Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

Many of you know I've been critical of Clinton Portis. But for a moment, let's put that aside and discuss another issue. Read this excerpt from the WP:

[FONT=Times New Roman]"Portis was an integral part of the Redskins' running game last Sunday against San Diego's top-rated rush defense, with Coach Joe Gibbs calling 13 running plays in the final quarter with his team leading by 10 points. But Portis gained only 36 yards on those carries and was held to a yard or less on five carries, getting stopped for no gain on his final two rushes.

The problem was worse on third down. Portis's seven fourth-quarter carries on second or third down picked up a total of 13 yards (1.8 per carry), with Washington unable to capitalize on first-down gains. Portis is averaging just 3.7 yards per carry in the fourth quarter overall this season -- the NFL average is 4.1 -- and over the last three games he has gained only 57 yards on 18 carries in the fourth quarter (3.2 per carry), and has just 10 carries for 27 yards on third downs this season, well off his 2005 average of 4.2 per carry."[/FONT]

***

OK, if Portis isn't the problem as many have argued, then what is the problem? Is it the offensive line? If so, who's the weak link? We've always said it's Derrick Dockery, but this is a pattern that's starting to point at more than just one player. Rabach's holding penalties certainly don't help. But why is it that an offensive line made up of names like Samuels, Jansen and Thomas isn't consistently paving the way when the team needs it most? Could a mammoth run blocking tight end like Ron Middleton make a difference?

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]Many of you know I've been critical of Clinton Portis. But for a moment, let's put that aside and discuss another issue. Read this excerpt from the WP:

[font=Times New Roman]"Portis was an integral part of the Redskins' running game last Sunday against San Diego's top-rated rush defense, with Coach Joe Gibbs calling 13 running plays in the final quarter with his team leading by 10 points. But Portis gained only 36 yards on those carries and was held to a yard or less on five carries, getting stopped for no gain on his final two rushes.

The problem was worse on third down. Portis's seven fourth-quarter carries on second or third down picked up a total of 13 yards (1.8 per carry), with Washington unable to capitalize on first-down gains. Portis is averaging just 3.7 yards per carry in the fourth quarter overall this season -- the NFL average is 4.1 -- and over the last three games he has gained only 57 yards on 18 carries in the fourth quarter (3.2 per carry), and has just 10 carries for 27 yards on third downs this season, well off his 2005 average of 4.2 per carry."[/font]

***

OK, if Portis isn't the problem as many have argued, then what is the problem? Is it the offensive line? If so, who's the weak link? We've always said it's Derrick Dockery, but this is a pattern that's starting to point at more than just one player. Rabach's holding penalties certainly don't help. But why is it that an offensive line made up of names like Samuels, Jansen and Thomas isn't consistently paving the way when the team needs it most? Could a mammoth run blocking tight end like Ron Middleton make a difference?[/QUOTE]
The problem is they can afford to stack the line and move the safteys up..we wont throw the ball downfield...and we are lucky to even throw it short in the 4th qtr..the o-line is fine ..no deep passes is what has been the running games problem all season.. until we make them respect and protect the long pass teams will stack the line

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]The problem is they can afford to stack the line and move the safteys up..we wont throw the ball downfield...and we are lucky to even throw it short in the 4th qtr..the o-line is fine ..no deep passes is what has been the running games problem all season.. until we make them respect and protect the long pass teams will stack the line[/QUOTE]

But were they stacking the line on each play in the 4th quarter when trying to run it? I don't have a tape of the game, so I can't go back and look. But even it that were true, isn't there an audible system in Gibbs' offense for Brunell to exploit 8 in the box?

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

portis doesnt really get a lot of space to run in, so he cannot do his moves and cut backs

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

they know we will run it and that is why a couple weeks ago we had a discussion that if gibbs should have passed the ball in a critical 3rd down, i said gibbs should have.

As far as the line goes i think janson and samuels surprisingly have been the two weakest only after Rabach. The line's players in my mind rank as follows

Thomas- Deserving of a pro bowl
Doc- Much better than we all thought, remember throwing people down in the preseason
Samuels- he hasn't been blantly bad but hasn't been good either
Janson- Maybe we overhyped the loss of him last year because when he came back he was suppossed to be our savior and he can't live up to those standards-two broken thumbs don't help much
Rabach- Still a huge improvement over raymer

