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-   -   3-4 vs. 4-3 (http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=64449)

sdskinsfan2001 09-16-2019 01:40 PM

3-4 vs. 4-3
 
I know we run multiple fronts, but our "base" is 3-4.

Feels like we've always been trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

I would really prefer our base was a 4-3.

DE - Sweat, Kerrigan
DT - Bama Boys (with great rotation with Matty and Settle)
OLB - Dion Hamilton or Harvey-Clemons, Holcomb
MLB - Bostic (Hamilton could play here too)

I think our talent fits this better and it would keep our DTs so much fresher throughout the game.

skinsfaninok 09-16-2019 01:44 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
With our personnel we are better fit for 4-3 and on the back end as well. Most 4-3 teams run QTRS coverage which is Cover 4, that is for teams that lack the speed in the secondary as each player is responsible for 1/4 of the field.. We are running Cover 3 and praying Montae can cover the space... Another inept coaching decision

calia 09-16-2019 01:50 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
Even if this is accurate (and I don't profess to know enough about football to have a strong opinion), is it realistic to expect the team to switch in season? Is that done (successfully or otherwise)?

sdskinsfan2001 09-16-2019 01:51 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=skinsfaninok;1230421]With our personnel we are better fit for 4-3 and on the back end as well. Most 4-3 teams run QTRS coverage which is Cover 4, that is for teams that lack the speed in the secondary as each player is responsible for 1/4 of the field.. We are running Cover 3 and praying Montae can cover the space... Another inept coaching decision[/quote]

Nicholson - Fast, zero discipline
Apke - Fast, not very good
Moreau - Fast and injured

Speed is definitely a concern. Even with the speed guys we have, we have issues.

sdskinsfan2001 09-16-2019 01:54 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=calia;1230423]Even if this is accurate (and I don't profess to know enough about football to have a strong opinion), is it realistic to expect the team to switch in season? Is that done (successfully or otherwise)?[/quote]

With our coaching staff? They can't seem to coach any scheme lol. But we run some 4-3 already, so in theory, it should be doable.

VTSkins1961 09-16-2019 02:01 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
should have never tried the 3-4 in my opinion. Hasn't worked out well for us at all. I prefer 4-3 and seeing that we run it sometimes, as stated earlier, it should be doable

skinsfaninok 09-16-2019 02:05 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=calia;1230423]Even if this is accurate (and I don't profess to know enough about football to have a strong opinion), is it realistic to expect the team to switch in season? Is that done (successfully or otherwise)?[/quote]

That is hard to do in the season, i'm sure its possible since they are all pro athletes but I doubt the team would even try it

sdskinsfan2001 09-16-2019 02:09 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=skinsfaninok;1230433]That is hard to do in the season, i'm sure its possible since they are all pro athletes but I doubt the team would even try it[/quote]

Manusky won't even try rushing 5 guys. I want our next HC to be a defensive minded coach. I actually want the Cowboys DC as our HC.

BaltimoreSkins 09-16-2019 02:10 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
There are very few 3-4s in college therefore the number of natural nose tackles are limited. To me going 4-3 makes more sense especially in a passing league.

skinsfaninok 09-16-2019 02:17 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1230435]Manusky won't even try rushing 5 guys. I want our next HC to be a defensive minded coach. I actually want the Cowboys DC as our HC.[/quote]

me too, said it last yr but will he come to this shit?

sdskinsfan2001 09-16-2019 02:23 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=skinsfaninok;1230437]me too, said it last yr but will he come to this shit?[/quote]

Pride and $$$, yeah, I think we can get just about any coordinator to be our HC. Only 32 jobs available, risky game to pass on any of them.

sandtrapjack 09-16-2019 02:30 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
More and more teams are using 11 personnel formations on offense. And that would dictate a nickel defense as a minimum to match up against that. I think I saw a stat that on Sundays Cowboys/Redskins game, that Dallas used 11 personnel on over 70% of their offense snaps.

sdskinsfan2001 09-16-2019 02:33 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
Not familiar with the term 11 personnel, but if 4-3 is your base, you can drop to a 4-2-5 if you want an extra guy to help defend the pass when the down and distance dictates it.

I mainly want a 4-3 because I think it fits Sweat, Kerrigan, and all our DTs better.

sandtrapjack 09-16-2019 02:36 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1230441]Not familiar with the term 11 personnel, but if 4-3 is your base, you can drop to a 4-2-5 if you want an extra guy to help defend the pass.

