Ramsey and McCants
 

I posted this in another thread, but the similarities are hard to ignore.

But first, let's start with the differences.

Ramsey is a QB, which normally brings much more merit than a #2 or #3 wide receiver. Ramsey is a first round pick while McCants is a fifth round pick. Ramsey tried his hardest and McCants had some questionable practice habits That's basically where the differences end.

During their tenure together, Ramsey did not have the protection to get the ball to McCants effectively basically negating any progress the two could have made as a duo. Then Joe Gibbs steps in bringing his own ideas, his own beliefs on how a team should be run and instantly we have Patrick Ramsey and Darnerian McCants fighting for their respective professional lives.

Granted, work habits cannot be ignored, but neither can red zone statistics. McCants played at a decent enough level to be effective last year when he ACTUALLY got in the game. Ramsey played hard and still was not better than Brunell in preseason and there we have set the tone for the beginning of the 2004 season.

Fast forward to now, Ramsey gets benched after basically twenty minutes of action. I think what this comes down to is not the fact that Ramsey is getting benched, it's how Gibbs went about it.

McCants got benched first and then cut. Ramsey hasn't produced so well himself.

So I ask again, why are we so attached to Ramsey and we let McCants go with hardly an afterthought?

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

Kind of interesting you brought up McCants, especially considering how our red zone offense struggled on Sunday. He was a beast in the red zone when Spurrier was around, but perhaps it was just that system. I wish him the best, but I was disappointed by all I heard about his work ethic.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

well, mccants wasn't the best at his position on the team right now... i don't think ramsey is really much better than brunell, but just getting defenders to back off for portis helps...

in fact, mccants was #5 at his highest.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

Maybe because DMAC was a 7th round pick and Ramsey was a 1st round pick, who when he was selected we had all the intentions of starting him at the most important position on the field. I myself despise watching Ramsey play, too hot/cold for me, not enough consistency. DMAC I would've like to see more of though........Ramsey reminds me of a Frerrote....shouldn't be a starter but has dabbled a time or two. Ramsey is what I like to call.......bad. If he started all 16 games this year he would've thrown more picks than td's.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]
So I ask again, why are we so attached to Ramsey and we let McCants go with hardly an afterthought?[/QUOTE]

I was thinking this same question.

I am really upset that they never gave McCAnts a chance. I guaruntee you that if he played last year, we would have one at least 3 more games because he's the guy that can get us TDs in the end zone, and he was the only guy that could hold on to the ball.

I was really upset when he got cut and I still am. Although, I wonder if he was being too imature behind the scenes for the coach to accept so they cut him as a way of sending a message to the team.

I still trust Joe Gibbs, but I am upset that a player like McCants who could help us never got his oppurtunity.

So why do you all stick up for Ramsey and not for McCants, hmmmm??

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

There is no decision in football harder or more important than deciding when to throw in the towel on a QB drafted in round #1.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

Right, which basically brings me to the point that we all get a little emotionally attached to our first round picks.

A PERFECT EXAMPLE = Rod Gardner

Another person who is shockingly similar to Ramsey. 1st round pick, not panning out so well, but each one of us called for him to be given another year, myself included.

Once we get past the emotional attachment, it won't be so bad.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

celts32:

That decision to "toss in the towel on a QB taken in the first round" is made even harder by the fact that Danny Boy claims credit for "discovering" Ramsey at Tulane and making sure he was taken with the Skins' first pick. People don't like the decision to bench Ramesy; but on that level, what Gibbs is doing takes a huge set of onions. He's telling the omniscient Danny Boy that the QB he discovered and fawned over for several years just isn't quite good enough to get the job done here.

Anyone else want to bring that kind of news to Danny Boy when he controls your paycheck and benefits? If so, I hope you have the unemployment office on speed dial...

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

Very true. No one can ever call Gibbs a pansy over this.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]Right, which basically brings me to the point that we all get a little emotionally attached to our first round picks.

A PERFECT EXAMPLE = Rod Gardner

Another person who is shockingly similar to Ramsey. 1st round pick, not panning out so well, but each one of us called for him to be given another year, myself included.

Once we get past the emotional attachment, it won't be so bad.[/QUOTE]

I never liked rod or champ and didn't mind watching them go... I actually like springs better even though he's not as talented (at least he doesn't bobble punt returns and doesn't purposefully trip himself to not look as bad when he gets beat badly).

I WAS a bit disappointed we lost smoot, but I knew he wasn't really the physical type of corner GW wants (though he definately tried his hardest).

