The Anti-Media Media
 

[b]A newly acquired Internet board is the Skins’ latest party organ.[/b]

[url="http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/cheap/2005/cheap1021.html"]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/cheap/2005/cheap1021.html[/url]


Dan Snyder’s free-agent acquisitions in his early years seemed to show a fondness for an “If you can’t beat ’em, buy ’em” strategy with regard to personnel. That tack didn’t work out real well: Deion, Jeff George, the Jets’ offense, etc. Snyder hasn’t abandoned the concept, however. He’s just taken it off the field. He’s becoming the king of all media.

One of the most novel steps came in August, when the Redskins announced they had acquired ExtremeSkins.com. That was sort of the Neon Deion of fan Web sites, the most popular and brashest such outlet in the burgundy-and-gold universe. ExtremeSkins.com is the first existing fan site ever acquired by an NFL team.

Unique or not, the move was absolutely consistent with Snyder’s behavior since acquiring the Skins. The team’s media manipulation started shortly after Snyder bought the team. He acquired established publications, including the Redskins Journal, a Manassas-based independent fanzine that predated the Internet.

He began producing a series of television shows, most of which involved putting area TV and radio sportscasters, folks who are part of station’s news departments and considered journalists, on the payroll of the team they cover most. (Last month, the team debuted the Snyder-produced Redskins Late Night on WUSA-TV, leaving WJLA-TV as the only major-network-affiliated station in this market not broadcasting the team’s infomercials.)

But whereas most of Snyder’s encroachments into traditional media have been effected with next to no fanfare, some folks are taking notice of the ExtremeSkins.com takeover. Journalists not on the payroll, mainly. The Skins site has become another weapon the team can use against anybody who publicly questions management’s moves and is seen as much as an anti-media forum as a pro-Skins destination.

In an ExtremeSkins.com chat shortly after his acquisition, Snyder slammed the media for, among other things, questioning the big-screen TV at FedEx Field and for using anonymous sources in newspaper stories about his squad. (“I would encourage the local media to follow the example of the national outlets like USA Today which refuses to use unidentified sources,” Snyder posted. “Most obviously have personal agendas.”) When asked what his biggest challenge has been since taking over the team, Snyder answered, “The inaccuracies in the media. The portrayal of people and the use of the coaches, the players and the owners to sell their newspapers.”

During his own chat on ExtremeSkins.com, Karl Swanson, the team’s senior vice president and top Snyder spokesperson, directed all visitors to the “Nunyo Files,” which was a running compendium on the site of alleged reporting mistakes by Nunyo Demasio, the Washington Post reporter who recently left the Skins beat for Sports Illustrated.

A bizarre but widely believed legend among media types at Redskins Park holds that Swanson, for some time, has been railing about the coverage of the team in various postings to ExtremeSkins.com and other Web sites under the handle “andyman.” This character has attained hero status among surfers of ExtremeSkins.com for providing dead-on information about impending transactions, trashing the media all the while. When somebody on the ExtremeSkins.com praised the work of Bram Weinstein, the Redskins beat reporter for sports station WTEM-AM, for example, andyman came through with “He has no idea what’s going on at Redskins Park and neither do the other reporters.”

A recent posting on a sports-media Web site, SportsJournalists.com, seemed to out Swanson as a chat-room lurker; it claimed that the Redskins official had screwed up by registering at that site while the board was hot from a flame-filled thread about Demasio’s move to Sports Illustrated. If such a high-ranking team official, let alone one in charge of dealing with the media, were discovered to be a pseudonymous basher, that could stain the entire organization. Swanson admits that he indeed registered at SportsJournalists.com, but he says he only was trying to reach the moderator and denied having ever posted there or anywhere else as andyman.

“I know of andyman, but I do not know who that is. I am not andyman,” says Swanson.

Swanson says he thinks the real andyman is “somebody who works at a copy desk” of a newspaper (which wouldn’t really explain the character’s apparent anti-media bias).

Some media-bashers aren’t so loath to be outed. The poster who goes by Art is the Wilt Chamberlain of ExtremeSkins.com—he now claims more than 21,000 posts to the Skins site alone. Art has positioned himself as more of a media attack dog than a watchdog; he goes after any journo who utters a negative word about Snyder’s operation with the fervor of a scorned Scientologist. Art is the guy responsible for the Nunyo Files, and he says he’d be doing it even if the Redskins hadn’t acquired the site.

“My name is Art Mills, and everybody there knows that ‘Art’ is Art Mills,” he says. “I’ve been attacking bad journalism for years, before the Redskins ever knew my name, and I’ll be attacking bad journalism for years to come.”

Demasio says he gave his enemies fuel by erroneously reporting that the Redskins were going to cut Ryan Clark before the 2004 season, but he finds the continued attacks against him on ExtremeSkins.com rather amusing.

“As a journalist, every mistake hits like a dagger,” Demasio says. “So I wish I never gave one bit of ammunition. But I still can’t figure out how [the Nunyo Files were] supposed to smear me, especially after the team bought the site. If anything, it made me realize that the Washington Post got under their skins, no pun intended.”

Eric Leichter, a North Dakota urologist and one of the board’s previous owners, declines to discuss the financial terms of the Redskins’ takeover of his board. But Leichter says he supports the site’s tone just as much now as he did before it fell under Snyder’s management umbrella. In fact, he joined Mills and andyman in crashing Demasio’s going-away party at SportsJournalists.com. Posting on the site as “SkinBlade”—he uses “Blade” while bashing at ExtremeSkins.com—Leichter prodded anybody saying nice things about Demasio to “stop swinging from Nunyo’s sack.”

The Skins have rewarded Mills, who lives in Minnesota, for his anti-media venom in a very weird way. Along with getting paid for his contributions to the Redskins Web site, since Snyder’s takeover of the site, Mills now gets to watch the team’s games from—you guessed it—the press box, and all on the team’s dime. He recounts his experiences on the site, which leads to such journalism as the following, from the press box of Texas Stadium in Irving, Texas, posted just after the Skins completed their Monday Night Miracle: “Monday, Sept. 19, Brunell to MOSS TD—Now we’re obnoxious. Mediamembers looking at us. Screw them. YES BABY!!!!!!!! We sprint down to sidelines now.”

