ExtremeSkins Fan View
 

Check out this article:

[url]http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=10335[/url]

Outstanding!

Re: ExtremeSkins Fan View
 

Great find, great article.

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Good read!!! All we can do is trust Gibbs and cheer our heads off at every home game regardless of who our QB is!!!

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This was an excellent article....not a darn thing wrong with it...

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I understand the article, but it has a huge flaw. You have to understand why fans are disgusted. Its not that everyone that's pulling for ramsey is an idiot or ignorant of facts and stats, thats total bullshit. We've all been redskins fans for a while and seen this exact thing happen so many times I couldn't tell you all the starting QB's we've had in the last 15 years. Having said that I can tell you how many we've had that were successful with us. None. Even though some have had success elsewhere, and some are real estate agents and bluegrass/gospel singers. None have had success here. If Mark Brunell can pull it off, I'll eat my hat, but until then, I'm one of the guys who has a knot in my stomach.

This isn't deja vu.

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[QUOTE=canthetuna]I understand the article, but it has a huge flaw. You have to understand why fans are disgusted. Its not that everyone that's pulling for ramsey is an idiot or ignorant of facts and stats, thats total bullshit. We've all been redskins fans for a while and seen this exact thing happen so many times I couldn't tell you all the starting QB's we've had in the last 15 years. Having said that I can tell you how many we've had that were successful with us. None. Even though some have had success elsewhere, and some are real estate agents and bluegrass/gospel singers. None have had success here. If Mark Brunell can pull it off, I'll eat my hat, but until then, I'm one of the guys who has a knot in my stomach.

This isn't deja vu.[/QUOTE]


Personally, I think it's a great article that really sums everything up in a nut shell. I think his article leaned more toward those "fans" who insist Gibbs doesn't know what he's doing. I suppose that's because they have only been able to witness other 'Skins coachs who didn't know how to win championship or even make the playoffs. If Jimmy Johnson or Bill Walsh had been hired other than Joe Gibbs, I would have had the same faith in them as well for similar reasons.

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I really agree with the author when he said Gibbs gave PR the Starting job to instill "Swagger" in PR.

It never developed.

He still looked as trepidatious as a teenage boy encountering his first bra strap!

I think many QB's who left and were successful elsewhere weren't given enough time.

For Pete's sake, isn't four years enough?

All I know, is that sitting in my seats on Sunday, A whole lot of people cheered when Brunell went in.

J

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[QUOTE=canthetuna]I understand the article, but it has a huge flaw. You have to understand why fans are disgusted. Its not that everyone that's pulling for ramsey is an idiot or ignorant of facts and stats, thats total bullshit. We've all been redskins fans for a while and seen this exact thing happen so many times I couldn't tell you all the starting QB's we've had in the last 15 years. Having said that I can tell you how many we've had that were successful with us. None. Even though some have had success elsewhere, and some are real estate agents and bluegrass/gospel singers. None have had success here. If Mark Brunell can pull it off, I'll eat my hat, but until then, I'm one of the guys who has a knot in my stomach.

This isn't deja vu.[/QUOTE]

Do you think If JG was around during those 15 years we would have had issues at the QB position? Based on his track record it is safe to say no.

So, now that he is here, why are you worried? He is just 15 years late, thats all, sit back, give the man time, and let him do his thing.

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How about this, what happened last year with Brunell was last year. The guy is a much smarter qb than Ramsey is now. I always thought that Brunell was like Favre but left handed. I don't want to lose this game 31-28 and have people say that "well atleast he scored points." Just WIN!!!!!!! I can't take this not making the playoffs stuff. What we as fans need to do is rally around our qb and our TEAM and will them to victory. I know a little faith can't hurt either. I think that coach Gibbs is better judge of talent then all of us. Hell, he has forgotten more football then all of us. And wouldn't this be a nice little ruse that that coach Gibbs is using to try to have dallas think that our qb and offense is so much turmoil. Just give Brunell a second chance to make us believe that he is the man. Just WIN DAMN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

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even with dismissing last year, that doesn't mean it never happened. Definately agree on the just win part though ;)

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Also, another thing I noticed when I viewed the tape of Bears game was when Cooley caught that pass supposedly just short of a touchdown. Well, when he caught it his feet were in the endzone but his momentum took him out. Again his feet were in when he caught the ball but, does the ball have to cross the goal line too? It looks like T.D. to me.