I didn't feel bad about losing AP cause i was attached, but i didn't like how $1mill got in the way and killed the deal...

maybe they just didn't get as much media exposure and that's why... I never really knew much about any of them off the field.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]Very true. No one can ever call Gibbs a pansy over this.[/QUOTE]

and he even threw in a firing just to prove they're really brass.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

Very true.

I know I won't appease everyone, I just wanted to kind of put things in perspective since tempers have run high recently.

This is all part of the healing process. :grouphug:

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon]celts32:

That decision to "toss in the towel on a QB taken in the first round" is made even harder by the fact that Danny Boy claims credit for "discovering" Ramsey at Tulane and making sure he was taken with the Skins' first pick. People don't like the decision to bench Ramesy; but on that level, what Gibbs is doing takes a huge set of onions. He's telling the omniscient Danny Boy that the QB he discovered and fawned over for several years just isn't quite good enough to get the job done here.

Anyone else want to bring that kind of news to Danny Boy when he controls your paycheck and benefits? If so, I hope you have the unemployment office on speed dial...[/QUOTE]

Great point. I didnt really see it as a clash at the top, but perhaps thats what it is. Fact is, Ramsey may still be a good qb in this league but that probably won't happen in dc. It may be a minor consolation, but I do recall that Danny Boy wanted Moss over Gardner so at least he got his wish on that regard.

McCants had to go, true he's a good red zone target and proved that with 6 tds in 2003, but he's the 4th wideout and he doesn't play special teams which is a huge no-no. No crying about him leaving.

Ramsey didn't get a fair shot, but given Brunell's age and injury history I'd say it is only a matter of time.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

Only Joe Gibbs would be able to get away with that kind of move. He's the only coach that Dan Snyder adores that much. He grew up as one of his biggest fans. He respects Gibbs enough to actually let him run the show, where as the other coaches he didn't.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

Totally agree with you Mephisskin on D'Mack. Everyone talks about him being so great in the red-zone as a receiver, but what I want to know is what is he going to do when we're not in the red-zone. I cannot see a roster spot for a player whose only going to see the field when we get in the red-zone. No ST "nothing" just catch passes when we get down deep, I don't think so, and that's why he's not here.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon]celts32:

That decision to "toss in the towel on a QB taken in the first round" is made even harder by the fact that Danny Boy claims credit for "discovering" Ramsey at Tulane and making sure he was taken with the Skins' first pick. People don't like the decision to bench Ramesy; but on that level, what Gibbs is doing takes a huge set of onions. He's telling the omniscient Danny Boy that the QB he discovered and fawned over for several years just isn't quite good enough to get the job done here.

Anyone else want to bring that kind of news to Danny Boy when he controls your paycheck and benefits? If so, I hope you have the unemployment office on speed dial...[/QUOTE]


agreed.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]Right, which basically brings me to the point that we all get a little emotionally attached to our first round picks.

A PERFECT EXAMPLE = Rod Gardner

Another person who is shockingly similar to Ramsey. 1st round pick, not panning out so well, but each one of us called for him to be given another year, myself included.

Once we get past the emotional attachment, it won't be so bad.[/QUOTE]

I used to have an emotional attachment to Ramsey, but at this point I am about ready to pass the beer nuts on him. For whatever reason he just has not progressed and Gibbs has seen enough...

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

From today's Washington Post,

[i]Yesterday, the only question Ramsey declined to answer concerned his turnover issues (two touchdowns and four interceptions) during preseason games. Ramsey was intercepted once Sunday by the Chicago Bears and, according to another offensive starter who requested anonymity, that interception -- on Ramsey's second pass of the game -- occurred when a receiver ran the wrong route, adding to Ramsey's frustration about the decision.

[/i]So Ramsey Bashers, and Brunell believers, what do you have to say now? I don't think a single person on this forum even entertained the possibility that the WR ran the wrong route and suprise the pass looks bad, when the WR is not there! I am glad the players are coming out, for now there is a record and no way in hell should Gibbs be given nine games of Brunell to ruin the season AGAIN! Someone, and most likely it will have to be Snyder is going to have to have to say something. This is why we need a GM, like said before Gibbs coach GOOD, Gibbs coach & GM BAD.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=celts32]I used to have an emotional attachment to Ramsey, but at this point I am about ready to pass the beer nuts on him. For whatever reason he just has not progressed and Gibbs has seen enough...[/QUOTE]

I wish more people would admit that emotion is what is holding Ramsey so dear to them.