Allowing representatives from the fan site, let alone brash media-bashers, to sit alongside working media in the press box troubles Dave Elfin, the longtime Washington Times reporter who now serves as president of the Pro Football Writers Association.

“I wish they were not there,” says Elfin. “They have cheered in the press box, which is against every tenet of the press box. There are already disputes over fan Web sites [being given press credentials] in other markets. But in those other cases, the sites aren’t owned by the team. Here, the site is owned by the team, so we really have no say who gets in the press box. It’s up to the team, and they choose to let in fans disguised as journalists. It’s a distressing trend.”

Mills, who says he used to be a working newspaperman before going into medical-equipment sales, is the opposite of apologetic when he hears that some journalists question the validity of a paid fan reporting on games.

“We give fans an eyes-wide-open, aw-shucks view that they can’t get anywhere else,” he says. “Our presence is every bit as appropriate as the traditional media.” CP

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

professional poster

seems like someone's takin it a little far

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

So apparently "journalists" are too good to sit in a press box with us regular folk! This just shows the smugness and superiority complex of today's so called "journalists". This is not just an issue with sports writers but with "jorunalists" in general. Seems they in general think they know better, do better and are better than the rest of us regular people.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

wow. good article though.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]So apparently "journalists" are too good to sit in a press box with us regular folk! This just shows the smugness and superiority complex of today's so called "journalists". This is not just an issue with sports writers but with "jorunalists" in general. Seems they in general think they know better, do better and are better than the rest of us regular people.[/QUOTE]


I understand where they are coming from with the cheering in the pressbox. I've had the chance to cover a couple (minor league) games and the number one rule told to me by everyone was that you dont cheer in the pressbox. Thats why I dont know if I could achive a dream of covering the Redskins. I honestly dont think I could sit in there and be professional.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]I understand where they are coming from with the cheering in the pressbox. I've had the chance to cover a couple (minor league) games and the number one rule told to me by everyone was that you dont cheer in the pressbox. Thats why I dont know if I could achive a dream of covering the Redskins. I honestly dont think I could sit in there and be professional.[/QUOTE]My father had the chance to go to a Skins game and was a guess of a friend who was a guess of Jerry Jones. He sat in the owners box and watch the most exciting game he had ever seen as the Skins hit Aikmen in the end zone he fumbled and we recovered for a TD in the last minutes of the game (I think the game was in the mid 80's). My father could only sit there and watch as RFK was shaking from all the cheering fans. It was pretty cool because he sat beside Clarence Thomas and he has a pix with him and you can see the band playing on the field durn half time.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]I understand where they are coming from with the cheering in the pressbox. I've had the chance to cover a couple (minor league) games and the number one rule told to me by everyone was that you dont cheer in the pressbox. Thats why I dont know if I could achive a dream of covering the Redskins. I honestly dont think I could sit in there and be professional.[/QUOTE]
They're fans. It is not their job to be unbiased. They are reporting for a fan site for fans. Just because the other journalists have to appear unbiased doesn't mean they should have to also. I think they're taking themselves too seriously if they honestly think the press box must be this bastion of anti-bias and "honesty". If they can't deal with a little competiton then their insecurities show right through. It's not like the fan sit reporters are pawning themselves off as unbiased. That would be a problem.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

Cheering in the press box, regardless of your affiliation, is a little tacky and doesn't seem very professional in my book.

But that's just my opinion.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]So apparently "journalists" are too good to sit in a press box with us regular folk! This just shows the smugness and superiority complex of today's so called "journalists". This is not just an issue with sports writers but with "jorunalists" in general. Seems they in general think they know better, do better and are better than the rest of us regular people.[/QUOTE]

I agree, journalists (and not just sports jounralists) are putting themselves higher than anything....

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

the media can suck eggs for all i care. their opinions are no better than ours. and journalism has gotten to the point where it's less about fact and more about their opinion. that also is not just sports. this whole thing is pretty silly.The media has by and large forgotten it's place and is full of itself. that's why alot of other avenues for info are popping up. I'm mostly sick of this arrogant attitude they have that they are standard barrer's of what ever it is they are talking about. and most of the time they have never done what ever it is that they are talking about and yet they feel right to judge , condemn and chastise anyone they feel like. but woe to you if think you can chastise them for any reason.alot of hot air i would say. as far as this thing between snyder and the post ie media. i don't care, not my problem. but i have to say the media was in my doghouse long before snyder got here.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Cheering in the press box, regardless of your affiliation, is a little tacky and doesn't seem very professional in my book.

But that's just my opinion.[/QUOTE]

You're right, it's not a professional thing for a sportswriter to do. But they're not sportswriters. Dan Snyder gets to decide who he puts in the pressbox, and if he wants to put biased fans in there, then that's his prerogative.

Those guys are in the pressbox because there is a big demand for their product. They put out biased opinions on the Redskins through their site and the column published weekly on Redskins.com.

If Lenny P and Peter King can spew their biased anti-Skins venom all over ESPN and SI, why can't Dan Snyder counter by providing biased pro-Skins material?

I'm all for it, give the fans what they want. Ideally we'd like objective reporting. But if our choices are material biased against the Redskins, or material biased for the Redskins, you know what I'd like to be reading.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

My only concern is how this reflects on Snyder's already shaky reputation with the media.

Now there's fans cheering on the team in the press box and this is obviously not sitting well with the media who already has it out for the Skins & Snyder, plus it's not going to do much for the image of fan sites in general.

It's certainly Snyder's prerogative who he wants to put in the press box, but they shouldn't be surprised when there is some backlash.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

I'm not real familiar with Extremeskins (always prefererred this site's more subdued discussions to Extreme's shouting matches) but it would definately bother me if Redskins Adminsistrators are posting there psuedonymously so as to attack and discredit reporters, and I think this article alleges this pretty credibly. Moreoever, this would make the team's purchase of the board particularly insidious.