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[QUOTE=4mrusmc]Also, another thing I noticed when I viewed the tape of Bears game was when Cooley caught that pass supposedly just short of a touchdown. Well, when he caught it his feet were in the endzone but his momentum took him out. Again his feet were in when he caught the ball but, does the ball have to cross the goal line too? It looks like T.D. to me.[/QUOTE]

the ball has to break the plane... cooley was in the end zone waiting, but brunell underthrew him (pretty badly for such a short throw) and so he had to run back a bit to grab it.

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the fan articles still seem too long and rambling, but the content in this one is a couple steps up from the last ones at least.

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I think Brunell has good smarts, ability, and mobility but, I just wish he had more heart maybe we will see it on Monday night.

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I want to see the fans and team rally around Brunnel...

But I really want to see our defense take over the game and hand Dallas thier butts!

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Hey, Guy you must be a Ramsey fan? The one thing I will say about him is that he looked like he had that heart and determination. Maybe we can get descent trade value for him because as soon as Cambell was selected Ramsey was a short-timer.

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Does anybody know how to get old Redskins super bowl videos?

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[QUOTE=4mrusmc]Hey, Guy you must be a Ramsey fan? The one thing I will say about him is that he looked like he had that heart and determination. Maybe we can get descent trade value for him because as soon as Cambell was selected Ramsey was a short-timer.[/QUOTE]

not really, go look at the video, cooley sat in the endzone open for like 2 seconds before the ball was thrown 2 yards short of him and 2-3 yards to the right of him. being that far off on a 3 yard pass is what i'd call a bad throw.

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I think the articles bullshit,the int was the only thing ramsey did wrong,the fumbles werent his fault

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I think whomever wrote that article is trying to convince someone he actually knows what he's talking about.

I can't believe he's comparing Antonio Brown, to Ramsey, as if there was any comparison from a QB to a kick returner, and Gibbs promised him nothing more than a tryout thats it. This comparison is absolutly ridiculous. Listen up artee, and answer me one question, when is the last time you heard a team grooming a kick returner for 2 years? That's right never! Why you ask? There is a big difference between the QB position and kick returner, you see at kick returner you either have it, or you don't, it's pretty simple. But at QB you need time to grow at the position, a big part of a QB's success is the continuity he developes with the players around him, he needs to understand the offense and how the coach want's him to run it, we still have recievers running the wrong routes and people expect Ramsey to move the ball like Unitas. And let's get something else straight as well Gibbs played Antonio Brown the whole game, amazing isn't it, our return man gets a whole game to prove himself Ramsey gets 19 minutes great comparison. And please if your going to say he fumbled lets just count the ones we actually lose's, the guy is getting creamed hanging in the pocket trying to make a play while the defenses are sitting on our simplistic pass routes, don't you think the O-line bares the brunt of the responsibility for that fumble? Do you think the ref's also share in it being they couldn't make a call there? Yet they have no problem making a call when it's not there, ALA Ramseys TD capping drive to Cooley, which if the ref actually had any idea this controversy is null and void!

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offiss, you should e-mail him, as i doubt he reads this site... ;)

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[QUOTE=That Guy]offiss, you should e-mail him, as i doubt he reads this site... ;)[/QUOTE]


lol, his lose! :biggthump

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[QUOTE=htownskinfan]I think the articles bullshit,the int was the only thing ramsey did wrong,the fumbles werent his fault[/QUOTE]

Regardless of fault, they happened.