I went back and watched most of the Bears game last night, and while Ramsey did look good at times, he also looked pretty bad at others. He fired several overthrows and just doesn't look very decisive at times.

That's pretty much been the book on him his entire career. He's inconsistent. He'll thrill you on one play and kill you the next. He's the kind of QB that drives Gibbs crazy.

I just don't see why there's such an uproar over this. As bad as Brunell was last year, Ramsey was only slightly better.

Ramsey seems like a good guy, and he's a very likable guy. I think we really wanted him to succeed, but right now Gibbs feels that a change would be beneficial to the team, so let's roll with that for now and see where it takes us. I really don't see what we have to lose.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

Right and for those who say, "Well Ramsey threw for 100+ yards." remember that many of those yards came on a 10-yard pattern that Moss TURNED into a 50+ yard gainer.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I wish more people would admit that emotion is what is holding Ramsey so dear to them.

I went back and watched most of the Bears game last night, and while Ramsey did look good at times, he also looked pretty bad at others. He fired several overthrows and just doesn't look very decisive at times.

That's pretty much been the book on him his entire career. He's inconsistent. He'll thrill you on one play and kill you the next. He's the kind of QB that drives Gibbs crazy.

I just don't see why there's such an uproar over this. As bad as Brunell was last year, Ramsey was only slightly better.

Ramsey seems like a good guy, and he's a very likable guy. I think we really wanted him to succeed, but right now Gibbs feels that a change would be beneficial to the team, so let's roll with that for now and see where it takes us. I really don't see what we have to lose.[/QUOTE]
I think you need to take your rational thinking and even-mindedness somewhere else!

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I wish more people would admit that emotion is what is holding Ramsey so dear to them.

I went back and watched most of the Bears game last night, and while Ramsey did look good at times, he also looked pretty bad at others. He fired several overthrows and just doesn't look very decisive at times.

That's pretty much been the book on him his entire career. He's inconsistent. He'll thrill you on one play and kill you the next. He's the kind of QB that drives Gibbs crazy.

I just don't see why there's such an uproar over this. As bad as Brunell was last year, Ramsey was only slightly better.

Ramsey seems like a good guy, and he's a very likable guy. I think we really wanted him to succeed, but right now Gibbs feels that a change would be beneficial to the team, so let's roll with that for now and see where it takes us. I really don't see what we have to lose.[/QUOTE]

if we could trade for Roethlisbeger right now, you think people would still be clamoring for Ramsey? Yes Ramsey gambles, but with Portis and our defense we had good chances to win.

Brunell had his chance to endear himself to us as fans all of last season. if he looked good, do you think any of us would be 'freaking out' as you say? emotional attachment is secondary. unless it applies to blind faith in Gibbs of course, that emotional attachment is allowed. go back and find some video of Brunell's passes last season against real defenses really trying to murder him.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

I'm really losing it here, what the hell is so great about Ramsey? I feel like I've been asking this question for days. And don't turn it around and say what's so great about Brunell. I'm simply asking, what is so great about Ramsey?

The uproar over a medicore QB being benched, a QB mind you that was booed regularly this preseason, is amazing to me... now all of a sudden he's a golden boy?

Again, he was the 5th worst QB last year, Brunell was 2nd worst, yet people are acting like the season is over because Ramsey has been benched.

I really don't get it.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

simply, Ramsey won more real games for us. its all about the wins, and if Brunell and Ramsey's roles were reversed last year, you can bet all this 'emotion' you say we have would be right out the window. if there was a better non-rookie QB on the roster, we'd all want him too. heck some of us want to see the rookie now.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I'm really losing it here, what the hell is so great about Ramsey? I feel like I've been asking this question for days. And don't turn it around and say what's so great about Brunell. I'm simply asking, what is so great about Ramsey?

The uproar over a medicore QB being benched, a QB mind you that was booed regularly this preseason, is amazing to me... now all of a sudden he's a golden boy?

Again, he was the 5th worst QB last year, Brunell was 2nd worst, yet people are acting like the season is over because Ramsey has been benched.

I really don't get it.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Instead of calling us that support the QB change-Brunnell supporters, how about calling us what we really are...Redskins supporters. The change has been made, deal with it...I don't think that those that feel the way I do are having this argument because we feel that Brunnell is the reincarnation of Joe Theismann but we just do not understand what all the complaining about Ramsey being benched is about. He is not that good of a QB, granted neither is Brunnell, but how many options do we really have here? None, really so we should believe in the guy that is put in the position to make the best decision out of his options, who happens to be Hall Of Famer and Former Super Bowl winning Coach of the Washington Redskins, Joe Gibbs. He has a lot more to base this change on then we do.

