Problems at the core
 

Great read and some interesting insight on Lloyd. By reading this you really have to believe he's not coming back.

[B][url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/31/AR2006123101079_5.html]Problems at the Core - washingtonpost.com[/url][/B]

Re: Problems at the core
 

pretty damning. we can't afford to pay 8$mill to release lloyd and 8$mill to release archuleta though :/.

Re: Problems at the core
 

at this point I'm not so sure I wouldn't rather keep Archuletta. Lloyd is a cancer in the clubhouse, whereas Archuletta is more like Chicken Pox or something.

Re: Problems at the core
 

<Sigh> I hope there is SOME good news at the end of this tunnel, but, other than Campbell, I don't know what it could be.

It's going to be a long off-season.

Re: Problems at the core
 

[quote=That Guy;265707]pretty damning. we can't afford to pay 8$mill to release Lloyd and 8$mill to release archuleta though :/.[/quote]
welcome back. and i think Lloyd can make some plays if given the opportunity. A.A. just plain stinks

Re: Problems at the core
 

I think that they have no choice but to give Llyod 1 more year. They cut AA this year and Llyod next year if he continues being an idiot.

The good news is that the defense has no where to go but up and we might not have enough money to sign to many free agents. Sign one or two defensive starters, draft one, and then try to find some low cost, quality depth.

In Gibbs defense, it looks lke the skins may have done a good job finding low cost, quality depth on the o-line. The times we did see subs at center and tackle, they did fine.

Re: Problems at the core
 

It's really unfortunate the way Lloyd responded to Saunders....talk to the quarterback!? What a bitch, seriously! His ass needs to go, no ifs ands or buts about it.

If Gibbs wants to continue to defend his decision making process, then so be it. But if you live by the sword, you die by the sword.

Re: Problems at the core
 

Wow. Last year's moves not only hurt this season, they hurt next season because of the draft picks we gave up. I hope we keep our No. 1 pick this year - which will be the 6th overall.

Re: Problems at the core
 

[quote=Twilbert07;265736]Wow. Last year's moves not only hurt this season, they hurt next season because of the draft picks we gave up. I hope we keep our No. 1 pick this year - which will be the 6th overall.[/quote]


Seriously, Twilbert...and I really hate to be so cynical, what are the chances of this first round pick, whomever his is, making an impact on the team?

Chances are if he's a defensive player, GW will string him along throughout the season until the sixth or seventh game and say he's learning the system. Just business as usual with the Redskins.

Re: Problems at the core
 

Good read. To the Duckett issue though, it's hard to argue with Gibbs' concern about Betts staying healthy and Rock holding on to the ball.. That said though, I think he may have forgotten to consider Sellers.

Re: Problems at the core
 

[quote=12thMan;265739]Seriously, Twilbert...and I really hate to be so cynical, what are the chances of this first round pick, whomever his is, making an impact on the team?

Chances are if he's a defensive player, GW will string him along throughout the season until the sixth or seventh game and say he's learning the system. Just business as usual with the Redskins.[/quote]

They do pretty well with the top picks (because these are usually no brainers).

Rogers and Taylor played pretty early for Williams. I am guessing that they pick the best defensive lineman available and if the player struggles to pick up the defense for whatever reason you can still turn them loose on passing downs.

This defense was a joke. They will find a spot for a #5 pick.

Re: Problems at the core
 

Here's another interesting comparison between the TE we signed and the one we let go.

Christian Fauria 2 catches for 17 yds. 8.1 yd avg. 0 tds.

Robert Royal 23 catches for 233 yds. 10.1 yd. avg. 3 tds.

Re: Problems at the core
 

[quote=Grim21Reaper;265750]They do pretty well with the top picks (because these are usually no brainers).

Rogers and Taylor played pretty early for Williams. I am guessing that they pick the best defensive lineman available and if the player struggles to pick up the defense for whatever reason you can still turn them loose on passing downs.

This defense was a joke. They will find a spot for a #5 pick.[/quote]

Like I said, I was being a bit cynical and bitter about things. I hope we can get our hands on DE from Michigan.

Keep your eye on him during the Rose Bowl.

Re: Problems at the core
 

Ouch. This might not be a quick fix here guys. Get ready though this will be an interesting offseason.

We've all said it before, the FO does things that doesn't exactly seem "fair" to players of the skins. It's unfortunate, but hopefully Gibbs and the FO have learned a little from our mistakes.

Re: Problems at the core
 

I think the article further illustrates just how important is is for us to have a skilled personnel manager, GM (if you will) to evaluate, and choose players. A lengthly article, and throughtout I get the feeling that's the most important point trying to be made.