As for the rants against the media in this thread, I've always been impressed with the Post and Times' coverage. Although not always pro-Skin biased or whatever, I've found it in the past to be generally reliable, well-written, and full of useful information. Although they've often been critical over the years, let's not forget that the Skins have been a losing team for over a decade.

Finally, I'm glad to like a team with the history and local devotion that warrants the amount of coverage the Redskins receive - I mean, there could be no stories at all for us to compalin about

Oh yeah, one last thing. There is something very creepy about rewarding posters who go after reporters with pressbox tickets. Like the sports version of the Gestapo or something. Ick.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

I'm wouldn't be surprised if Redskins' brass are posting anonymously on extreme - or here for that matter. It's a time tested practice. For example, I'm actually the ghost of Jack Kent Cooke.

If the Redskins muckety-mucks have decided that their time is best spent on chat boards writing far-fetched conspiracy theories about the way their team is viewed, then bully for them. In fact, I'd like an application, and I'll need to put in for back pay.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]You're right, it's not a professional thing for a sportswriter to do. But they're not sportswriters. Dan Snyder gets to decide who he puts in the pressbox, and if he wants to put biased fans in there, then that's his prerogative..[/QUOTE]

If they're not sportswriters, they don't belong in the pressbox. That's why it's called the "PRESS" box.

This is particularly irking to me, as I worked my butt off for three years trying to establish myself as a "fan reporter"-- spending my own hard-earned cash and that of TheWarpath faithful, using vacation time away from my wife that could certainly have been spent on more relaxing endeavors, pulling all-nighters trying to get my camp reports published in a timely manner, not to mention the inordinate amount of butt-kissing required to get any assistance from the Redskins media relations staff, and the tremendous amount of composure and self-control required to avoid ruffling the feathers of the folks who make their living as reporters.

How was I rewarded? I was told I was no longer welcome as a fan reporter-- by none other than the very same folks who are now foisting these obnoxious, anti-media, pseudo-reporter fans upon the professional media members.

I was lucky enough to get to spend a day in the pressbox for the Redskins-Ravens scrimmage back in August-- only because I was a reporter for The Daily Progress-- but I conducted myself as professionally as I could, and tried to be as unobtrusive as possible to those who were there trying to earn a living. That's how I always behaved around Redskins Park, because that's how I would want a visitor to behave in my workplace.

How would you like it if you had people running around in your office, jumping up and down, yelling and shouting-- when you're trying to focus and get work done on deadline? Most of us would probably at some point want to grab them and toss them headlong out the nearest window. I'd imagine that's how the professional media members in that pressbox felt when they were confronted with such unwelcome behavior.

I imagine if I had known that all the Redskins wanted out of a "fan reporter" was someone who could be as obnoxious and inconsiderate as possible around the professional reporters, I could have played that role quite naturally, and TheWarpath.net would've become the Redskins' official message board long ago.

Shame on me for trying to do the right thing.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=joecrisp]If they're not sportswriters, they don't belong in the pressbox. That's why it's called the "PRESS" box.

This is particularly irking to me, as I worked my butt off for three years trying to establish myself as a "fan reporter"-- spending my own hard-earned cash and that of TheWarpath faithful, using vacation time away from my wife that could certainly have been spent on more relaxing endeavors, pulling all-nighters trying to get my camp reports published in a timely manner, not to mention the inordinate amount of butt-kissing required to get any assistance from the Redskins media relations staff, and the tremendous amount of composure and self-control required to avoid ruffling the feathers of the folks who make their living as reporters.

How was I rewarded? I was told I was no longer welcome as a fan reporter-- by none other than the very same folks who are now foisting these obnoxious, anti-media, pseudo-reporter fans upon the professional media members.

I was lucky enough to get to spend a day in the pressbox for the Redskins-Ravens scrimmage back in August-- only because I was a reporter for The Daily Progress-- but I conducted myself as professionally as I could, and tried to be as unobtrusive as possible to those who were there trying to earn a living. That's how I always behaved around Redskins Park, because that's how I would want a visitor to behave in my workplace.

How would you like it if you had people running around in your office, jumping up and down, yelling and shouting-- when you're trying to focus and get work done on deadline? Most of us would probably at some point want to grab them and toss them headlong out the nearest window. I'd imagine that's how the professional media members in that pressbox felt when they were confronted with such unwelcome behavior.

I imagine if I had known that all the Redskins wanted out of a "fan reporter" was someone who could be as obnoxious and inconsiderate as possible around the professional reporters, I could have played that role quite naturally, and TheWarpath.net would've become the Redskins' official message board long ago.

Shame on me for trying to do the right thing.[/QUOTE]

Forgive me, Joe. I don't mean to step on your toes and I understand your aspirations for becoming a journalist covering the Redskins. And you're right, traditionally the press box is there for journalists to get their work done.

All I'm saying is that Dan Snyder is entirely within his rights to allocate press box space in his stadium to whoever he chooses. First off, he doesn't owe the press anything, it's his press box, he can put 25 chimpanzees up there if he wants. I can't blame him for giving press box space to those guys, after a lot of the inaccuaracies the Post has published in recent years. And I also thought that taking the ticket spat public by reporting on it was a pretty bush-league move by the Post.

I certainly do not wish for the biased opinions of the ExtremeSkins staff to replace objective reporting by any means. For the most part, I think the Post has been relatively objective save for the ticket spat. And I still enjoy Wilbon and Kornheiser more than any biased column that ExtremeSkins could ever write. There will always be a place for objective journalism. But I'm on Snyder's side here, if he wants to provide fans with access to a column that actually exhibits the same enthusiasm that it's readers have for the team, then I applaud that. It's different, and it sure is ruffling some feathers amongst the press, but fans love it. And that's just smart business.

