D-Line help without trading down
 

I wonder how much cap room we are going to have, once whoever gets cut, to be able to pick up players after April 14th and June 1st?

A player that ive kept my sight on is Ogunleye. Hes going to be seeking trade offers after April 14th. He wants a big pay check but that never bothers me with Snyder, Snyder will find a way to make him count for nothing for three years then rework his deal. The Dolphins are waiting to see if they can get a first and third for him but no one will do that. Any thoughts on him?

The other main player ive been watching is Tony Brackens. Im not sure how much money he wants, I think hes just tired of teh Jaguars FO. Adding him to our D-Line might be enough to get the type of pressure we are looking for. C.Griffen is an amazing run stuffer but doesnt see the QB much, mabye with another big guy next to him they can ge the pressure together.

I really want to draft Sean Taylor so ive been tryign to see what D-line help will be available without drafting one by trading down. Let me know what you think.

We should pick up DT gilbert brown. he was cut by the packers, and is a force as a run stopper. hes huge, tough (he played through what should have been a season ending injury in the preseason), and should come cheap. that would help solve a moajor problem area in the middle. Chad Eaton is also available...thres still solid talent out there

Thats why I dont think we should trade down. I think we should get vetern dline help and draft the elite player, taylor.

Nobody else thinks we should get d-line help through freeagency instead of the draft?

I'M WITH YOU ON THAT ONE SKINSnCANES.DRAFT THE BEST AND SUPPLEMENT WITH FREE AGENCY.OUR 5TH ROUNDER COULD TURN OUT TO BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR 1ST.

we'll see. I hope Cerrato did a better job of scouting this year and we can get a gem in the later rounds.

I like the idea of either brown or brackens (maybe both) and drafting Taylor. Anyone know of any other decent quality d-lineman who may get cut June 1st?

There are going to be tons of rumors about what the Skins might do, and knowing the Skins anythign is possible. But dont rule out us just drafting at five and picking up free agents. Everyone says Snyder will do crazy things, but his file dictates that he wont do crazy things in the draft and he will go after more vets, which is Gibbs way of doing things as well.

Gilbert Brown may have reached the end of the line. He did not play well last year and then he got hurt and basically never got back to the mediocre level he had established in the first part of the season. If I were to sign him, there would be no signing bonus that I would likely have to eat.

Chad Eaton can still play. I suspect he will be seeking some up front cash in his deal.

Tony Brackens is an interesting case. Some people think he is a wonderful player with a non-stop motor and top-shelf physical skills. Other people see him as a "me-first pain-in-the-ass". I have never met Mr. Brackens so I can't tell you which assessment is closer to the correct one.

There are good free agents out there waiting to be signed but none of them will want to come for league minimum so there will need to be some cap room adjustments to get them.

Ogunleye is an awesome DE, but he won't be cut by the Phins anytime soon. I thought earlier the Skins would go after him, but the price tag since he is a restricted FA is too much. If the Phins drop the price, say a 1st rounder next year, it would clearly give us a guy who can provide 15+ sacks year in/out...

He got a lot of his sacks because of who was lined up on the other side, in Jason Taylor. But he was still productive and should be able to perform. He would be a big upgrade on our dline no matter what, and if anything would help our lbs get more pressure.

Ogunleye would be great because then we could move P.Daniels to DT. I still think we should draft Taylor, because there is no DT in the draft that really seems to be an impact player. Gilbert Brown could come cheap and just having him in the middle is enough. He's huge and still has a couple of years under his belt as long as he stays healthy.

Bottom line is, we can't pass up on a guy like Taylor in the draft.

Yea I agree. We just need a solid dline that will hold its own and create some pressure. If we have big guys that stop the run then they are forced to pass with Taylor learking around, and id be happy with that scenerio.

Can we trade Dave Fiore for picks? I know he doesn't have that much value since he was injured all season, but he is a proven lineman.

I think we can pick up a decent DT in the second or third round, that's if we trade someone for a pick.

Dave wouldnt net us much, he hasnt played in two years. When we picked him up he was coming off an injury. BUT I wouldnt mind getting rid of him becuase he isnt someone we've had for years that goes against us trying to build a team.

I still say trade down for Tommie Harris. He may not have the big numbers last season, but he is the next great DT. I said it here 1st. Trade down and get a 3rd or 4th round pick in the deal. Bowen and Ohalete can handle the middle, especially if we can put pressure on the QB. That, to me, has to be our #1 priority in the draft, getting some help up front. Tommie Harris is starting to become the 1st round 'gem' since he's getting no love from most of the mock drafters. I mean a big d-tackle that runs a 4.78 - 40!!!

