NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

So here's something new, Steve Wyche of the NFL Network is reporting that Zorn will likely survive the regular season ([url=http://www.nfl.com/videos/kansas-city-chiefs/09000d5d81375b19/Wyche-discusses-Zorn-s-future]NFL Videos: Wyche discusses Zorn's future[/url]) mostly because of a lack of suitable person in house to take over duties.

He also says Samuels likely out all season and opponents who have broken down tape say our offensive woes are largely attributable to a bad roster/scheme fit.

I wonder if the bye week would be too early for Snyder to tell Zorn he's not coming back in '10 regardless or if he'd wait until late/after the season to do so.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=Paintrain;609547]So here's something new, Steve Wyche of the NFL Network is reporting that Zorn will likely survive the regular season ([URL="http://www.nfl.com/videos/kansas-city-chiefs/09000d5d81375b19/Wyche-discusses-Zorn-s-future"]NFL Videos: Wyche discusses Zorn's future[/URL]) mostly because of a lack of suitable person in house to take over duties.

He also says Samuels likely out all season and opponents who have broken down tape say our offensive woes are largely attributable to a bad roster/scheme fit.

I wonder if the bye week would be too early for Snyder to tell Zorn he's not coming back in '10 regardless or if he'd wait until late/after the season to do so.[/quote]

I hope Zorn leaves ASAP! And as far as our 'Roster" or "Scheme" goes, that's obvious to see, JC is a BACKUP qb at best and our WR's don't fit a WC system, you need dependable players to actually catch everything that comes their way, and a Quick release from the QB, JC may have one of the slowest in the league. I loved what Riggo said about Zorn lol

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/10/16/riggins-lacerates-snyder-zorn-cerrato-again/]Riggins lacerates Snyder, Zorn, Cerrato. Again. | ProFootballTalk.com[/url]

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

Interesting. I agree the team was built for Gibbs offense and Zorn is trying to make it work with the WCO. I think Zorn needs to make a few adjustments, (Blocking Schemes, etc.), but he still may be able to make this work. Obviously we need new personell but it's a little late for that right now. I wonder if this will be followed by more, "Zorn will last the season" articles?

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=Paintrain;609547]So here's something new, Steve Wyche of the NFL Network is reporting that Zorn will likely survive the regular season ([URL="http://www.nfl.com/videos/kansas-city-chiefs/09000d5d81375b19/Wyche-discusses-Zorn-s-future"]NFL Videos: Wyche discusses Zorn's future[/URL]) mostly because of a lack of suitable person in house to take over duties.

He also says Samuels likely out all season and opponents who have broken down tape say our offensive woes are largely attributable to a bad roster/scheme fit.

I wonder if the bye week would be too early for Snyder to tell Zorn he's not coming back in '10 regardless or if he'd wait until late/after the season to do so.[/quote]

Not to sound like a broken record but it's not Zorn's fault that he is versed in the WCO. Every pratfall this team has suffered has just been reflected on the front office.

It's so indictable that I don't see how there's not an outright perpetual protest in front of Redskins Park.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=Paintrain;609547]So here's something new, Steve Wyche of the NFL Network is reporting that Zorn will likely survive the regular season ([url=http://www.nfl.com/videos/kansas-city-chiefs/09000d5d81375b19/Wyche-discusses-Zorn-s-future]NFL Videos: Wyche discusses Zorn's future[/url]) mostly because of a lack of suitable person in house to take over duties.

He also says Samuels likely out all season and opponents who have broken down tape say our offensive woes are largely attributable to a bad roster/scheme fit.