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

just the playcalling. that is what is killing our running game. knowing when to run and when ti pass. we need to develop audibles, like someone mention earlier, at the lin e of scrimmage to keep the defenses honest like the colts do and that is why edge always have those hundred yard gain he does not run when the box is stacked like portis does.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=BigSKINBauer]Janson- Maybe we overhyped the loss of him last year because when he came back he was suppossed to be our savior and he can't live up to those standards-two broken thumbs don't help much
[/QUOTE]

we didnt overhype jansen. the broken thumbs are the reason he isnt performing to the level that he can. definitely going to make you less effective if you cant hold or grab or anything with your hands

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

Portis isn't meant to run while there is 8 men in the box ( maybe if it was a toss or something) but i have never seen that one play work... i can't remember the name but it's the play we run all the time and used to run it back in the 80s where the guard and tackle pull because it's not his style

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=Duffman003]Portis isn't meant to run while there is 8 men in the box ( maybe if it was a toss or something) but i have never seen that one play work... i can't remember the name but it's the play we run all the time and used to run it back in the 80s where the guard and tackle pull because it's not his style[/QUOTE]
counter- tre

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]counter- tre[/QUOTE]


Actually, it's counter-trey. Or counter-gap. And Gibbs calls many of those plays. I do think there's something to the playcalling. Since this team hasn't established itself as one that can run the ball down everyone's throat when the opposing team knows we're going to run it, the playcallers -- whoever they are -- need to throw defenses off balance by short or intermediate range passing unexpectedly. So far, they haven't been able to do it.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=Sean"Big Hurt"Taylor]just the playcalling. that is what is killing our running game. knowing when to run and when ti pass. we need to develop audibles, like someone mention earlier, at the lin e of scrimmage to keep the defenses honest like the colts do and that is why edge always have those hundred yard gain he does not run when the box is stacked like portis does.[/QUOTE]

I agree, our playcalling is just too predicatable down the stretch. No team is going to be so dominante in todays NFL that they can just do it anyways.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]The problem is they can afford to stack the line and move the safteys up..we wont throw the ball downfield...and we are lucky to even throw it short in the 4th qtr..the o-line is fine ..no deep passes is what has been the running games problem all season.. until we make them respect and protect the long pass teams will stack the line[/QUOTE]
Not to :bdh: but I have ben saying that we need a 2nd WR threat. With 11 guys on D you can put 2 on Moss, 1 on whoever is opposite of Moss, and 8 in the box. Yeah, you do have to worry about Cooley, but he is an intermediate threat, not a downfield threat.

Also, about the audiables(SP) in Gibbs system, I really dont think that there is any or Gibbs gets pretty PO'd if one is called.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

im not sold on jansen.he might have 2 broken thumbs but in the raider game his footwork was so bad i could have had a couple of sacks going against him

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=Redskins8588]Also, about the audiables(SP) in Gibbs system, I really dont think that there is any or Gibbs gets pretty PO'd if one is called.[/QUOTE]

thats why i say its a 1979 offense and not 2005

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

ITS PORTIS! if you look at san diego they run essentially the same running plays that we do, but LT in the 4th and OT quarters got stronger not weaker. Watch the play of Portis if there isnt a hole he just runs into the back of his OL he hardly ever bounces it outside, and if he does find a break he trips all over himself. Maybe he is thinking too much of his stupid costumes he gonna wear on Thursday. When Rock or Betts get in there they seem to find holes for good gains, isnt it the same line thats in there all game?

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=Stacks42]ITS PORTIS! if you look at san diego they run essentially the same running plays that we do, but LT in the 4th and OT quarters got stronger not weaker. Watch the play of Portis if there isnt a hole he just runs into the back of his OL he hardly ever bounces it outside, and if he does find a break he trips all over himself. Maybe he is thinking too much of his stupid costumes he gonna wear on Thursday. When Rock or Betts get in there they seem to find holes for good gains, isnt it the same line thats in there all game?[/QUOTE]

Have we really come to people saying ROCK or BETTS are better backs than Portis. :Flush:

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

im not saying they are better they are def back ups, but they seem to find holes where Portis cannot. Portis runs for 3 yds/carry, Cartwright gets in there and runs for 13 for a TD, whens that last time you saw portis do that? Im saying when they get their shots they move the ball, throw Nemo in there. I dont care how much we spent on Portis if someone else can do the job then let em, hes not doing it