I mainly want a 4-3 because I think it fits Sweat, Kerrigan, and all our DTs better.[/quote]

11 personnel = 3WR, 1TE, 1RB

Base 3-4, strength is the LBs. Against 11 pers, would need to put more DBs, taking away some of the strength of the 3-4.

sdskinsfan2001 09-16-2019 02:41 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=sandtrapjack;1230442]11 personnel = 3WR, 1TE, 1RB

Base 3-4, strength is the LBs. Against 11 pers, would need to put more DBs, taking away some of the strength of the 3-4.[/quote]

Got it. Yeah, that seems to be the new normal. Would be interesting to know the league wide % of that group throughout the NFL thru 1st 2 weeks.

MTK 09-16-2019 02:48 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
One of the most overrated fan debates is the 34 vs 43

SunnySide 09-16-2019 02:56 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
I honestly dont put any stock in "3-4 v 4-3" because we, like the entire league, are in nickel the most. I dont think the coaches on the Skins care about a potential player fitting 3-4 or 4-3 either.

I do wonder if we somewhat misuse edge guys. Sweat, Preston Smith and (to a degree) Ryan Anderson should be hand in dirt players and not hybrid asked to cover the flat or RB out of the back field and definitely under no circumstances asked to cover the slot.

2018 we were in base 34% and nickel 63%.

"11" personnel has been the thing for a few years now. It spreads the ball out, you can get your slot guy covered by a LB sometimes, you can put guys in motion to see how the D shifts, can bring a defender from the LOS and open some run gashes.

Defensive Personnel Frequency
Team Base Rk NickelRk Dime+Rk
CLE 66% 1 31% 29 1% 27
LAR 58% 2 37% 25 2% 23
CAR 50% 3 49% 20 0% 32
IND 42% 4 44% 23 11% 14
DEN 41% 5 27% 32 30% 5
PIT 38% 6 36% 26 24% 7
HOU 38% 7 34% 28 24% 8
NYJ 37% 8 53% 18 8% 16
MIA 36% 9 60% 14 1% 25
SF 36% 10 45% 22 15% 10
TB 36% 11 62% 11 0% 30
OAK 35% 12 57% 16 7% 17
[B]WAS 34% 13 63% 10 2% 24[/B]
JAX 33% 14 66% 6 0% 29
BUF 33% 15 66% 5 0% 31
BAL 30% 16 40% 24 28% 6
Team Base Rk Nickel Rk Dime+ Rk
CHI 30% 17 64% 9 5% 20
CIN 30% 18 67% 4 1% 26
TEN 30% 19 64% 8 5% 19
DET 29% 20 52% 19 15% 11
NYG 29% 21 60% 15 11% 13
SEA 29% 22 68% 3 3% 21
KC 27% 23 29% 30 42% 3
ARI 27% 24 65% 7 7% 18
PHI 27% 25 60% 13 10% 15
LAC 26% 26 27% 31 46% 1
DAL 25% 27 55% 17 20% 9
ATL 24% 28 72% 2 2% 22
NO 23% 29 61% 12 13% 12
GB 23% 30 34% 27 42% 2
MIN 21% 31 77% 1 0% 28
NE 15% 32 48% 21 37% 4
Avg 33% -- 52% -- 13% --

I cant post links yet so I cut n pasted from football outsiders

edit - 2017 stats, NOT 2018 .. apologies

skinsfan69 09-16-2019 03:09 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
They've been running a lot of 4 man fronts where Sweat and Kerrigan are basically 4-3 ends w/ their hand in the dirt. I really didn't see too many base 3-4's yesterday. So to me it really isn't an issue. The issue is lack of coverage skills and a total lack of a pass rush.

skinsfan69 09-16-2019 03:13 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1230424]Nicholson - Fast, zero discipline
Apke - Fast, not very good
Moreau - Fast and injured

Speed is definitely a concern. Even with the speed guys we have, we have issues.[/quote]

It's pretty sad that they put in broken down old as dirt DRC over Apke. DRC was literally limping around the field. Apke must be a total bust.

SunnySide 09-16-2019 03:19 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=skinsfan69;1230452]It's pretty sad that they put in broken down old as dirt DRC over Apke. DRC was literally limping around the field. Apke must be a total bust.[/quote]

Apke at corner? Hes a project at safety projected to be out of the league in 3.3 years

sdskinsfan2001 09-16-2019 03:24 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=skinsfan69;1230452]It's pretty sad that they put in broken down old as dirt DRC over Apke. DRC was literally limping around the field. Apke must be a total bust.[/quote]

Apke was a 6th or 7th round flyer. Don't even blame him. He was never going to play up to the level he was picked at.