Re: Problems at the core
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;265716]at this point I'm not so sure I wouldn't rather keep Archuletta. Lloyd is a cancer in the clubhouse, whereas Archuletta is more like Chicken Pox or something.[/QUOTE]

I said this before in another thread, and I'll say it here...winning is the cure of all ailments. If we win next year, no one will be whining or complaining. Lloyd is frustrated with his lack of play and no coincidence lack of wins. You have to put yourself in his shoes. I don't agree with his whining, but if you believe you're a great player, and you are not being used and you lose every game, wouldn't you make the conclusion that you are losing because you're not being utilyzed? Losing shuts everyone up. Before we pull the trigger on everyone, let's let the emotions subside and see what we have and what we can work with next year.

Re: Problems at the core
 

I have been an apologist for our personell aquisition startegy for a long time but it is clear to me that while I think the basic approach can work this front office is not even executing the approach properly. I got no answers for this.

Re: Problems at the core
 

And people wonder why I hate Lloyd with such a burning passion.

Re: Problems at the core
 

[QUOTE=Longtimefan;265799]I think the article further illustrates just how important is is for us to have a skilled personnel manager, GM (if you will) to evaluate, and choose players. A lengthly article, and throughtout I get the feeling that's the most important point trying to be made.[/QUOTE]


hey everybody...I know I'm kind of new here but I have to agree though...until Dan Snyder gets the h*ll out of the way and fires his favorite yes-man Vinny Cerrato we wil not see a turn around for a really long time...I just hate seeing Gibb's reputation tarnished the way it is...kind-of like seeing Johnny Unitas in a the Charger uniform it almost makes me want to cry. :(

Re: Problems at the core
 

It seems like this past offseason Gibbs forgot what he was preaching about. He wasn't going to sign Smoot for more money than Springs made, etc. They thought AP was asking for too much $ and they let him go.

Now last offseason, they just forgot all about being frugal, not rocking the boat. We again, overpaid for outside players that are not our core guys.

I didn't understand why they did those things when they did them and now it's come back to bite us.

I really think something in the FO structure has to change or the people in the FO need to have a meeting and agree on a philosophy. No more boneheaded moves.

Re: Problems at the core
 

This just proves (again) my thinking that the way our FO handles its players on the whole is callous and abrasive, and that long-term, that approach is not going to do us any favors.

Unlike Lloyd, when Arch arrived, he arrived as a player with a decent reputation as a hard-working player, good defender (in the right system) and a veteran who was looking forward to helping to lead this defense. It should be clear now that we aren't the only ones who noticed how this team gave up on and discarded a player, effectively scapegoating him for the entire defense's collapse. You think every one of the guys playing on defense isn't wondering whether they might be the next casualty of the cut-and-run coaching philosophy?

If GGrilliamss is such a good coach, he can make things work with Arch, but the real question is if anyone's going to make him check his ego and hold him accountable for working with what he's got. After all, he personally shopped for and selected Archuleta, and basically gulag'ed him when things didn't work out the way he wanted them.

Lloyd should be basically put on probation at the start of next season and told to shape up or he'll sit and rot on the bench like Philly did to T.O. Blaming a young QB who needs all the help he can get from his receivers (and by the way, the guy who will decide whether or not to throw your way when you bother to run your routes correctly), and shouting at the WR's coach? That's just inexcusable. He needs to realize that the paycheck he gets here may be his last if he doesn't commit himself to being a professional.

Great article by JLC. I'm starting to feel sorry for Jason Campbell now. I almost wish he had gone to a less dysfunctional team.

Re: Problems at the core
 

[quote=squrrelco3;265827]hey everybody...I know I'm kind of new here but I have to agree though...until Dan Snyder gets the h*ll out of the way and fires his favorite yes-man Vinny Cerrato we wil not see a turn around for a really long time...I just hate seeing Gibb's reputation tarnished the way it is...kind-of like seeing Johnny Unitas in a the Charger uniform it almost makes me want to cry. :([/quote]

Agree on this "structure." Vinny C has been a constant here along w/ our less than mediocre organization. He's got to go imo.

Re: Problems at the core
 

In my experience, when ego and failure to succeed clash, it's rare for the ego to defer to what's needed to succeed. Because, of course, the ego believes that the reason for failure can't possibly be himself / herself.

I believe Joe will really do whatever he thinks he can / is needed to turn this team around next season. Unfortunately, I think too many of the problems reside in places that even St. Joe can't wield power.

Re: Problems at the core
 

[QUOTE=squrrelco3;265827]hey everybody...I know I'm kind of new here but I have to agree though...until Dan Snyder gets the h*ll out of the way and fires his favorite yes-man Vinny Cerrato we wil not see a turn around for a really long time...I just hate seeing Gibb's reputation tarnished the way it is...kind-of like seeing Johnny Unitas in a the Charger uniform it almost makes me want to cry. :([/QUOTE]


Speaking of Johnny U. He only wanted $100,000 to stay in Baltimore. One of the greatest QB's in NFL history seeking such a paltry sum (by today's standards), seeing what QB's with a fraction of his talent make now, I'm sure makes him want to cry as well.