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=Stacks42]ITS PORTIS! if you look at san diego they run essentially the same running plays that we do, but LT in the 4th and OT quarters got stronger not weaker. Watch the play of Portis if there isnt a hole he just runs into the back of his OL he hardly ever bounces it outside, and if he does find a break he trips all over himself. Maybe he is thinking too much of his stupid costumes he gonna wear on Thursday. When Rock or Betts get in there they seem to find holes for good gains, isnt it the same line thats in there all game?[/QUOTE]
San Diego DOES NOT run essentially the same plays. LT has something that Portis does not have and that is a "blocking" FB. I think that Portis would run better if we used Sellers in the FB roll more often, but we dont.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=Redskins8588]San Diego DOES NOT run essentially the same plays. LT has something that Portis does not have and that is a "blocking" FB. I think that Portis would run better if we used Sellers in the FB roll more often, but we dont.[/QUOTE]

Good point, LT is running behind the best run-blocking FB (Lorenzo Neal) in the league. Only KC's Tony Richardson is in the same "league" as Neal.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]thats why i say its a 1979 offense and not 2005[/QUOTE]


Gibbs wasn't around Washington in 1979.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]The problem is they can afford to stack the line and move the safteys up..we wont throw the ball downfield...and we are lucky to even throw it short in the 4th qtr..the o-line is fine ..no deep passes is what has been the running games problem all season.. until we make them respect and protect the long pass teams will stack the line[/QUOTE]


I agree Rail, but it doesn't end there I watch Portis mis the holes to much for my liking, not all the time, but I see him running into the backs of our linemen when theres a hole right there and by the time he restarts and hits it the defense has closed in on him, I also think he has to drop his weight back down, he's better suited for speed, and quickness, not power as I believe he's trying to become.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

One of the major problems with the running game is that the plays are telegraphed from their infancy. When we line up in running formation with a blocker in front of Portis be it Sellers, a tight-end, or Cooley, if you watch the nearest deep back he will usually lead you to the point of attack even with the man in motion. This is the same type offense Gibbs ran with the Hogs and Riggins. Defenses' knew what was coming but they still couldn't stop it. However Riggins is a Hall of Famer and Portis is nothing near that. Coaches have had thirteen years to figure out what Gibbs was doing to them and it's not happening the same way this time around. We have no Riggins, we have no Hogs, so Joe is going to have to change his style of attack if the running game is going to succeed in those crutial times in a game when it's really needed. If you watch closely the defenses' reaction on most of our running plays, you can witness them moving into position to make a play at what they anticipate is going to be the point of attack. Diversity is a must.

IN GIBBS WE TRUST



but they couldn't stop it because our line at that time was unlioke any other in the league at that time

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=Longtimefan]One of the major problems with the running game is that the plays are telegraphed from their infancy. When we line up in running formation with a blocker in front of Portis be it Sellers, a tight-end, or Cooley, if you watch the nearest deep back he will usually lead you to the point of attack even with the man in motion. This is the same type offense Gibbs ran with the Hogs and Riggins. Defenses' knew what was coming but they still couldn't stop it. However Riggins is a Hall of Famer and Portis is nothing near that. Coaches have had thirteen years to figure out what Gibbs was doing to them and it's not happening the same way this time around. We have no Riggins, we have no Hogs, so Joe is going to have to change his style of attack if the running game is going to succeed in those crutial times in a game when it's really needed. If you watch closely the defenses' reaction on most of our running plays, you can witness them moving into position to make a play at what they anticipate is going to be the point of attack. Diversity is a must.

IN GIBBS WE TRUST



but they couldn't stop it because our line at that time was unlioke any other in the league at that time[/QUOTE]


You are absolutely correct, and I had intended to make that a part of my original post.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=Longtimefan]You are absolutely correct, and I had intended to make that a part of my original post.[/QUOTE]
You like to comment on your own post? :confused- :confused- :confused- :confused:

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=Redskins8588]You like to comment on your own post? :confused- :confused- :confused- :confused:[/QUOTE]



That was not my coment Redskins 8588. Obviously someone posted and didn't take their credit.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Good point, LT is running behind the best run-blocking FB (Lorenzo Neal) in the league. Only KC's Tony Richardson is in the same "league" as Neal.[/QUOTE]

I'd add Mack Strong of the Seahawks to that list....and what a perfect name for a fullback

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]I'd add Mack Strong of the Seahawks to that list....and what a perfect name for a fullback[/QUOTE]
and dan kreider on the steelers

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=Stacks42]im not saying they are better they are def back ups, but they seem to find holes where Portis cannot. Portis runs for 3 yds/carry, Cartwright gets in there and runs for 13 for a TD, whens that last time you saw portis do that? Im saying when they get their shots they move the ball, throw Nemo in there. I dont care how much we spent on Portis if someone else can do the job then let em, hes not doing it[/QUOTE]

portis got the 8 yard TD against the eagles among other things and his average is 4.2 last i checked. rock has less than 100yards on the year.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