I'm sure we could pick through Brunell's turnovers last year and find a few that "weren't his fault", but what's the point?

A turnover is a turnover.

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What this guy conveniently leaves out of this article is that at least half of us wouldn't question Gibbs' decision if (1) He wasn't the one who went out and overpaid for a washed up Brunell and (2) He hadn't shown patience with Brunnell for 9 freaking games last year and yanked Ramsey in the first freaking quarter! Gibbs historically stuck with his qbs, even through dismal times. So what's the difference this time? The difference is Gibbs is responsible for bringing the ancient one here, so Gibbs is still trying to save face. Remember when Gibbs told us last year that we hadn't seen the last of Brunnell? How could he say that after witnessing such horrible QB play? He said it, cause he was trying to save face after what 99% of all football fans criticized him for overpaying for Brunnell in the first place.

Nevertheless, you can't pick your family, and you can't pick your starting QB, so on Monday night Im rooting for the old fart while downing multiple Buds to ease the pain. Please Mr. Brunnell, please don't return to your sucky play this week, hold off for just a couple of weeks, PLEASE! Go Skins. 100th post, god I waste a huge part of my day on here.....

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[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]Remember when Gibbs told us last year that we hadn't seen the last of Brunnell? How could he say that after witnessing such horrible QB play? He said it, cause he was trying to save face after what 99% of all football fans criticized him for overpaying for Brunnell in the first place.[/QUOTE]

He said that because he knew Brunell was playing hurt and playing in an outdated offensive scheme.

Since then the offensive line has been vastly improved, we have speed at WR, he's healthy, the offensive schemes have been tweaked, the running game is improved, and most of the guys including Brunell are entering their 2nd year in the system and have a better understanding of what is expected of them.

When you put all these factors together, I don't think it's too crazy to think that Brunell can be a much better QB THIS year.

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[QUOTE=offiss]I think whomever wrote that article is trying to convince someone he actually knows what he's talking about.

I can't believe he's comparing Antonio Brown, to Ramsey, as if there was any comparison from a QB to a kick returner, and Gibbs promised him nothing more than a tryout thats it. This comparison is absolutly ridiculous. Listen up artee, and answer me one question, when is the last time you heard a team grooming a kick returner for 2 years? That's right never! Why you ask? There is a big difference between the QB position and kick returner, you see at kick returner you either have it, or you don't, it's pretty simple. But at QB you need time to grow at the position, a big part of a QB's success is the continuity he developes with the players around him, he needs to understand the offense and how the coach want's him to run it, we still have recievers running the wrong routes and people expect Ramsey to move the ball like Unitas. And let's get something else straight as well Gibbs played Antonio Brown the whole game, amazing isn't it, our return man gets a whole game to prove himself Ramsey gets 19 minutes great comparison. And please if your going to say he fumbled lets just count the ones we actually lose's, the guy is getting creamed hanging in the pocket trying to make a play while the defenses are sitting on our simplistic pass routes, don't you think the O-line bares the brunt of the responsibility for that fumble? Do you think the ref's also share in it being they couldn't make a call there? Yet they have no problem making a call when it's not there, ALA Ramseys TD capping drive to Cooley, which if the ref actually had any idea this controversy is null and void![/QUOTE]

Offiss,

You bring up some very good points. I think, however, that the author wasn't necessarily(sp) trying to directly compare Ramsey v. Brown. I think in context of Gibbs' decision making and the thought behind the dismissal of Brown and the benching of Ramsey, he was basically saying for us to win there are certain mistakes that have to be eliminated. Whether you are kick returner, starting QB, or perhaps an offensive lineman - Gibbs will make changes. And he'll be darned if he's gonna wait five, six or even nine games before he does it. I think this is what the author implied when comparing the two. I don't think he was comparing position v. position and how one impacts the game over the other. If that were the case, we're talking apples and oranges.