I wonder if the bye week would be too early for Snyder to tell Zorn he's not coming back in '10 regardless or if he'd wait until late/after the season to do so.[/quote]

I've heard others make the case against the current personnel as it pertains to the West Coast Offense. The argument typically points out that there's a mismatch across the entire Offense - Campbell not ideal for the West Coast Offense, no pass catching RB, need lighter, more agile Offense Linemen, etc. Seems to make sense and the results back it up.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=53Fan;609552]Interesting. I agree the team was built for Gibbs offense and Zorn is trying to make it work with the WCO. I think Zorn needs to make a few adjustments, (Blocking Schemes, etc.), but he still may be able to make this work. Obviously we need new personell but it's a little late for that right now. I wonder if this will be followed by more, "Zorn will last the season" articles?[/quote]

I always thought it was odd that they were keeping Gibbs running game to go along with Zorn's passing game. What they were doing in Seattle with Shaun Alexander seemed to work just fine. I never thought of him as a pass catching back, but he did catch 59 balls one year. When Saunders came to DC, I thought Portis would catch 70 plus balls like Holmes and Faulk. Never materialized.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

The guys Danny wants are waiting till the end of the season to come back.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=Paintrain;609547]So here's something new, Steve Wyche of the NFL Network is reporting that Zorn will likely survive the regular season ([URL="http://www.nfl.com/videos/kansas-city-chiefs/09000d5d81375b19/Wyche-discusses-Zorn-s-future"]NFL Videos: Wyche discusses Zorn's future[/URL]) mostly because of a lack of suitable person in house to take over duties.

He also says Samuels likely out all season and opponents who have broken down tape say our offensive woes are largely attributable to a bad roster/scheme fit.

I wonder if the bye week would be too early for Snyder to tell Zorn he's not coming back in '10 regardless or if he'd wait until late/after the season to do so.[/quote]


Wow Wyche said that? It isn't like a bunch of us guys in here haven't been saying that for the past several weeks. You have a system, you acquire guys that can play effectively in the system or can easily adapt to it. Zorn is trying to put square pegs into round holes. His entire WR corp is used(except for maybe Mitchell and the Pistol offense) was used to playing in a pro style verticle passing type offense in either the college ranks and with ARE and Moss, the pros. The depth is horrid on both sides of the ball. Like it or not if you want to see a consistent winner, it is going to take another 3-5 seasons. Hopefully 2010 is indeed a capless year and you can dump the trash and start anew.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=44Deezel;609558]I've heard others make the case against the current personnel as it pertains to the West Coast Offense. The argument typically points out that there's a mismatch across the entire Offense - Campbell not ideal for the West Coast Offense, no pass catching RB, need lighter, more agile Offense Linemen, etc. Seems to make sense and the results back it up.[/quote]


Our O linemen are old school Gibbs running guys. Samuels was really old school running with Norv, Marty and Stephen Davis. You know things are getting bad when you look back at the Norv era in a good light.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=53Fan;609552]Interesting. I agree the team was built for Gibbs offense and Zorn is trying to make it work with the WCO. I think Zorn needs to make a few adjustments, (Blocking Schemes, etc.), but he still may be able to make this work. Obviously we need new personell but it's a little late for that right now. I wonder if this will be followed by more, "Zorn will last the season" articles?[/quote]

Bottom line is Vinny is to blame for convincing Danny to try the WCO without the right personnel in place. We should have stayed in the air Coryell style offense instead of the WCO, Campbell is more suited for the Gibbs/Coryell offense. In my opinion I think the Gibbs/Coryell offense is a better offense, just look at Baltimore. I think NO runs Parcells type of offense.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;609593]Bottom line is Vinny is to blame for convincing Danny to try the WCO without the right personnel in place. We should have stayed in the air Coryell style offense instead of the WCO, Campbell is more suited for the Gibbs/Coryell offense. In my opinion I think the Gibbs/Coryell offense is a better offense, just look at Baltimore. I think NO runs Parcells type of offense.[/quote]

Vinny definitely has some blame in this. The way I see it is this. They brought in Zorn with the idea of installing the WCO. They knew, or should have known, what kind of players fit the system. They knew that we didn't have a lot of players who were experienced in the WCO. Zorn picked assistants who were not familiar with teaching the WCO. (That I know of). We draft WR's with the idea of working them into the offense as quickly as we can even though they have no NFL or WCO experience. This is obviously a [B]long term[/B] plan. The system must be taught, implemented, practiced and executed. Players who fit, must be acquired. From all reports by QB's who have been in the system, it takes 2-3 years to become efficient in it.