Re: Problems at the core
 

[quote=redsk1;265830]Agree on this "structure." Vinny C has been a constant here along w/ our less than mediocre organization. He's got to go imo.[/quote]

Absolutely...you guys should see the posts on the WP website in response to this article...those people are frightfully vicious at blaming Gibbs...now I'll be the first to say that he's not 100% perfect and he does bear some responsibility..but ever since 1997 when he bought the team, Synder and Vinny have been the one constant...everyone in the NFL knows Vinny is Godawful at evaluating talent and Snyder isn't much better but his own ego won't let him get out of the way.

Re: Problems at the core
 

i heard that carlos rodgers is going to workout with darrell green and deion sanders.

Re: Problems at the core
 

link confirming this is where?

Re: Problems at the core
 

[QUOTE=dall-assblows;265835]i heard that carlos rodgers is going to workout with darrell green and deion sanders.[/QUOTE]



He said so himself in an interview on Sunday.

Re: Problems at the core
 

[quote=squrrelco3;265834]Absolutely...you guys should see the posts on the WP website in response to this article...those people are frightfully vicious at blaming Gibbs...now I'll be the first to say that he's not 100% perfect and he does bear some responsibility..but ever since 1997 when he bought the team, Synder and Vinny have been the one constant...everyone in the NFL knows Vinny is Godawful at evaluating talent and Snyder isn't much better but his own ego won't let him get out of the way.[/quote]

I'm certainly no fan of Snyder or Cerrato but Lloyd isn't on this team unless Joe Gibbs wants him on this team. Yet another example of why we need a strong GM who can act independently of Gibbs. Most of the great players from Gibbs I were sniffed out by others (Beathard, Casserly, etc). There's really never been any reason to think Gibbs is especially adept at being the Redskins' top personel guy and this year's disappointment proves it.

Gibbs II = 21-27. All the rest is just conversation.

Re: Problems at the core
 

[quote=12thMan;265735]It's really unfortunate the way Lloyd responded to Saunders....talk to the quarterback!? What a bitch, seriously! His ass needs to go, no ifs ands or buts about it.

If Gibbs wants to continue to defend his decision making process, then so be it. But if you live by the sword, you die by the sword.[/quote]

I agree 100%. His ass needs to go ASAP and I don't care about the cap ramifications. Use a late round draft pick on a 6'4 possesion WR who can play teams. Do these guys in the FO do any homework at all? A year or two ago I was reading a fantasy football magazine and the writers were just killing LLoyd and Barlow. Saying how they were just bad locker room guys in SF. This signing is as bad as AA.

Re: Problems at the core
 

This organization is riddled with problems from top to bottom. Everyone is at fault from Danny & Gibbs down to the players. The sad fact is this organization is closer to being the Cards than it is to being a top NFL franchise.

Re: Problems at the core
 

OK, we suck. I thought this quote was funny, though:
[QUOTE]The general manger who disliked Lloyd didn't want Duckett either, calling him "a fat, underachieving running back."[/QUOTE]

Re: Problems at the core
 

[quote=irish;265869]This organization is riddled with problems from top to bottom. Everyone is at fault from Danny & Gibbs down to the players. The sad fact is this organization is closer to being the Cards than it is to being a top NFL franchise.[/quote]


[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Amen. Every year its the same story.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I think that if the 2007 Redskins do not make the playoffs, Joe Gibbs and his entire staff should be fired. The fifth year of his contract can be bought out- there’s no point in enduring this debacle past next season. At that point a GM would be brought in, the organization would be restructured before a new coach is hired, and we can start over yet again.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I have nothing but respect and admiration for Gibbs and what he's meant to this franchise, but that sort of sentiment is beside the point. At some point its got to stop mattering what you did 20 years ago. It doesn’t matter that you’re one of the most decent men the game has ever known, or that your players “fight their guts out”, or that many observers are willing to concede you’re still a great coach despite a growing body of evidence to the contrary.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]At some point you either need to win, or shut up and go away. One more season like this and we will have reached that point.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Joe Gibbs is now three full seasons into his comeback and, with the exception of a brief, sudden surge near the end on 2005 that helped the team snag a wild card slot in the playoffs, Gibbs II has been one big fat disappointment. Come on, be honest- if, on the day of Gibbs’s return, someone had walked up to you and said that in three years Gibbs’s team would be no better off than Steve Spurrier’s second and final edition (5-11) you’d have laughed in their face. But that’s exactly what’s happened. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Yes, Gibbs did have the Redskins in the playoffs last year, but in retrospect that’s looking more and more like an anomaly- a plucky 5-6 team in a weak division that got hot for a month or so. Sure, it was nostalgic watching the way the running game carried the Skins down the stretch, but in retrospect was last year’s team really [I]that[/I] good? Outside of the aforementioned 5 game winning streak, Washington is a flat-out sorry 16-27 the last three years. In addition to that one playoff appearance, they have two finishes in the division basement. If you’re still a believer, the last five weeks of the 2005 season make for a mighty flimsy hook to be hanging your hopes on.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]One more year.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Re: Problems at the core
 