There will always be a demand for the objective reporting that you personally strive to bring to us, I think it will always be the preferred source of information for Redskins fans (including me). But I see no reason why enthusiasts can't be a part of the picture as well. There's room for both in my mind.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

But that's just it. There isn't always room for both. Just like joe losing his credentials and the only fan site allowed into training camp with media passes being extremeskins. The biggest thing to remember when you look at this, thought, is that all of the moderators/paid posters... whatever that are in the pressbox, are no longer objectable fans. They're employees.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=canthetuna]The biggest thing to remember when you look at this, thought, is that all of the moderators/paid posters... whatever that are in the pressbox, are no longer objectable fans. They're employees.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. As paid (or otherwise compensated) representatives of the team and presumably its fans, they should conduct themselves in a professional manner when they're in a professional setting. The pressbox is a professional environment where those present are expected to conduct themselves according to certain protocols so that everyone can observe the game free of the distractions associated with being in the general seating area among the fans.

If the fans the Redskins are inserting into that professional environment are unable to contain their enthusiasm for the game, perhaps they belong in the ample seating areas provided for fans to express themselves.

If Dan Snyder is so fond of these fellows, maybe he should invite them to sit with him in the owner's box.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Cheering in the press box, regardless of your affiliation, is a little tacky and doesn't seem very professional in my book.

But that's just my opinion.[/QUOTE]


Couldn’t agree more. Journalism requires objectivity and a fan covering his own team reeks of conflict of interest. Then again you have people like Pastabelly who have no objectivity whatsoever when it comes to the Skins.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]Forgive me, Joe. I don't mean to step on your toes and I understand your aspirations for becoming a journalist covering the Redskins. And you're right, traditionally the press box is there for journalists to get their work done.

All I'm saying is that Dan Snyder is entirely within his rights to allocate press box space in his stadium to whoever he chooses. First off, he doesn't owe the press anything, it's his press box, he can put 25 chimpanzees up there if he wants. I can't blame him for giving press box space to those guys, after a lot of the inaccuaracies the Post has published in recent years. And I also thought that taking the ticket spat public by reporting on it was a pretty bush-league move by the Post.

I certainly do not wish for the biased opinions of the ExtremeSkins staff to replace objective reporting by any means. For the most part, I think the Post has been relatively objective save for the ticket spat. And I still enjoy Wilbon and Kornheiser more than any biased column that ExtremeSkins could ever write. There will always be a place for objective journalism. But I'm on Snyder's side here, if he wants to provide fans with access to a column that actually exhibits the same enthusiasm that it's readers have for the team, then I applaud that. It's different, and it sure is ruffling some feathers amongst the press, but fans love it. And that's just smart business.

There will always be a demand for the objective reporting that you personally strive to bring to us, I think it will always be the preferred source of information for Redskins fans (including me). But I see no reason why enthusiasts can't be a part of the picture as well. There's room for both in my mind.[/QUOTE]

No offense taken, Schneed10, I just felt that your argument struck at the core problem: these guys AREN'T journalists, they have no aspiration to be journalists, and apparently, they share the Redskins' dislike and general lack of respect for journalists. So why on earth are they in the pressbox? It makes no sense. There's no reason for them to be there.

You want to put them in the owner's box, or some other appropriate place for VIPs? Fine. Be Dan Snyder's guest. But they don't need to be in the press box to write the stuff they write-- which hardly qualifies as journalism. Well-crafted propaganda, yes (in the case of Mr. Steven, at least). But certainly not journalism, which requires an objective eye, and an allegiance only to the truth.

The reason the real journalists are taking umbrage to the presence of these unabashed fans and media-haters is not that they feel they are somehow above the fans or the general public. The reason they are so upset is that it's a clear and deliberate "F-You" from Snyder and Swanson to the media. By putting the fans in the pressbox, the Redskins are basically saying, "we're going to violate the sanctity of your institution, and make it as difficult for you to do your job as possible."

Apparently, that's been the modus operandi of Snyder's regime since the beginning anyway, so I guess it should come as no surprise. Why then, do Snyder and the Snyderettes act so shocked and surprised and victimized when the media hangs the Redskins' dirty laundry out in the sun for all to see?

Why? Because that's how propaganda works.

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[QUOTE=joecrisp]Exactly. As paid (or otherwise compensated) representatives of the team and presumably its fans, they should conduct themselves in a professional manner when they're in a professional setting. The pressbox is a professional environment where those present are expected to conduct themselves according to certain protocols so that everyone can observe the game free of the distractions associated with being in the general seating area among the fans.

If the fans the Redskins are inserting into that professional environment are unable to contain their enthusiasm for the game, perhaps they belong in the ample seating areas provided for fans to express themselves.

If Dan Snyder is so fond of these fellows, maybe he should invite them to sit with him in the owner's box.[/QUOTE]

Here's the thing though, they're not employees of the team. They're a separate business entity which is now owned by the team. The guys at ExtremeSkins don't toe the company line because they were bought out; they were bought out because they've been toeing the company line all along, and now the Redskins are taking advantage of it as a way to reach out to fans who want the enthusiastic approach. I don't think they are representatives of the team.

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[QUOTE=saden1]Couldn’t agree more. Journalism requires objectivity and a fan covering his own team reeks of conflict of interest. Then again you have people like Pastabelly who have no objectivity whatsoever when it comes to the Skins.[/QUOTE]

The entire point is that it's not objective. Tell me when the Redskins have ever tried to pass ExtremeSkins off as a source of objective information???

The Redskins promote it on Redskins.com as an unprecedented distribution channel for access to the team, that's it. I can't understand why people are insisting that ExtremeSkins be held to journalistic standards. Just because Snyder places them in the press box, that doesn't mean he thinks they're journalists.

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[QUOTE=Schneed10]The entire point is that it's not objective. Tell me when the Redskins have ever tried to pass ExtremeSkins off as a source of objective information???