Now Zorn [B]seems[/B] to be catching a lot of heat because we're 2-3 starting off our 2nd season with him as coach. I say seem, because we haven't heard anything from the FO confirming or denying this. What I'd like to know, is did the FO have any intention of giving Zorn 3 years to succeed? It has also been said by those that know, that a QB can do well in the system faster, if he has a good team around him so the burden is not too heavily put on [B]him.[/B] I would think that a good offensive line that can run block and keep the QB from dodging and ducking and not commit penalties that negate 1rst downs, would be part of that equation.

Zorn has made mistakes. (Run up the freakin middle! The only stretch I want to hear about is the players stretching before the game.) The question is, is he to stupid or stubborn to learn? I thought the offense looked better than I'd seen it in a long time except for the redzone and really expected that to be worked out. We can either can the whole thing and start over, or give Zorn time and see. I'm not sure playing 6 winless teams in a row is such a blessing. These guys are fired up and catching heat too. And we've always played down to the level of competition. We did it last year and we did it when Gibbs was here.

I guess I'm rambling. Sorry. Whatever the FO does, I just wish I had more confidence in them to believe it's the right decision.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=53Fan;609609]Vinny definitely has some blame in this. The way I see it is this. They brought in Zorn with the idea of installing the WCO. They knew, or should have known, what kind of players fit the system. They knew that we didn't have a lot of players who were experienced in the WCO. Zorn picked assistants who were not familiar with teaching the WCO. (That I know of). We draft WR's with the idea of working them into the offense as quickly as we can even though they have no NFL or WCO experience. This is obviously a [B]long term[/B] plan. The system must be taught, implemented, practiced and executed. Players who fit, must be acquired. From all reports by QB's who have been in the system, it takes 2-3 years to become efficient in it.

Now Zorn [B]seems[/B] to be catching a lot of heat because we're 2-3 starting off our 2nd season with him as coach. I say seem, because we haven't heard anything from the FO confirming or denying this. What I'd like to know, is did the FO have any intention of giving Zorn 3 years to succeed? It has also been said by those that know, that a QB can do well in the system faster, if he has a good team around him so the burden is not too heavily put on [B]him.[/B] I would think that a good offensive line that can run block and keep the QB from dodging and ducking and not commit penalties that negate 1rst downs, would be part of that equation.

Zorn has made mistakes. (Run up the freakin middle! The only stretch I want to hear about is the players stretching before the game.) The question is, is he to stupid or stubborn to learn? I thought the offense looked better than I'd seen it in a long time except for the redzone and really expected that to be worked out. We can either can the whole thing and start over, or give Zorn time and see. I'm not sure playing 6 winless teams in a row is such a blessing. These guys are fired up and catching heat too. And we've always played down to the level of competition. We did it last year and we did it when Gibbs was here.

I guess I'm rambling. Sorry. Whatever the FO does, I just wish I had more confidence in them to believe it's the right decision.[/quote]

The west coast has nothing to do with wasteing all your timeouts with over 10 minutes left in the game.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=WaldSkins;609610]The west coast has nothing to do with wasteing all your timeouts with over 10 minutes left in the game.[/quote]

And that's what got us 3 losses? I guess we're in good shape then. Just use the timeouts better and we're good to go.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

To me, that is the [B]single most disappointing thing about JZ[/B]. Much of the GENIUS behind any genius coach is the ability to determine "what" you have and design/adapt the scheme to go with those skill sets. He does not appear to understand this.
Joe1 recognized this in his first season and made a legend out of evaluating the talent he had, exploiting their strengths and minimizing their faults.
THEN, as time (and the draft) allows.....fill in the gaps

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=53Fan;609609]Vinny definitely has some blame in this. The way I see it is this. They brought in Zorn with the idea of installing the WCO. They knew, or should have known, what kind of players fit the system. They knew that we didn't have a lot of players who were experienced in the WCO. Zorn picked assistants who were not familiar with teaching the WCO. (That I know of). We draft WR's with the idea of working them into the offense as quickly as we can even though they have no NFL or WCO experience. This is obviously a [B]long term[/B] plan. The system must be taught, implemented, practiced and executed. Players who fit, must be acquired. From all reports by QB's who have been in the system, it takes 2-3 years to become efficient in it.