By the way, I do disagree with you on one point. Sir, Ramsey has most definitely had more than 19 minutes to prove himself. I think all of us would agree with that. And I know he has had several offensive coord. and head coaches and he's needed a chance to develop and so forth. But I think if we are going to make that argument for Ramsey shouldn't we make it for all the other Redskins that have had their development stunted by a system in constant flux?

Obviously this is just my point of view when I read the article. I might add, I thought the article was right on the money too!

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You can absoultly compare Brown and Ramsey. You can't have drastically different standards for players on the team. One guy turned the ball over and cost us points as did the other. Whether one is a 4th year QB or a 2nd year kick returner doesn't matter. The message has been sent. DON'T TURN THE BALL OVER! If you say that and then ignore it in certain cases it can be a big morale killer. A good example is Nemo. Nemo looked like a beast in pre-season. He was pretty much heralded all over this board. We thought he'd make the team and play. Everyone was worried he'd take Rocks spot because he outplayed him a bit. But he couldn't control the ball much in preseason either and in the end he made the team but Nemo was inactive in game one. Message: DON'T TURN THE BALL OVER! Even in preseason.

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[QUOTE=htownskinfan]I think the articles bullshit,the int was the only thing ramsey did wrong,the fumbles werent his fault[/QUOTE]

I totally and respectfully disagree. On the clothesline hit by Briggs, I can see a lot of QBs fumbling there, Brunell might have fumbled just the same, but that does not excuse the QB from the responsibility of holding onto the football when sacked. Jansen needed to block Briggs there, but the QB has to hold onto the ball.

The other one was ENTIRELY Ramsey's fault, he's just lucky Jansen recovered it. He waited and waited and waited in the pocket. He double clutched like 2 or 3 times.

That's the thing about passer ratings. They don't factor in QB fumbles. Ramsey is at risk for so many of those because he holds onto the ball for so long. I'd take a QB rating of 70 from Mark Brunell over a QB rating of 75 from Ramsey, because Brunell's not nearly as likely to fumble. He can actually avoid a rush and knows when to get rid of the ball.

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[QUOTE=12thMan]Offiss,

You bring up some very good points. I think, however, that the author wasn't necessarily(sp) trying to directly compare Ramsey v. Brown. I think in context of Gibbs' decision making and the thought behind the dismissal of Brown and the benching of Ramsey, he was basically saying for us to win there are certain mistakes that have to be eliminated. Whether you are kick returner, starting QB, or perhaps an offensive lineman - Gibbs will make changes. And he'll be darned if he's gonna wait five, six or even nine games before he does it. I think this is what the author implied when comparing the two. I don't think he was comparing position v. position and how one impacts the game over the other. If that were the case, we're talking apples and oranges.

By the way, I do disagree with you on one point. Sir, Ramsey has most definitely had more than 19 minutes to prove himself. I think all of us would agree with that. And I know he has had several offensive coord. and head coaches and he's needed a chance to develop and so forth. But I think if we are going to make that argument for Ramsey shouldn't we make it for all the other Redskins that have had their development stunted by a system in constant flux?

Obviously this is just my point of view when I read the article. I might add, I thought the article was right on the money too![/QUOTE]

Your really contradicting yourself, you say Gibbs is going to make changes and he'll be darned if he waits 5,6,or 9, games, who are you trying to kid here, he waited not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7, not 8, but 9 games before he replaced Brunell last season, who played the position as bad as I have ever seen.

The rest of your statements are all over the place I really don't know were to begin but I will try.

You stated that our offense is in constant flux and that all players should be afforded the same opportunity as Ramsey? Then you say we all can agree on the fact that he's had more than 19 minutes to prove himself, was he playing a pickup game in the parking lot I missed? What is it about the comparison between a KR and a QB you don't understand? Why is the QB the highest paid player in the league, and kick returners on the bottom of the food chain? Could it be becuase it's the most difficult position on the field and takes the longest to learn, it's taken some of the great QB's 3 years to develope in the same system playing every game, not 6 or 7 quarters in the pre-season.