The Redskins promote it on Redskins.com as an unprecedented distribution channel for access to the team, that's it. I can't understand why people are insisting that ExtremeSkins be held to journalistic standards. Just because Snyder places them in the press box, that doesn't mean he thinks they're journalists.[/QUOTE]


No one is saying they our journalists. But they are going into a professional setting and acting like asses. I'm sure at your work, with whatever you do, if I'm hired as a maintence guy or somthing and put in your office for the day and am jumping up and down screaming, you'd be pissed off too. They are getting paid to go into a professional setting, and acting like jackasses. Bottom line.

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[QUOTE=joecrisp]No offense taken, Schneed10, I just felt that your argument struck at the core problem: these guys AREN'T journalists, they have no aspiration to be journalists, and apparently, they share the Redskins' dislike and general lack of respect for journalists. So why on earth are they in the pressbox? It makes no sense. There's no reason for them to be there.

You want to put them in the owner's box, or some other appropriate place for VIPs? Fine. Be Dan Snyder's guest. But they don't need to be in the press box to write the stuff they write-- which hardly qualifies as journalism. Well-crafted propaganda, yes (in the case of Stevens, at least). But certainly not journalism, which requires an objective eye, and an allegiance only to the truth.

The reason the real journalists are taking umbrage to the presence of these unabashed fans and media-haters is not that they feel they are somehow above the fans or the general public. The reason they are so upset is that it's a clear and deliberate "F-You" from Snyder and Swanson to the media. By putting the fans in the pressbox, the Redskins are basically saying, "we're going to violate the sanctity of your institution, and make it as difficult for you to do your job as possible."

Apparently, that's been the modus operandi of Snyder's regime since the beginning anyway, so I guess it should come as no surprise. Why then, do Snyder and the Snyderettes act so shocked and surprised and victimized when the media hangs the Redskins' dirty laundry out in the sun for all to see?

Why? Because that's how propaganda works.[/QUOTE]

Which brings me to my third point. I know you're a journalist Joe, so I can understand why this would be an issue for you. But by and large, nobody cares if a little less press box space is available to real journalists. I totally agree with you that Dan Snyder is holding up his middle finger to the press on this move. He's giving it to them right in the ass. Is it a dick move? Sure. But the average fan doesn't care.

It's not like he's sticking his middle finger up to all journalists. Never did Dan Snyder say he had a problem with all journalism. He said, in his ExtremeSkins chat, that he has a problem with inaccuracies in the media. And he's got a point. That doesn't mean all of the press was inaccurate though.

We've had many discussions on this site which highlighted our feelings that Dan Snyder has gotten a bad rap as an owner, more so that he deserves. He has made some solid football moves lately which have gone unrecognized because of SOME of the media's inability to let go of their initial impression of him; that he is a meddling owner who deserves to fail. I assert that THOSE members of the media were not doing their homework and not giving him credit where credit was due. To those members of the media I think they deserve Dan Snyder's F YOU, and I join him. I say F YOU to Pastabelly for his refusal to give any credit free of underhanded digs, I say F YOU to the Post for taking the ticket spat public in the papers, and I say F YOU to any journalist who still writes that Dan Snyder is still a meddlesome owner without any supporting evidence other than the actions he took 4 years ago.

In the end, I can see where Snyder is coming from. He has been victimized by a portion of the media. I can see where you are coming from too, because it has robbed some honest, hardworking journalists like yourself of some space in the pressbox. But to that I say don't blame Dan Snyder, blame the journalists who refuse to report objective material. They are the ones that ruined it for you.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]No one is saying they our journalists. But they are going into a professional setting and acting like asses. I'm sure at your work, with whatever you do, if I'm hired as a maintence guy or somthing and put in your office for the day and am jumping up and down screaming, you'd be pissed off too. They are getting paid to go into a professional setting, and acting like jackasses. Bottom line.[/QUOTE]

So? Why would we care about that? Sure, OK, it's a dick move and unprofessional. So what?

Could it be that some people here at the Warpath are a wee bit jealous of the guys at ExtremeSkins? Is that why we're upset that they disturbed the journalists while they were writing?

I don't get the beef. I don't see why anyone here would care if someone is in the press box yelling and disturbing anybody.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]Here's the thing though, they're not employees of the team. They're a separate business entity which is now owned by the team. The guys at ExtremeSkins don't toe the company line because they were bought out; they were bought out because they've been toeing the company line all along, and now the Redskins are taking advantage of it as a way to reach out to fans who want the enthusiastic approach. I don't think they are representatives of the team.[/QUOTE]

They're representatives of the Official Message Board **OF** the Washington Redskins. That word "OF" is key here (thus the obnoxious little asterisks). That word implies ownership and possession. If they represent a smaller entity that belongs to a larger entity, do they not represent the larger entity as well? For example, if I worked for ESPN (one can dream, can't he?), would I not also be an employee-- and therefore a representative-- of Walt Disney?

Only in this case, the relationship is much more direct, and judging by the fringe benefits (and whatever other possibly unrevealed compensation) the Extremeskins staff is enjoying, I'd say they have quite a vested stake in their positive representation of the team. They've said it themselves: they'd be foolish to bite the hand that feeds them.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=joecrisp]They're representatives of the Official Message Board **OF** the Washington Redskins. That word "OF" is key here (thus the obnoxious little asterisks). That word implies ownership and possession. If they represent a smaller entity that belongs to a larger entity, do they not represent the larger entity as well? For example, if I worked for ESPN (one can dream, can't he?), would I not also be an employee-- and therefore a representative-- of Walt Disney?

Only in this case, the relationship is much more direct, and judging by the fringe benefits (and whatever other possibly unrevealed compensation) the Extremeskins staff is enjoying, I'd say they have quite a vested stake in their positive representation of the team. They've said it themselves: they'd be foolish to bite the hand that feeds them.[/QUOTE]

You're right, they would be foolish to bite the hand that feeds them. But they never intended to bite that hand when it wasn't feeding them. They've always been a rah rah bunch; by and large they've always been defenders of the Redskins and the front office. My point is that you can't sell out when you're already on their side.

