes the coach, then why did we draft Campbell?[/QUOTE]



paragraph 1- i totaly agree with you.

paragraph 2- i too would like to know the answer to that question. did campbell really struggle in the other systems or did he still play well but the team, overall, was worse ? did campbell play with, roughly, the same players in all those years ?

paragragh 3- i think the success of qb and the coach go hand in hand.

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Jermus22, what abilities do you think he has that would make him a Gibbs type QB? Brains are the biggest attribute for a Gibbs QB, then a strong arm, considering Campbells first wonderlik test he scored a 9, and he doesn't have elite type arm strength, then consider Ramsey as far as intelligence goes is bordering on genious level, and has one of the strongest arms in the NFL, which vastly exceeds Campbells, if Ramsey can't get it done under Gibbs then what would make you think Campbell could? Also consider it took Campbell 4 year's of playing in college to figure out the college game, and IMO excelled his last year because of superiour talent surrounding him, why should anyone believe he can remotly get it done on the NFL level? Especially next season?[/QUOTE]

What does the wonderlik test have to do with being a good QB in the NFL or for being a QB for Joe Gibbs?
NOTHING.
The test is a joke as a predictive tool for future NFL players.
Two rather undistinguished players from Harvard Pat McInally and Ryan Fitzpatrick (2005 7th round pick) are the only players to achieve a perfect 50.

But Donovan McNabb scored a 12 (on his second try), Dan Marino 14. Daunte Culpepper 15. Steve McNair 15, Michael Vick 20, Brett Farve 22. These scores are below average intelligence.
A statistical analysis by M. P. Mirable, "Intelligence and Football: Testing for Differentials in Collegiate Quarterback Passing Performance and NFL Compensation" found that the wonderlic test does not support the predictive power of quarterbacks. In other words this research discovered that a good score on the wonderlic test does not translate to anything, especally being a good QB in the NFL.
In fact more of the great QB's scored in the low range. Not a single hall of fame Qb or soon to be hall of fame QB score higher than 39 out of a possible 50.

Regarding Campbell, we will see what he has to offer. Nobody can predict what a rookie will do.
Who would have thought last year that Roethlisberger would outplay the #1 and #2 drafted players and 3rd year Patrick Ramsey?

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

Is the Wonderlik a timed test? I ask this because I think that I could score very well on the test. If you were to test me, and give me time to consider and answer the question, I would probably score high. But, if the test were timed, I wouldn't do as well.

Now, that said, in football there are three parts of the QB's play cycle.
The most important is the 4-5 seconds after the ball is snapped. Quick decision is important.

The second is the 5-10 secconds in the huddle. At this point the QB must take in everything he just saw, make judgments about what just happened, figure out how to fix or exploit things on the next play, and do all this while the coach is yelling in his ear about the next play. Here, the ability to focus is important.

The third is the 5 or so seconds at the line. Here he must read a defense and change the play if neccasary. This third part is where the wonderlik score might show up.

The problem is that the other two may really be hurt by a really smart guy overthinking the situation. Thats why sometimes a coach can simplify things and really help his players.

So, what kind of test is the wonderlik?

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

I don't know if it's timed per se. I think it is. I do know that they give it to the athletes after a full day of physical drills to test the mental sharpness after they are physically worn out.

Here's a sample [URL=http://espn.go.com/page2/s/closer/020228test.html]test[/URL]

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=offiss]I don't believe it's fair to say that because no one seems to want to cut Ramsey that kind of slack, Ramsey has had a college coach for his first 2 years in the NFL with a minimal amount of playing time over that span, because he was in and out of the lineup from the beatings he was taking every week, Ramsey has something like 22 games under his belt, that's a season and a half, while having to deal with coaches trying to find their way, all the while doing it in the NFL, not an inferiour collegiate level.

I also want to know since Campbell had 4 different coordinators and had each one for the same amount of time, and each one had a different system to learn, then why is it he figured out the last system and not the others? Could it be the talent around him was just overwhelming?

If we are to say coaching makes the QB then why is everyone so quick to blame Ramsey and not SS, and Gibbs, and if we are to say the QB makes the coach, then why did we draft Campbell?[/QUOTE]

Campbell's first two years in college he split time with Daniel Cobb and he didn't put up the worst numbers. He had the highest completion percentage ever for a freshman at Auburn, and his sophomore year he was 5-1.

Maybe it's just me, but I think it is possible that we have two capable QBs. I think right now Ramsey is more ready to play at the NFL level and I think he has what it takes to be a really good QB. But I'm just not ready to label Campbell a bust before he's even taken a snap in the NFL

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

Took the test. Granted I didn't do any push-ups ahead of time, but scored 13 out of 15 ( in the 5 minute window). Extrapolate out to 50... I would have scored a 43.

So, what that means is that(A) the test means jack or (B)I should be heading out to training camp. Since I have seen the size of the defensive linemen in the NFL rest assured I am going with optioin A.
I play hockey everyday with guys that would score worse on Wonderlik and still play circles around me and make better passes and decisions.

Campbell will be fine. It looks like the guy takes his job seriously. Made a real effort to improve before draft day.

I guess for the fun of it I'll pass this test along to those hockey fu(%ers!:cheers

P.S. I'd like to start a nasty rumor now saying the Cowboys have the lowest combined Wonderlik score in the NFL. (Bases on nothing but my love for the guys from Texas...)

patten on ramsey
 

hope he does
if not campbell will take his place

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

I heard Heath Shuler had a lower score than his jersey number.

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS] I think right now Ramsey is more ready to play at the NFL level and I think he has what it takes to be a really good QB. But I'm just not ready to label Campbell a bust before he's even taken a snap in the NFL[/QUOTE]

:biggthump I've been trying to say that, but Offiss doesn't see it that way.

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=jacobyfan]I heard Heath Shuler had a lower score than his jersey number.[/QUOTE]
[URL=http://www.unc.edu/~mirabile/Wonderlic.htm]http://www.unc.edu/~mirabile/Wonderlic.htm[/URL]

Heath Shuler scored a 16.

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

Ha! Jeff George got a 10.

Re: Patten on Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Davnpurt]Ha! Jeff George got a 10.[/QUOTE]

He must have bombed the section on leadership

:)