Give me your reasons for say a player like Antonio Brown and how you believe his growth is stunted on special's. Because I know I can give you a 100 reason's and example after example, on why a QB need's time to develope, SIR!

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[QUOTE=FRPLG]You can absoultly compare Brown and Ramsey. You can't have drastically different standards for players on the team. One guy turned the ball over and cost us points as did the other. Whether one is a 4th year QB or a 2nd year kick returner doesn't matter. The message has been sent. DON'T TURN THE BALL OVER! If you say that and then ignore it in certain cases it can be a big morale killer. A good example is Nemo. Nemo looked like a beast in pre-season. He was pretty much heralded all over this board. We thought he'd make the team and play. Everyone was worried he'd take Rocks spot because he outplayed him a bit. But he couldn't control the ball much in preseason either and in the end he made the team but Nemo was inactive in game one. Message: DON'T TURN THE BALL OVER! Even in preseason.[/QUOTE]

Your right, you know another good example is Brunells 9 turnovers in 9 games and giving up 2 defensive TD's, Gibbs really showed him! Double standard? NOOOOOOOOOO, not Gibbs.

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[QUOTE=offiss]Your really contradicting yourself, you say Gibbs is going to make changes and he'll be darned if he waits 5,6,or 9, games, who are you trying to kid here, he waited not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7, not 8, but 9 games before he replaced Brunell last season, who played the position as bad as I have ever seen.

The rest of your statements are all over the place I really don't know were to begin but I will try.

You stated that our offense is in constant flux and that all players should be afforded the same opportunity as Ramsey? Then you say we all can agree on the fact that he's had more than 19 minutes to prove himself, was he playing a pickup game in the parking lot I missed? What is it about the comparison between a KR and a QB you don't understand? Why is the QB the highest paid player in the league, and kick returners on the bottom of the food chain? Could it be becuase it's the most difficult position on the field and takes the longest to learn, it's taken some of the great QB's 3 years to develope in the same system playing every game, not 6 or 7 quarters in the pre-season.

Give me your reasons for say a player like Antonio Brown and how you believe his growth is stunted on special's. Because I know I can give you a 100 reason's and example after example, on why a QB need's time to develope, SIR![/QUOTE]

I won't defend my response point for point - take from it what you may. That's fine.

When I said Ramsey had more than 19 minutes to prove himself, obviously I was talking about more than just those 19 minutes. Ramsey has been with the Redskins for a few seasons now, entering his second with coach Gibbs. I think that certainly counts for more than 19 minutes of play.

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[quote]One guy turned the ball over and cost us points as did the other.[/quote]
The score was 9-7. The Bears got a TD off Browns fumble. They made the extra point. TD + Extra Point = 7 points. I fail to see how Ramsey gave them any points.

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[QUOTE=12thMan]I won't defend my response point for point - take from it what you may. That's fine.

When I said Ramsey had more than 19 minutes to prove himself, obviously I was talking about more than just those 19 minutes. Ramsey has been with the Redskins for a few seasons now, entering his second with coach Gibbs. I think that certainly counts for more than 19 minutes of play.[/QUOTE]



And the only other regular season games he played in under Gibbs were last season. Last year, his winning percentage in games he started was better than Brunell's. Ramsey 3-4 (43%), Brunell 3-6 (33%).

In the final analysis, winning games is the ONLY thing that really matters.

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[QUOTE=FRPLG]You can absoultly compare Brown and Ramsey. You can't have drastically different standards for players on the team. One guy turned the ball over and cost us points as did the other. Whether one is a 4th year QB or a 2nd year kick returner doesn't matter. The message has been sent. DON'T TURN THE BALL OVER! If you say that and then ignore it in certain cases it can be a big morale killer. A good example is Nemo. Nemo looked like a beast in pre-season. He was pretty much heralded all over this board. We thought he'd make the team and play. Everyone was worried he'd take Rocks spot because he outplayed him a bit. But he couldn't control the ball much in preseason either and in the end he made the team but Nemo was inactive in game one. Message: DON'T TURN THE BALL OVER! Even in preseason.[/QUOTE]

every coach in the league has different rules for different players... LT could smoke crack and parcells wouldn't care, other rookies would be off the team for sleeping in a meeting.