And besides, they're giving the people what they want.

I still come here for good quality discussions, because an unaffiliated site brings the freedom to be more objective. But I like ExtremeSkins.com too, they play a cool role in giving access to the team, even though I know they're never going to ask Gibbs or Swanson or Snyder any hard-hitting questions.

There's a place for everyone.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]So? Why would we care about that? Sure, OK, it's a dick move and unprofessional. So what?[/quote]

Stuff like this only adds to fuel to the fire for the media that already has a strong dislike for Snyder, and in turn it reflects negatively on the fans. Like it or not, these guys represent our fan base and they certainly aren't doing the fan sites any favors with their negative publicity.

[quote]Could it be that some people here at the Warpath are a wee bit jealous of the guys at ExtremeSkins? Is that why we're upset that they disturbed the journalists while they were writing?[/quote]

Jealous? Nah. Ticked off that we got the rug pulled out from under us... definitely.

Snyder takes a lot of crap in the press without a doubt, some deserved and some not, but he would have been better served by taking the high road rather than stooping down to the media's often immature and uninformed level.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=joecrisp]
Only in this case, the relationship is much more direct, and judging by the fringe benefits (and whatever other possibly unrevealed compensation) the Extremeskins staff is enjoying, I'd say they have quite a vested stake in their positive representation of the team. They've said it themselves: they'd be foolish to bite the hand that feeds them.[/QUOTE]

and that is why their articles are bullshit and reflect the opinions only of the fans that are happy with every move the team makes. I am still somewhat pissed about the aritcle that divided the fans up into two groups in the lavar issue and not only stating a differense in opinion but telling the fans what was the 100% right opinion and what was the "the world is flat" dumbass opinion. The REDSKINS shouldn't be allowing articles that divide the fan base on redskins.com
---------------
and speaking of danny boy deserving some respect. [url="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/051020"]ESPN TEN MORE NFL TRUTHS[/url]


[b]"5. Redskins owner Daniel Snyder deserves credit for allowing Joe Gibbs to bench LaVar Arrington.[/b]

You hear all the horror stories about Snyder's being a meddlesome owner who has ruined the Redskins. You never hear the good stuff.

How many NFL owners would let a guy they gave an eight-year, $80 million contract rot on the bench? Even if the guy was a stiff, most owners would demand that a player in Arrington's situation play simply because of the dollars involved.

Arrington, despite a 2004 knee injury, isn't a stiff. He can still do the things that made him a three-time Pro Bowler. Arrington just isn't "assignment sound" enough for Joe Gibbs and defensive coordinator Gregg Williams. Gibbs and Williams adopted the defensive approach that has been the mainstay of Bill Belichick's New England defenses. Belichick will sacrifice athleticism at linebacker for players who will always fill the right gap."

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

I guess to sum up my thoughts, I like the Post for it's coverage of the team when it's reporting objectively. I like the Warpath because it has, in my opinion, the smartest, most civilized, and well-educated fans, which makes for very stimulating debate and discussion. (and I LOVE the inside info you're able to get us, Joe) I like ExtremeSkins.com because when I read the column they post on Redskins.com, it always makes me feel warm and fuzzy about the Skins, even if it's biased.

Some sources provide information, some sources allow for fruitful discussion, and some sources just plain make me feel good. I like them all.

But I'm here at the Warpath more often than all of them.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

Joe - we met while covering minicamp this Summer. I enjoyed chatting with you, and believe you're a good guy. I understand your bitterness here (and I don't use that as a loaded word, just an honest one). You have no doubt done a great job over the years covering all things Redskins. By the same token, the staff at extreme (of which I'm obviously one) have been hard at it for 5+ years as well, funding a growing site out of our own pockets, and like you, spending countless hours to provide a quality place for Redskins fans to hang. This was the chance of a lifetime for us, and after a lot of careful consideration, we jumped at it, as we believe any of you would have.

There are a lot of half-truths in play here. First of all, we are [u]not[/u] employees of the Redskins. Period. Although its likely we could have gotten a 'payday' from the team, we chose instead to bargain for access, because it was something we could share with our members. The team does not tell us what members can and cannot say. They let us run the site as we always have. Thats a fact.

The article in question is misleading. We have never, ever pretended to be reporters. We are fans. And its that reference point that drives everything we do. Have we cheered in the pressbox? Yes. For a sum total of 5-10 seconds during the stunning Redskins comeback in Dallas, two of our staff made some noise. I think most fans understand losing control in an emotional moment like that and would hardly characterize that as somehow ominous or terrible. I've personally covered 3 of the 5 games, and haven't uttered a peep. Not once. The vast majority of our time (probably > 95%) has been spent on the field, not even in the pressbox. We have done our job professionally, politely, and unobtrusively. The idea that we've been a distraction to members of the media in the pressbox is worse than insinuation - its an outright lie, and one I sincerely believe you would not want to perpetuate.

Finally, if we're part of a Redskins anti-media conspiracy, someone forgot to invite me to the planning sessions. We bash the skins right along with our regular members on whats now the offical messageboard. No one from the Redskins has said a peep to us about it. Not once. Extremeskins is not much different than it ever was. Personally, I have nothing but respect for the pro media guys. I've said so repeatedly and publically, and in person when I've had the chance to meet class acts like Bram Weinstein, Nunyo, Jason C., others.

I like what you produce, as I've told you before - I just think maybe you're getting some bad information along the way. Nothing but respect for you and the Warpath. But give the 'other guys' some credit. We didn't get where we are by being mindless idiots.

Best of luck!

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

Btw, I'm seriously disappointed that some of you here don't even think of giving us the benefit of the doubt, and leap to the assumption that everything you've 'read' is accurate.

Its not.

And if you knew the truth in this case, you'd feel pretty sheepish about slamming us for it.