[quote=squrrelco3;265834]Absolutely...you guys should see the posts on the WP website in response to this article...those people are frightfully vicious at blaming Gibbs...now I'll be the first to say that he's not 100% perfect and he does bear some responsibility..but ever since 1997 when he bought the team, Synder and Vinny have been the one constant...everyone in the NFL knows Vinny is Godawful at evaluating talent and Snyder isn't much better but his own ego won't let him get out of the way.[/quote]
Gibbs is President and has final say on all football operations, even over Snyder. I feel that the fanbase lets Gibbs off the hook too easily and makes Snyder a convenient scapegoat. The Danny only asks Gibbs for a list of players he needs, then closes the deal. Let's not delude ourselves - Gibbs deserves most of the blame for this disaster of a season.

Re: Problems at the core
 

Okay, so you want to discount what Gibbs has done here on his return and say that the end of last year was a fluke. I guess they were also lucky last year that they were in almost all the games. The only ones they lost by more than 7 points were the blowout in NY and the final loss to Seattle in the playoffs. In addition, the Redskins had one of the two hardest schedules in the NFL last year. (The Chargers were the other team near us in this statistic.)
This year Springs was out a lot and Prioleau was out the whole year. This killed us, since Williams's defense is predicated on being able to pressure the QB, but we couldn't afford to blitz since we didn't have any cornerbacks. If we pick up Clements we may be OK. (I don't know how good he is, I just know he's the best one available.) Rogers seems to play OK when he doesn't play frightened. Let's hope they can get this turned around next year.

Re: Problems at the core
 

[quote=mike340;265943]Okay, so you want to discount what Gibbs has done here on his return and say that the end of last year was a fluke. I guess they were also lucky last year that they were in almost all the games. The only ones they lost by more than 7 points were the blowout in NY and the final loss to Seattle in the playoffs. In addition, the Redskins had one of the two hardest schedules in the NFL last year. (The Chargers were the other team near us in this statistic.)
This year Springs was out a lot and Prioleau was out the whole year. This killed us, since Williams's defense is predicated on being able to pressure the QB, but we couldn't afford to blitz since we didn't have any cornerbacks. If we pick up Clements we may be OK. (I don't know how good he is, I just know he's the best one available.) Rogers seems to play OK when he doesn't play frightened. Let's hope they can get this turned around next year.[/quote]

Close games and tough schedules don't matter. Wins are the only thing that counts.

I don't think anyone wants to "discount what Gibbs has done here on his return"- the fact is, what he's "done" is go 21-27 with one playoff appearance and two losing seasons in three years.

Your arguement about the defense definately has some merit but can't explain away a 5-11 record. Yes, those loses hurt, but every team suffers injuries, and good teams find a way to adapt and overcome them. Springs and Prioleau are good players but a lot of people (not necessarily you) are trying to turn them into the second coming of Darrell Green and Kenny Houston and it's just not so.

As I said earlier, I've got no problem with giving Gibbs II a fourth year, but if we sit through another disappointing season in 2007 does anyone really want to see a fifth?

Re: Problems at the core
 

"• Redskins WR Santana Moss said he and QB Jason Campbell expect to spend a lot of one-on-one time together in the offseason on their own, working on developing a rapport in the passing game that wasn't always there after Campbell took over the starting job."

This is what all of our skilled players or atleast all of our WR's need to do. Hell I would love it if Espy, ARE, and Patten joined in also. That would help our offense alot next year. Oh and throw Cooley in there too...

Re: Problems at the core
 

Speaking of Patten, if he can stay healthy, I hope he stays. I can see Campbell getting him the ball more than Brunell ever did.

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[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;266279]Speaking of Patten, if he can stay healthy, I hope he stays. I can see Campbell getting him the ball more than Brunell ever did.[/QUOTE]

Patten is arguably my favorite receiver on the team (yeah I don't know why either) but I sure don't know why we threw to him twice at the end of the game Saturday night.

Re: Problems at the core
 

why doesnt he play more? is it strictly a numbers thing? he probably will be back. doesnt he have a low salary?