Went from thinking the defense would be a strength to realizing we're not even close yet and still need way more upgrades.

calia 09-16-2019 03:31 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
But for Miami’s “defense,” we’d be worst in the league. I know it has been only 2 games, but still....


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Kope 09-17-2019 08:51 AM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=MTK;1230445]One of the most overrated fan debates is the 34 vs 43[/quote]

This. In the NFL all teams are multiple front. Yes there is a base look, but the majority of the game is played in sub packages specific to the opponent that week.

A way to look at base is how the defense sets up an offense up; to provide tendencies and then break them.

EARTHQUAKE2689 09-17-2019 09:16 AM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1230454]Apke was a 6th or 7th round flyer. Don't even blame him. He was never going to play up to the level he was picked at.

Went from thinking the defense would be a strength to realizing we're not even close yet and still need way more upgrades.[/quote]

A good old 4th round pick wasted on him. He is great in Madden though lol

DYoungJelly 09-17-2019 08:48 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[QUOTE=MTK;1230445]One of the most overrated fan debates is the 34 vs 43[/QUOTE]What percentage of snaps are you comfortable with Kerrigan or Sweat dropping in coverage?

My answer is zero, none, never ever.

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DYoungJelly 09-17-2019 08:54 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
I would much rather be a single gap defense than a two gap.

When you see our D line at the snap they don't burst forward with their initial step. They extend their arms and read the play.

The cowboys d line crashed into our o line at the snap causing havoc and pressure.

We have talent but I don't think we use it correctly.

Even in Nickle, I don't think they are coached to burst like the cowboys are.

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sdskinsfan2001 01-02-2020 12:10 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
4-3!! Yes!!! I know MTK is with me. 😂😂😂

jamf 01-02-2020 01:35 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1230454]Apke was a 6th or 7th round flyer. Don't even blame him. He was never going to play up to the level he was picked at.

Went from thinking the defense would be a strength to realizing we're not even close yet and still need way more upgrades.[/quote]

Exactly! He's been a great pick for just his ST contributions alone. Is every draft pick expected to be a starter? He fills the role as secondary backup and special teams coverage ace. We got 2nd round picks as backups (anderson). Apke was drafted in the appropriate spot.

los panda 01-24-2020 02:00 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
Are Sweat and/or Young going to play DE or OLB?

Would the line look like this?
[B]DE[/B] Sweat, Young
[B]DT[/B] Allen, Ioannidis, or Payne (with one of them on bench in base 43?)

Or more like this?
[B]DE[/B] Allen, Ioannidis
[B]DT[/B] Payne, Settle (with Sweat and Young at OLB?)

Or something in between?

Chico23231 01-24-2020 02:42 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=los panda;1243524]Are Sweat and/or Young going to play DE or OLB?

Would the line look like this?
[B]DE[/B] Sweat, Young
[B]DT[/B] Allen, Ioannidis, or Payne (with one of them on bench in base 43?)

Or more like this?
[B]DE[/B] Allen, Ioannidis
[B]DT[/B] Payne, Settle (with Sweat and Young at OLB?)

Or something in between?[/quote]

Its a good question, but what it can be is many things based on situation and packages. Based on down and distance and game plan it will give us the flexibility to match up better with the opposing offense. At the least it gives us a good rotation. You could go heavy removing a LB adding a lineman against a power run team...against a pass heavy team we could go less Payne more Matty I. Its a good problem to have and our D-line and its depth is a major strength with Chase Young there.

Meks 01-24-2020 02:44 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
with a fresh coordinator and scheme and a much better defensive mind this roster should crush it.

JoLo 01-24-2020 03:50 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[QUOTE=los panda;1243524]Are Sweat and/or Young going to play DE or OLB?



Would the line look like this?

[B]DE[/B] Sweat, Young

[B]DT[/B] Allen, Ioannidis, or Payne (with one of them on bench in base 43?)



Or more like this?

[B]DE[/B] Allen, Ioannidis

[B]DT[/B] Payne, Settle (with Sweat and Young at OLB?)



Or something in between?[/QUOTE]



I think the answer is simple. They’ll be defensive ends primarily. Del rio will have them with their hands in the dirt in every situation possible. He already made comments about guys who are best going after the qb need to be doing that as much as possible

Defensewins 01-24-2020 03:52 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=los panda;1243524]Are Sweat and/or Young going to play DE or OLB?