I have an advantage in stating my opinion here. I actually know what I'm talking about. Unlike the author and those throwing grenades.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Stuff like this only adds to fuel to the fire for the media that already has a strong dislike for Snyder, and in turn it reflects negatively on the fans. Like it or not, these guys represent our fan base and they certainly aren't doing the fan sites any favors with their negative publicity.[/QUOTE]

Interesting point. I for one certainly don't care if anything adds fuel to the fire of hatred for Dan Snyder. If journalists want to continue asserting inaccuracies such as the favorite "Dan Snyder is doing a crappy job because he's meddlesome", then they can go ahead for all I care. I don't care if it adds fuel to the fire and makes the media dislike Snyder more. Either the media does their jobs right, or they don't. If they don't do their jobs right, then I say piss off to them. I couldn't care less.

If that reflects poorly on the fan base, now that's something that I could care even less about. I'm interested in good objective journalism first and foremost. So if the middle finger I'm pointing at bad journalists reflects poorly on me as a fan, then let it. Maybe that's a concern to some, but I'm not one of them.



[QUOTE=Mattyk72] Jealous? Nah. Ticked off that we got the rug pulled out from under us... definitely.

Snyder takes a lot of crap in the press without a doubt, some deserved and some not, but he would have been better served by taking the high road rather than stooping down to the media's often immature and uninformed level.[/QUOTE]

In the end, I guess I just don't care if Dan Snyder was the nice guy, or if Dan Snyder was a dick. I just care if he:
1) Tries his guts out to put a winning team on the field
2) Makes being a fan of the team more fun. And reading fluffy interviews with Coach Gibbs on ExtremeSkins is fun to me.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=Tarhog]Btw, I'm seriously disappointed that some of you here don't even think of giving us the benefit of the doubt, and leap to the assumption that everything you've 'read' is accurate.

Its not.

And if you knew the truth in this case, you'd feel pretty sheepish about slamming us for it.

I have an advantage in stating my opinion here. I actually know what I'm talking about. Unlike the author and those throwing grenades.[/QUOTE]

Great points are made by Tarhog.

1) Nobody here at the Warpath was in the press box and was there to witness any alleged unprofessional behavior.

2) Just because a company is purchased by another company, that does not mean they then work for the parent company and are under direction from them. Phillip Morris owns Kraft Foods, but employees of Kraft Foods work for Kraft and answer to people at Kraft.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

The only two problems i have had with the extremeskins thing with the skins so far is

1. Joe got his fan reporter credits taken away --this i was seriously pissed about

2. Just a couple paragraphs in the one article posted on Redskins.com about arrington-this is such a small thing but while i agree with what the author was saying i don't think that there should be a division among fans between right and wrong. EXPECIALLY on redskins.com. I don't care if people here, at extremeskins, hogs.net, hailredskins or anyother place called a certain group of fans stupid but it being on redskins.com just erked me. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, even if the opinion is that everyone that disagrees with them are dumbasses, but it shouldn't be on redskins.com. Basically i am much more mad at the redskins than at the writer because the writer has an opinion but we are all fans and the redskins shouldn't start dividing us to build their self image(propaganda)

Other than that 1 big thing about joe and that one article i love everything else. There is nothing not to like as fans as we get interviews, pictures, and media attention.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

Joe,

I just wanted to say I'm sorry things didn't work out better for you. I have always promoted your work. When we were able to become part of the Redskins I even engaged in discussions to bring you on board as we needed experience and local guys to help us out since we're missing out on a lot of stuff we could be doing by being short-staffed.

Unfortunately, you developed something of a negative reaction with many at Redskins Park who felt you were obtrusive and self-serving. I have heard stories about how uncomfortable you made some people with your self-promotion to them and that you were absolutely not going to be part of our efforts. I was surprised to hear this and think no less of you for having heard it.

I just think it's unfortunate you have developed a negative view of us for accomplishing something you wanted to accomplish but were unable to. One thing going for us, to be fair, is the team was never looking for "fan journalists". It had all the journalists it could handle and it had all the fans it could handle. It didn't need fans acting like reporters. It wanted fans acting like fans.

As you know, the "press" box is not just for "press". It's for PR folks, scouts, writers from team sites, etc. There are lots of people who are not in the professional media, with strong team ties, who are in every press box there is. The media has rules it is responsible for abiding by. A team scout isn't bound by the same. I think you know this. I hope you do.

I'm sorry you feel as upset with us. We've always considered you a friend who we've promoted. We will continue to do so. With hope, you'll come to forgive us.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]So? Why would we care about that? Sure, OK, it's a dick move and unprofessional. So what?

Could it be that some people here at the Warpath are a wee bit jealous of the guys at ExtremeSkins? Is that why we're upset that they disturbed the journalists while they were writing?

I don't get the beef. I don't see why anyone here would care if someone is in the press box yelling and disturbing anybody.[/QUOTE]

I don't get why I would be jealous of them. I was doing the whole "hanging out with the players and coaches" thing a long time before they came around, and I'm sure I'll be a doing a lot more of that in the future, regardless of whether I'm directly affiliated with the team or not.

My beef is, in fact, with the manner in which the Redskins have conducted their entire anti-med... err... "media relations" operation. The ExtremeSkins situation is a prime example of why the media and the Redskins have been at odds for so long now. The behavior or those fans in the pressbox isn't unlike the behavior of Snyder and Swanson towards the press corps. In fact, it's quite representative.

Apparently, Messrs Snyder and Swanson aren't familiar with the old adage, "kill them with kindness." They're taking the 21st century craze of media-bashing to new, unexplored heights.

I'm sure that will win them a lot of fans in the press. I'm sure Redskins fans won't care. I'm sure and everyone will stop reading all news sources other than those directly from the team, and will chuckle happily right along with Larry Michael as he feeds them the "unfiltered" daily scoop of fluff straight from Redskins Park. I'm sure they'll grin smugly along with good Ol' Art Mills as he boisterously details his latest anti-media antics. I'm sure nobody will know anything other than this: the Redskins are a great, wonderful and beneficent franchise, with only the most marvelous of owners, whose sole raison d'etre is to make the fans happy. Ignorance truly is bliss, isn't it, Redskins fans?