I personally like Ramsey, think he is a nice guy, kinda cute even in a boyish way but he cannot win us football games at this point....I know, I know--the question is "can Brunnell win us football games?" or maybe the statement will be made "he did not win us many football games, [b]LAST YEAR[/b]."

1.-Can Brunnell win us football games?
Only time will tell. I believe strongly that if he does not produce, Coach will make another adjustment. Maybe that will be Jason Campbell, maybe Ramsey...maybe he will flip a coin to make the call...who knows.

2.-He did not win us many football games, [b]LAST YEAR[/b]....
[b]THAT WAS LAST YEAR!!!!![/b]

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]simply, Ramsey won more real games for us. its all about the wins, and if Brunell and Ramsey's roles were reversed last year, you can bet all this 'emotion' you say we have would be right out the window. if there was a better non-rookie QB on the roster, we'd all want him too. heck some of us want to see the rookie now.[/QUOTE]

Brunell won 3 and Ramsey won 3.

By my count that's pretty even.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=ladyfan06]He is not that good of a QB, granted neither is Brunnell, but how many options do we really have here? None, really so we should believe in the guy that is put in the position to make the best decision out of his options, who happens to be Hall Of Famer and Former Super Bowl winning Coach of the Washington Redskins, Joe Gibbs. He has a lot more to base this change on then we do.

I personally like Ramsey, think he is a nice guy, kinda cute even in a boyish way but he cannot win us football games at this point....I know, I know--the question is "can Brunnell win us football games?" or maybe the statement will be made "he did not win us many football games, [b]LAST YEAR[/b]."[/QUOTE]

ladyfan, you dismiss last year so readily, but really throw out coach's superbowls from 15 years ago. i don't discount either, but if you're going to use the past, don't do it selectively.

we're Redskins supporters too. only reason most of us wanted to give Ramsey a shot is because he LOST less than Brunell and because we think a 26 year old can improve more than a 35 year old. it's not because of emotion, (and much less because he's cute) and if we had clearly better options at QB we'd all take that in a second.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]ladyfan, you dismiss last year so readily, but really throw out coach's superbowls from 15 years ago. i don't discount either, but if you're going to use the past, don't do it selectively.

we're Redskins supporters too. only reason most of us wanted to give Ramsey a shot is because he LOST less than Brunell and because we think a 26 year old can improve more than a 35 year old. it's not because of emotion, (and much less because he's cute) and if we had clearly better options at QB we'd all take that in a second.[/QUOTE]

Illdefined- I think you have a thing for me, no matter what I say or how I say it, you find a way to make it something it's not...no one ever said those of you that feel that Ramsey got a "raw deal" are not Redskin supporters as well but stop making those of us that stand behind the decision of the coach out to be the bad guys. At the end of the day, Brunnell is going to start, that's that and we have exhausted so many keystrokes bashing the coach, organization, Brunnell and anything else that pops in our heads. That is nothing is contradictory of what I would consider a true-Redskins fan.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Brunell won 3 and Ramsey won 3.

By my count that's pretty even.[/QUOTE]

right. well Ramsey lost less then.

just his presence on the field makes the safeties think twice about locking on Portis. the reason may be that they think they'll be able to pick him off, but either way he changes the character of the offense. it's good for our running game and that's our biggest strength.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=DirtBagZ]From today's Washington Post,

[i]Yesterday, the only question Ramsey declined to answer concerned his turnover issues (two touchdowns and four interceptions) during preseason games. Ramsey was intercepted once Sunday by the Chicago Bears and, according to another offensive starter who requested anonymity, that interception -- on Ramsey's second pass of the game -- occurred when a receiver ran the wrong route, adding to Ramsey's frustration about the decision.