I was watching an old VHS copy of the 88 NFC championship and Superbowl haha. One day I won't have to live in the past! Any way, its funny how similar our offense is to that one. Someone earlier said that they knew what was coming back then, just no one could stop it...I agree, but I think it was all the o line. Our running backs that year were George Rogers, Timmy Smith, and Kelvin Bryant...none of which are hall of famers. They just had a steam roller in front of them, so they could chip off 5 or 6 yards every time. It was the same frustrating offense as now...it just worked! Run, run, pass...run, run, pass...with a few shots downfield every now and then but mostly dink and dunk passes. Madden and Summerall even knew the name to the Skins' running packages-"heavy" if that says how obvious it was. They knew about the counter-tre just like they do now. Great pass blocking too...Williams didn't get sacked too often. I tell you though, even though the offensive line was great...what I wouldn't give to have Dave Butz, Dexter Manly, Monty Coleman, and Charles Mann again!

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

He did well in Denver behind a Pro-Bowl Line.....but hey, lets blame him....just because it easier and he took all that money.........Shame on you Clinton, Shame on you :yeahright

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

i guy that runs for 1500 yards in back to back seasons doesnt come east and all of a sudden forget how to run the football.this is a ridiculous thread.i love the skins but the problem is 2 fold.our line is not as good as denvers,and sometimes our play calling leaves alot to be desired

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]Many of you know I've been critical of Clinton Portis. But for a moment, let's put that aside and discuss another issue. Read this excerpt from the WP:

[font=Times New Roman]"Portis was an integral part of the Redskins' running game last Sunday against San Diego's top-rated rush defense, with Coach Joe Gibbs calling 13 running plays in the final quarter with his team leading by 10 points. But Portis gained only 36 yards on those carries and was held to a yard or less on five carries, getting stopped for no gain on his final two rushes.

The problem was worse on third down. Portis's seven fourth-quarter carries on second or third down picked up a total of 13 yards (1.8 per carry), with Washington unable to capitalize on first-down gains. Portis is averaging just 3.7 yards per carry in the fourth quarter overall this season -- the NFL average is 4.1 -- and over the last three games he has gained only 57 yards on 18 carries in the fourth quarter (3.2 per carry), and has just 10 carries for 27 yards on third downs this season, well off his 2005 average of 4.2 per carry."[/font]

***

OK, if Portis isn't the problem as many have argued, then what is the problem? Is it the offensive line? If so, who's the weak link? We've always said it's Derrick Dockery, but this is a pattern that's starting to point at more than just one player. Rabach's holding penalties certainly don't help. But why is it that an offensive line made up of names like Samuels, Jansen and Thomas isn't consistently paving the way when the team needs it most? Could a mammoth run blocking tight end like Ron Middleton make a difference?[/QUOTE]



A better blocking TE could make a little difference, but the biggest problem with the carries in the fourth quarter is when we have the lead later in the game, we start playing the clock. That's supposed to be how you play smashmouth football, but unfortunately portis isn't quite the bruiser that'll carry 4 guys for 3 yards when he crosses the line. If he gets wrapped up right away, he doesn't power foreward with guys hanging on him.

Knowing this should be a detriment to playing that type of football to try to hang on to a late lead (especially one of only 10 points). You should play to win and play to score points. I'd have been happier if they would've taken a couple of shots down the field and stopped the clock, than the way it was handled, but despite everything thats going on (even though we're not exactly a playoff caliber team... we're moving in the right direction, and I think with a little continuity we'll get there in a couple of years.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

I think portis and the line dont have the timing down. He seems to hestitate before hitting the gaps now. I know last year they said he was hitting the holes to quick. The other thing is he likes to dive at the end of runs, he dives to the ground before getting tackled. Its deff not just him he had great seasons in Denver.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25]i guy that runs for 1500 yards in back to back seasons doesnt come east and all of a sudden forget how to run the football.this is a ridiculous thread.i love the skins but the problem is 2 fold.our line is not as good as denvers,and sometimes our play calling leaves alot to be desired[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with that entire post. :biggthump

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

Unfortunately, us Redskins fans seem ready to throw anyone and everyone (including Gibbs and Portis) on this team under the bus. Thank God we won this game.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

the problem isn't the players imo, it's the timing and execution. You can have a line of all pro's, and the best back in the world, but if they don't execute it amounts to naught.

Re: Is it Portis or the Offensive line?
 

good post mooby