[B]Now Zorn [B]seems[/B] to be catching a lot of heat because we're 2-3 starting off our 2nd season with him as coach. I say seem, because we haven't heard anything from the FO confirming or denying this. What I'd like to know, is did the FO have any intention of giving Zorn 3 years to succeed? [/B]. . .[/quote]

I think this would have been true if we were seeing progress. Instead, Zorn's offense is getting worse, and a full year and an offseason of familiarity with the playbook and scheme hasn't helped at all.

If we saw our offense advancing in efficiency and scoring, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=Beemnseven;609674]I think this would have been true if we were seeing progress. Instead, Zorn's offense is getting worse, and a full year and an offseason of familiarity with the playbook and scheme hasn't helped at all.

If we saw our offense advancing in efficiency and scoring, we wouldn't be having this discussion.[/quote]

I agree with you.

Also if Zorn had a full lot of his own coaching staff then you could give him 3 years in that situtation. Unfortunately Zorn was placed as head coach among two different coaching staffs in a push for playoffs and beyond.

That patchjob didn't work so I'm pretty sure that experiment is over.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

Zorn to survive.....I'll believe it when I see it!

Don't believe that for a second. Hell for that matter he's already DONE he just doesn't know it..yet.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=Paintrain;609547]So here's something new, Steve Wyche of the NFL Network is reporting that Zorn will likely survive the regular season ([url=http://www.nfl.com/videos/kansas-city-chiefs/09000d5d81375b19/Wyche-discusses-Zorn-s-future]NFL Videos: Wyche discusses Zorn's future[/url]) mostly because of a lack of suitable person in house to take over duties.

He also says Samuels likely out all season and opponents who have broken down tape say our offensive woes are largely attributable to a bad roster/scheme fit.

I wonder if the bye week would be too early for Snyder to tell Zorn he's not coming back in '10 regardless or if he'd wait until late/after the season to do so.[/quote]

I wonder who's idea it was to switch to a WCO? This is just one more log on the fire Vinny pile...

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

I believe that Jim Zorn is now a place holder for the big name WCO coach that Dan Snyder hopes to hire in 2010. If that is the case, then the Redskins are simply getting a head start on running the WCO.

So, looking at it from a twisted point of view, you see that it is actually an advantage that Zorn hasn't done very well as the HC because he has introduced the WCO to the players and he'll be out of the way for the hiring of the big name coach. Good job, Vinny!

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

Might as well ride him out for the year. Firing a guy mid-season rarely gets any results, and if you're looking to bring someone else in after the season anyway, really what's the point? No big name guys are going to come in mid-season.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;609700]I believe that Jim Zorn is now a place holder for the big name WCO coach that Dan Snyder hopes to hire in 2010. If that is the case, then the Redskins are simply getting a head start on running the WCO.

So, looking at it from a twisted point of view, you see that it is actually an advantage that Zorn hasn't done very well as the HC because he has introduced the WCO to the players and he'll be out of the way for the hiring of the big name coach. [B]Good job, Vinny[/B]![/quote]

Taking it a little far there...

If that's the case then you just told fans that they've rooted on the Skins for naught the last two years when they just had a dummy fill-in coach while they waited for the likes of Holmgren to become available.

I certianly wouldn't commend any front office for doing that. That is a gross mismanagment of resources and also a slap in the face for players like Portis and Moss who's ages can't afford the luxury of a two year mail-in by the franchise.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=Paintrain;609547]So here's something new, Steve Wyche of the NFL Network is reporting that Zorn will likely survive the regular season ([url=http://www.nfl.com/videos/kansas-city-chiefs/09000d5d81375b19/Wyche-discusses-Zorn-s-future]NFL Videos: Wyche discusses Zorn's future[/url]) mostly because of a lack of suitable person in house to take over duties.