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[QUOTE=Daseal]The score was 9-7. The Bears got a TD off Browns fumble. They made the extra point. TD + Extra Point = 7 points. I fail to see how Ramsey gave them any points.[/QUOTE]
Ramsey's last fumble cost us the chance to at least kick a fieldgoal therefore most likely denying us points.

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[QUOTE=That Guy]every coach in the league has different rules for different players... LT could smoke crack and parcells wouldn't care, other rookies would be off the team for sleeping in a meeting.[/QUOTE]
So that makes it right? Maybe Joe doesn't look at it that way.

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[QUOTE=FRPLG]So that makes it right? Maybe Joe doesn't look at it that way.[/QUOTE]

Oh, Joe looks at it that way alright. John Riggins was a BIG partier, Joe accepted it even though he didn't like it. Sean Taylor runs around with criminals and has pending felony charges, but beleive me, Joe ain't cuttin Mr. Taylor. It just depends on who you are, different rules for different people. Joe likes Brunnell, a veteran, whom he paid big bucks to, so Brunnell plays by a different set of rules than Ramsey does. If you don't believe it, wait until Brunnell has 2 turnovers in one game, I bet he stays in the game and isn't yanked.

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I think the point being missed is this:

Ramsey had 3 turnovers in 3 possesions and hasn't looked any better, this presason or any of the last 3 years, than his first snap in the NFL.

Like several others on this forum, I like Ramsey and want it to work out for him, but I tell my employees something all the time: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity, not loyalty. Nothing Ramsey has done with this team, in the length of his career here, has pointed to him doing anything different than being sub-par and turning the ball over.

I hope everything works out, but I am not going to thrash Gibbs over the decision.

I think it's ironic that we were calling for Mark Brunell to be benched in week 2 last season because of his poor play in week 1 against the Bucs, even with the win. Now Gibbs makes the tough call and we're calling for his (Gibbs) head.

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[QUOTE=kingerock]I think the point being missed is this:

Ramsey had 3 turnovers in 3 possesions and hasn't looked any better, this presason or any of the last 3 years, than his first snap in the NFL.

Like several others on this forum, I like Ramsey and want it to work out for him, but I tell my employees something all the time: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity, not loyalty. Nothing Ramsey has done with this team, in the length of his career here, has pointed to him doing anything different than being sub-par and turning the ball over.

I hope everything works out, but I am not going to thrash Gibbs over the decision.

I think it's ironic that we were calling for Mark Brunell to be benched in week 2 last season because of his poor play in week 1 against the Bucs, even with the win. Now Gibbs makes the tough call and we're calling for his (Gibbs) head.[/QUOTE].


Here's how it breaks down. I don't like the decision, because last year Ramsey lead our team to a few wins and some great games against the best teams in the leage, even with the outdated offensive schemes and players that brunell got killed with. Fuck the first half of the first game of this year. Mark Brunell has done nothing outside of the preseason to earn any merit from anyone on the Redskins. Hell I could go out there and just not turn the ball over. I could throw it out of bounds and at the ground in front of my feet and finish the game with not TO's but no offense either.

I think this article is BS because it implies that if you don't agree with the decision being made, or even question it, then you are ignorant of facts... but then it gives no real facts. This asshole got bought out by the skins and is spreading propaganda to sway public opinion. Do you think they would've posted an article asking if JG had lost his freaking mind on Redskins.com?

I'm not saying that's how I feel, but don't go on my teams website and act like you know some shit by a feeble attempt at alienation to those who oppose a particular decision.

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btw...art of recieving....






thats the second coolest name on the warpath lol