Would the line look like this?
[B]DE[/B] Sweat, Young
[B]DT[/B] Allen, Ioannidis, or Payne (with one of them on bench in base 43?)

Or more like this?
[B]DE[/B] Allen, Ioannidis
[B]DT[/B] Payne, Settle (with Sweat and Young at OLB?)

Or something in between?[/quote]

Rotation, situational substitution, resting players and keeping them fresh. Yes, yes, yes. For example I do not want Sweat on the field on an obvious run play. But a pass play he needs to be in there. With all of the talent we have and if we add Young and keep Kerrigan, this front seven will be much improved.
But the greatest room for improvement and will hopefully be most notable on the field is what Meks is saying, we FINALLY have a defensive coaching staff that knows what they are doing. Our coaches have been so bad for so long.

SFREDSKIN 01-25-2020 12:24 AM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
Sweat, Young at DE, Kerrigan (for the right price) McKinzy

Payne, Settle inside or Allen, Ionnadis, any combo would do, serious fucking talent and beef here.

LB’s Holcomb, Anderson (move him inside) Foster when recovers, SDH, Bostic if he stays.

This group with Del Rio could be as effective, if not more dominant than SF. They’ve underachieve and it’s time to kick some serious ass.

Get Chase!!

AnonEmouse 01-25-2020 09:14 AM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=SFREDSKIN;1243539]Sweat, Young at DE, Kerrigan (for the right price) McKinzy

Payne, Settle inside or Allen, Ionnadis, any combo would do, serious fucking talent and beef here.

LB’s Holcomb, Anderson (move him inside) Foster when recovers, SDH, Bostic if he stays.

This group with Del Rio could be as effective, if not more dominant than SF. They’ve underachieve and it’s time to kick some serious ass.

Get Chase!![/quote]

+1

Also means that barring BPA being an LB, we can spend a pick or 2 on the secondary and still have picks for the OL and TE. Or better still, go after a good S and/or CB (Jones?) in FA and spend the rest on O/BPA.

calia 01-25-2020 11:54 AM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[QUOTE=AnonEmouse;1243542]+1



Also means that barring BPA being an LB, we can spend a pick or 2 on the secondary and still have picks for the OL and TE. Or better still, go after a good S and/or CB (Jones?) in FA and spend the rest on O/BPA.[/QUOTE]



Improving the FS spot will be key too. With fewer LBs in coverage, the importance of someone at the S position with range is higher and that’s a big need.


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EARTHQUAKE2689 01-25-2020 12:30 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=los panda;1243524]Are Sweat and/or Young going to play DE or OLB?

Would the line look like this?
[B]DE[/B] Sweat, Young
[B]DT[/B] Allen, Ioannidis, or Payne (with one of them on bench in base 43?)

Or more like this?
[B]DE[/B] Allen, Ioannidis
[B]DT[/B] Payne, Settle (with Sweat and Young at OLB?)

Or something in between?[/quote]

Sweat and Young at DE
Payne, Allen, Ionnadis, and Settle at DT

Kerrigan at DE too but we will see what we do with him

Bishop Hammer 02-29-2020 03:23 PM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
This is a great breakdown of the 4-3 defense.
[url]https://youtu.be/DnjySDZJLlc[/url]

[url]https://youtu.be/lbIX-Exm1xQ[/url]

For the longest time I didn't know what 0,1, 2, 3, etc, etc tech and A, B, C, etc gap meant. Thanks to this video I now have some idea. Plus the creator is a legit Skins fan so that's morw reason to show the content and it's creator some love.

SunnySide 03-02-2020 11:25 AM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=Meks;1243526]with a fresh coordinator and scheme and a much better defensive mind this roster should crush it.[/quote]

Maybe im in a debbie downer mood ... but im starting to think Payne and Allen are just really good players and not great not elite. I really like them but we did spend 2 1st R on them (passed up on Derwin James) and when it comes to contract talks ... are we going to have to pay these "really good" players elite type money in a year or two?

Chico23231 03-02-2020 11:30 AM

Re: 3-4 vs. 4-3
 
[quote=SunnySide;1245714]Maybe im in a debbie downer mood ... but im starting to think Payne and Allen are just really good players and not great not elite. I really like them but we did spend 2 1st R on them (passed up on Derwin James) and when it comes to contract talks ... are we going to have to pay these "really good" players elite type money in a year or two?[/quote]

Gotta reset opinions now that they are with a competent DC. I think Payne played pretty damn well last year. Eager to see him as a 4-3 DT than the nose.


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