Id rather have Vince Wilfork. V.Wilfork gets double teamed and uses on of those linemen to throw them into the QB.

Either way, we'd be stupid to not take Winslow or Taylor.

[QUOTE=kingerock]I still say trade down for Tommie Harris. He may not have the big numbers last season, but he is the next great DT. I said it here 1st. Trade down and get a 3rd or 4th round pick in the deal. Bowen and Ohalete can handle the middle, especially if we can put pressure on the QB. That, to me, has to be our #1 priority in the draft, getting some help up front. Tommie Harris is starting to become the 1st round 'gem' since he's getting no love from most of the mock drafters. I mean a big d-tackle that runs a 4.78 - 40!!![/QUOTE]

If you look at his physical ability you could say he was the second coming of reggie white, but that's where it end's, show me the big time guard or tackle he dominated, I don't say that to be funny, I really haven't followed the guy like yourself and I want to know what I may have missed.

Fiore is contemplating retirement, so I don't think he's going to worth much at all.

Hopefully Dockery under Bugel will mature enough to be able to not give up so many big plays this year. Whoever gets Vernon Carey out of Miami is going ot get a hell of a guard in end of the first round. If for some reason we traded down and got later picks he would be a great pickup.

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES]we'll see. I hope Cerrato did a better job of scouting this year and we can get a gem in the later rounds.[/QUOTE]


And your hope that this occurred is based on what? His excellent late round record from his time in SF? No - Cerrato can track numbers on current pro players and seems to be able to tell which college star will translate to the NFL (Samuels, Arrington, Bailey, Gardner, Ramsey) , but he lacks "the eye" when it comes to unearthing average/good college talent that will step up to the next level. I may be wrong but has he ever hit, I mean really hit - quality starter/pro bowler - outside the second round (almost limited it to first but then thought of Smoot and Jansen)?

With that said, however, his first rounders have been good solid hits and no horrid busts. That is not something to be completely disregarded.

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin]And your hope that this occurred is based on what? His excellent late round record from his time in SF? No - Cerrato can track numbers on current pro players and seems to be able to tell which college star will translate to the NFL (Samuels, Arrington, Bailey, Gardner, Ramsey) , but he lacks "the eye" when it comes to unearthing average/good college talent that will step up to the next level. I may be wrong but than has he ever hit, I mean really hit - quality starter/pro bowler - outside the second round (almost limited it to first but then thought of Smoot and Jansen)?

With that said, however, his first rounders have been good solid hits and no horrid busts. That is not something to be completely disregarded.[/QUOTE]

Keep in mind that he now has Joe Gibbs looking over his shoulder, and developing late round picks are Gibbs' strength, so it should balance out.

[QUOTE=SkinsRock]Keep in mind that he now has Joe Gibbs looking over his shoulder, and developing late round picks are Gibbs' strength, so it should balance out.[/QUOTE]

Gibbs is undoubtedly good at developing actual talent that others cannot reach. The question, though, is whether he will be given any actual talent by Cerrato and crew. Gibbs can't make diamonds from quartz but can pull the diamond out of a muddy rock and polish it up real nice.

For example, what players drafted by VC in the later rounds have moved on and been developed by other talented coaches?

I wonder how much research Joe has done to later round players. He just came back to football, hes probably only watched tapes that have been given to him. I bet his concentrating on the first day, and any trades that may result on the first day.

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin]And your hope that this occurred is based on what? His excellent late round record from his time in SF? No - Cerrato can track numbers on current pro players and seems to be able to tell which college star will translate to the NFL (Samuels, Arrington, Bailey, Gardner, Ramsey) , but he lacks "the eye" when it comes to unearthing average/good college talent that will step up to the next level. I may be wrong but than has he ever hit, I mean really hit - quality starter/pro bowler - outside the second round (almost limited it to first but then thought of Smoot and Jansen)?

With that said, however, his first rounders have been good solid hits and no horrid busts. That is not something to be completely disregarded.[/QUOTE]


don't discount dockery yet. I think he can be an awesome guard especially under the tutelage of the man Mr. Bugel.

Well Dockery definitly needs someone to tutor him. He seems to have no insticts at all last year. Whether it was stepping on people, not picking up blockers. He didnt seem to do anything right until the end of the season. But hey, he lost some games for us, we get a better pick because of it. I just hope he learned a lot and worked hard this offseason.

Joe, did you seem him at training camp, how did he look?