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

I just want to make it clear that I'm well aware, as I'm sure Joe is, that the piece written about ES is full of inaccuracies. I guess it just sparked off a debate is all. It still doesn't change the way we think, but again we're aware the article was a hack job.

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=Tarhog]Joe - we met while covering minicamp this Summer. I enjoyed chatting with you, and believe you're a good guy. I understand your bitterness here (and I don't use that as a loaded word, just an honest one). You have no doubt done a great job over the years covering all things Redskins. By the same token, the staff at extreme (of which I'm obviously one) have been hard at it for 5+ years as well, funding a growing site out of our own pockets, and like you, spending countless hours to provide a quality place for Redskins fans to hang. This was the chance of a lifetime for us, and after a lot of careful consideration, we jumped at it, as we believe any of you would have.

There are a lot of half-truths in play here. First of all, we are [u]not[/u] employees of the Redskins. Period. Although its likely we could have gotten a 'payday' from the team, we chose instead to bargain for access, because it was something we could share with our members. The team does not tell us what members can and cannot say. They let us run the site as we always have. Thats a fact.

The article in question is misleading. We have never, ever pretended to be reporters. We are fans. And its that reference point that drives everything we do. Have we cheered in the pressbox? Yes. For a sum total of 5-10 seconds during the stunning Redskins comeback in Dallas, two of our staff made some noise. I think most fans understand losing control in an emotional moment like that and would hardly characterize that as somehow ominous or terrible. I've personally covered 3 of the 5 games, and haven't uttered a peep. Not once. The vast majority of our time (probably > 95%) has been spent on the field, not even in the pressbox. We have done our job professionally, politely, and unobtrusively. The idea that we've been a distraction to members of the media in the pressbox is worse than insinuation - its an outright lie, and one I sincerely believe you would not want to perpetuate.

Finally, if we're part of a Redskins anti-media conspiracy, someone forgot to invite me to the planning sessions. We bash the skins right along with our regular members on whats now the offical messageboard. No one from the Redskins has said a peep to us about it. Not once. Extremeskins is not much different than it ever was. Personally, I have nothing but respect for the pro media guys. I've said so repeatedly and publically, and in person when I've had the chance to meet class acts like Bram Weinstein, Nunyo, Jason C., others.

I like what you produce, as I've told you before - I just think maybe you're getting some bad information along the way. Nothing but respect for you and the Warpath. But give the 'other guys' some credit. We didn't get where we are by being mindless idiots.

Best of luck![/QUOTE]
Anybody think they'll be a another article explaining the other side of the story as Tarhog as explained it? I bet not...

I read the article again and it is obviously a hack job. The entire thing is full of loaded terms like 'bashing', 'anti-media', 'venom', etc... I could name 10 others.

Joe brings up obviously valid points. Cheering in the press box by journalists should be unacceptable. The question is should the exteremskins reps be treated as equals to the other journalists? Should they be held to the same standards and abide by the same rules? Well to me it seems obvious that the main stream media types don't consider them peers. So why is it that they seem to want them to abide by their rules? Is there no room for different types of 'journalism' here? I would totally and unabashedly agree with Joe if everyone was presenting the extremeskins guys as fair and balanced 'journalists' but no one has said this. They are reporting for a fan site. A fan site by defention means the readers by and large are supporters and tend to see the team through colored glasses. The reporting by association will be colored and everyone knows it and accepts it. Heck they expect it.

I think the real question needs to be should they be allowed in the press box? It seems this is the crux of the discussion regarding the media v. exteremskins. I say yes because to me mainstram media has done such a poor job of doing the job of reporting facts, being fair and offering a clear and honest representation of the entire story so many times I have lost respect for much of them. They do not in my opinion have the right to their own quiet little lair where they can't be trusted to be honest. If they could act in a true professional manner which did not impune their own integrity then I'd be willing to respect them a little more and give them a chance to do their job in peace but until then they get no such respect and have no right in my eyes to complain about anything.

as an aside:
Why is it that so many reporters seem to feel they always have the right to whatever they want (always in the name of a story) but never feel they need to answer for what they do (when they are often so wrong and/or biased)?

Re: The Anti-Media Media
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]Anybody think they'll be a another article explaining the other side of the story as Tarhog as explained it? I bet not...

I read the article again and it is obviously a hack job. The entire thing is full of loaded terms like 'bashing', 'anti-media', 'venom', etc... I could name 10 others.

Joe brings up obviously valid points. Cheering in the press box by journalists should be unacceptable. The question is should the exteremskins reps be treated as equals to the other journalists? Should they be held to the same standards and abide by the same rules? Well to me it seems obvious that the main stream media types don't consider them peers. So why is it that they seem to want them to abide by their rules? Is there no room for different types of 'journalism' here? I would totally and unabashedly agree with Joe if everyone was presenting the extremeskins guys as fair and balanced 'journalists' but no one has said this. They are reporting for a fan site. A fan site by defention means the readers by and large are supporters and tend to see the team through colored glasses. The reporting by association will be colored and everyone knows it and accepts it. Heck they expect it.

I think the real question needs to be should they be allowed in the press box? It seems this is the crux of the discussion regarding the media v. exteremskins. I say yes because to me mainstram media has done such a poor job of doing the job of reporting facts, being fair and offering a clear and honest representation of the entire story so many times I have lost respect for much of them. They do not in my opinion have the right to their own quiet little lair where they can't be trusted to be honest. If they could act in a true professional manner which did not impune their own integrity then I'd be willing to respect them a little more and give them a chance to do their job in peace but until then they get no such respect and have no right in my eyes to complain about anything.

as an aside:
Why is it that so many reporters seem to feel they always have the right to whatever they want (always in the name of a story) but never feel they need to answer for what they do (when they are often so wrong and/or biased)?[/QUOTE]

Great post.