[/i]So Ramsey Bashers, and Brunell believers, what do you have to say now? I don't think a single person on this forum even entertained the possibility that the WR ran the wrong route and suprise the pass looks bad, when the WR is not there! I am glad the players are coming out, for now there is a record and no way in hell should Gibbs be given nine games of Brunell to ruin the season AGAIN! Someone, and most likely it will have to be Snyder is going to have to have to say something. This is why we need a GM, like said before Gibbs coach GOOD, Gibbs coach & GM BAD.[/QUOTE]

You make it sound like it's Gibbs plan to ruin the season. Gibbs has won at everything he ever did yet this season he decided he wanted to sabotage himself. He obviously thinks Brunell gives him a better chance to win.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=ladyfan06]Illdefined- I think you have a thing for me, no matter what I say or how I say it, you find a way to make it something it's not...no one ever said those of you that feel that Ramsey got a "raw deal" are not Redskin supporters as well but stop making those of us that stand behind the decision of the coach out to be the bad guys. At the end of the day, Brunnell is going to start, that's that and we have exhausted so many keystrokes bashing the coach, organization, Brunnell and anything else that pops in our heads. That is nothing is contradictory of what I would consider a true-Redskins fan.[/QUOTE]

absolutely, no one's bad here (except the cow-fans, and even then, they're pretty cool for cow-fans) that's exactly the point, we're all about the wins. we just disagree on how to get em.

no its nothing personal with you, it's just when you replied to me saying you were a Redskins supporter, it implied i wasn't. if you didn't mean to imply it, i'm sorry, others certainly have and it couldn't be the furthest thing from the truth. call it tough love, but on gameday we all bleed burgundy.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]absolutely, no one's bad here (except the cow-fans, and even then, they're pretty cool for cow-fans) that's exactly the point, we're all about the wins. we just disagree on how to get em.

no its nothing personal with you, it's just when you replied to me saying you were a Redskins supporter, it implied i wasn't. if you didn't mean to imply it, i'm sorry, others certainly have and it couldn't be the furthest thing from the truth. call it tough love, but on gameday we all bleed burgundy.[/QUOTE]

AGREED...unless of course on game day if I bash my hubby over the head (a die-hard Cowboys fan) he may bleed blue....LOL!!

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]right. well Ramsey lost less then.[/QUOTE]

You're kidding me right?

You tried to make the point that Ramsey won more games and wins are what matters... then all you can come back with is well he lost less?

That's probably one of the weakest statements I've ever seen on this board.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

I don't think I have ever looked more foward to a game than this Monday's. It gives me hope that the one track mind of this board lately will change. So tired of this argument.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

No I think the point being made is that Gibbs is hoping that Brunell is the QB he was expecting. The thing that annoys me the most is that Gibbs has already made his mind about Ramsey. Ramsey seemed in command and made some key 3rd down conversions. For all Gibbs talk about core players and all, he seems to be quite good at turning player away from this organization. Smoot and Pierce are gone and now so will Ramsey



[QUOTE=celts32]You make it sound like it's Gibbs plan to ruin the season. Gibbs has won at everything he ever did yet this season he decided he wanted to sabotage himself. He obviously thinks Brunell gives him a better chance to win.[/QUOTE]

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]You're kidding me right?

You tried to make the point that Ramsey won more games and wins are what matters... then all you can come back with is well he lost less?

That's probably one of the weakest statements I've ever seen on this board.[/QUOTE]

like you said before, we have two sucky QBs, and that's what it comes to. everyone has claimed Brunell is the best QB to "not lose". i'm pointing out thats not the case.

i see a lot of arguments basing preseason accomplishments over regular season games under fire on the board, there are weak arguments all around.

lesser of two evils, who sucks less, unfortunately in our position, it all applies.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

I think we're all talking too much doom 'n' gloom. Both Ramsey AND Brunell passed very well. The only difference is Ramsey threw a pick. Not saying I would prefer one over the other but there's far too much negativity on here when you look at just how well our offense played.

Brown is really the person who caused the score to be so close. He handed them a gift of a TD. The PI against Cooley was COMPLETE bullshit. So assuming we SHOULD have scored with Cooley the score should have been something like 16-0. Who's to say if Brown didn't fumble we wouldn't have driven right down the field and scored? In the second half we basically moved the ball at will.

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=ladyfan06]Illdefined- I think you have a thing for me[/QUOTE]

How could he not? A fan of the Redskins [I]and[/I] Family Guy! Have Mercy (shameless Full House plug)

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]How could he not? A fan of the Redskins [i]and[/i] Family Guy! Have Mercy (shameless Full House plug)[/QUOTE]

This is true! Seems obvious he would.....LOL!

Re: Ramsey and McCants
 

[QUOTE=ladyfan06][QUOTE=TAFKAS]How could he not? A fan of the Redskins [i]and[/i] Family Guy! Have Mercy (shameless Full House plug)[/QUOTE

This is true! Seems obvious he would.....LOL![/QUOTE]

honestly i would, but she's married to a cow-fan of all people, is there a bigger dealbreaker??