[QUOTE=skinsfanthru&thru]don't discount dockery yet. I think he can be an awesome guard especially under the tutelage of the man Mr. Bugel.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES]Well Dockery definitly needs someone to tutor him. He seems to have no insticts at all last year. Whether it was stepping on people, not picking up blockers. He didnt seem to do anything right until the end of the season. But hey, he lost some games for us, we get a better pick because of it. I just hope he learned a lot and worked hard this offseason.[/QUOTE]

I agree with both of you. Dockery may yet pan out but he ain't there yet and could very well wash out. But, if he can be taught, Bugel is the man to do it. I think, however, that your right SFT and that Dockery will be a very good guard for long time.

OKAY, as to Vinny - How about a fourth rounder : ) ? Despite Jansen, Smoot and Dockery, is there anyone there who disagrees with my basic premise? That being - Vinny doesn't have a particularly good eye for finding average college talent that will translate to very good NFL talent? Remember, all three of them were highly regarded prospects coming out and Smoot was discussed as a No. 1 pick.

When did Cerrato get here, and what year was Stephen Davis drafted in. He was a what, 4th rounder? or 6th? one of the two I cant remember.

I pretty much agree with your assesment joe except there was also Cartwright (7th round), but I think that was more Marty's pick if I remember correctly.

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES]When did Cerrato get here, and what year was Stephen Davis drafted in. He was a what, 4th rounder? or 6th? one of the two I cant remember.[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure he was a 4th rounder. and it was before Cerrato cuz I don't remember Cerrato being here while Turner was.

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES]When did Cerrato get here, and what year was Stephen Davis drafted in. He was a what, 4th rounder? or 6th? one of the two I cant remember.[/QUOTE]

Davis was chosen in the 4th round in 1996, Vinny got here after Snyder bought the team which I think was in 1999 or 2000. I think Vinny got here in 2001. I think (again), that Vinny had been director of player personnel in San Fran before that.

[QUOTE=skinsfanthru&thru]I pretty much agree with your assesment joe except there was also Cartwright (7th round), but I think that was more Marty's pick if I remember correctly.[/QUOTE]

No, Cartwright was a Spurrier/Cerrato pick.

And now, dammit, stop pointing out flaws in my carefully thought out, fully analyzed, and wonderfully articulated theories. Pretend I am Dan Snyder and you are Terry Robiskie - Just nod and agree with me.

As a side note, I at the big Caddilac dealship last week with my friend who works there. We were parking a car when I saw Bryant Mckinney there getting his new Escalade EXT. He put about 50g's in upgrades on it, including Laborgini Doors, yes on an SUV.

Anyhow the point is the guy brining his car to him cut a corner to close and indented the entire half of the truck. Completly messed it up. I walked downstairs and sat next to McKinney and just smiled as his salesmen was saying how hes going to love the new paint job and doors (which I just saw get ruined). I couldnt stay any longer but man, that is not a dude that id want to piss off.

I wonder how Cartright is going to be used next year.

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES]I wonder how Cartright is going to be used next year.[/QUOTE]

I dunno, I really like him - he does what's asked of him and just rumbles along. Reminds me a little of Robert Newhouse in build and style (Dallas running back from the 70's - tough little mofo, about 5' 7" and had tree trunks for legs).

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin]No, Cartwright was a Spurrier/Cerrato pick.

And now, dammit, stop pointing out flaws in my carefully thought out, fully analyzed, and wonderfully articulated theories. Pretend I am Dan Snyder and you are Terry Robiskie - Just nod and agree with me.[/QUOTE]


lol, sorry for bursting your bubble. I also forgot Mccants. :thumb:

[QUOTE=skinsfanthru&thru]I also forgot Mccants. [/QUOTE]

Now you're really pissing me off!!! That is not nodding and agreeing!!! LOL

:FIREdevil MUUUUHAAHAAHAA, *clears throat* sorry, I enjoy being the devils advocate sometimes. the rest of what you said is true though and those r the only rare cases I know of unless Robert Royal stays healthy and plays well this year.

McCants, Ohalete, Brian Johnson were all late picks/undrafted, but I believe they were all Marty picks, so Joe has a point.
All I can think of for Cerrato is Cartright, but consider that we haven't had as many late picks the past couple years, plus everyone wants to give all the top players a year under a REAL NFL coach to prove what they can do, so the same should be said for the "no-names" barely on the roster and on the practice squad.
It's the coaches that take the 80 or so players in training camp and decide who is worthy of keeping on the roster, not the FO. If and when Gibbs and company recognize hidden talent and potential, they will bring it out. Are the Patriots scouts really THAT much better then the rest of the league? I think not...a lot of it is coaching.