He also says Samuels likely out all season and opponents who have broken down tape say our offensive woes are largely attributable to a bad roster/scheme fit.

I wonder if the bye week would be too early for Snyder to tell Zorn he's not coming back in '10 regardless or if he'd wait until late/after the season to do so.[/quote]

While many have agreed it's time for Zorn to go, I've never thought replacing him at this particular time would have any positive affect. No coach can come in at this point and make a difference. This is what the players have been calling for so they don't have to continue answering questions about the coach for the next eleven games.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;609593]Bottom line is Vinny is to blame for convincing Danny to try the WCO without the right personnel in place. We should have stayed in the air Coryell style offense instead of the WCO, Campbell is more suited for the Gibbs/Coryell offense. In my opinion I think the Gibbs/Coryell offense is a better offense, just look at Baltimore. I think NO runs Parcells type of offense.[/quote]

It doesn't matter what type of offense we run. It's not like we were lighting up the scoreboard when Gibbs was here. We don't have the players.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;609593]Bottom line is Vinny is to blame for convincing Danny to try the WCO without the right personnel in place. We should have stayed in the air Coryell style offense instead of the WCO,[B] Campbell is more suited for the Gibbs/Coryell offense[/B]. In my opinion I think the Gibbs/Coryell offense is a better offense, just look at Baltimore. I think NO runs Parcells type of offense.[/quote]

SOUP is more suited for a backup role, in just about any offense.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;609705]Taking it a little far there...

If that's the case then you just told fans that they've rooted on the Skins for naught the last two years when they just had a dummy fill-in coach while they waited for the likes of Holmgren to become available.

I certianly wouldn't commend any front office for doing that. That is a gross mismanagment of resources and also a slap in the face for players like Portis and Moss who's ages can't afford the luxury of a two year mail-in by the franchise.[/quote]

I didn't make myself clear enough. I don't think that Zorn was hired to be a placeholder but I do think that he has become one now that things have gone downhill.

The "Good job, Vinny!" part was sarcasm.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=Mattyk72;609701]Might as well ride him out for the year. Firing a guy mid-season rarely gets any results, and if you're looking to bring someone else in after the season anyway, really what's the point? No big name guys are going to come in mid-season.[/quote]

But it would be a good time to bring in a Parcells type so he could take the rest of the season to evaluate talent.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du5MsH5e414&feature=related]YouTube - Hitler goes after Shanahan after Detroit Lions beat Washington Redskins[/url]


funny.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=WaldSkins;609743]But it would be a good time to bring in a Parcells type so he could take the rest of the season to evaluate talent.[/quote]

I can easily envision Snyder informing Zorn he won't be back in early December so he can start the search early without firing him in season.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=Paintrain;609750]I can easily envision Snyder informing Zorn he won't be back in early December so he can start the search early without firing him in season.[/quote]

Unless he searches for a GM i dont think it will matter.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=WaldSkins;609759]Unless he searches for a GM i dont think it will matter.[/quote]

Well, I'm guessing he'd be exploring a Gruden/Allen package or starting conversations with Mike & Mike about a President/Coach role.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=Paintrain;609768]Well, I'm guessing he'd be exploring a Gruden/Allen package or starting conversations with Mike & Mike about a President/Coach role.[/quote]

I cannot stand Mike Greenburg

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

I believe Zorn will remain the season. We don't have anyone to take over for him. Also what will putting in a new head coach do midseason? nothing productive. I havent seen it work for anyone but the 49ers, and we don't have a mike singletary to take over.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

A lot excellent discussion in this thread. I never thought about the possibility Zorn might be left in place just to keep the WCO experiment going until Snyder can get a guy like Holmgren to take over.

...that said there's not a lot of sense behind the switch to a WCO, and whoever asked the question earlier in the thread who decided to go this route (Vinny or Snyder) is a smart person, asking a really smart question. I know the coaching choice has been discussed at length but I can't help thinking back to the '07 season after Jason got hurt. I think when Collins went in Saunders took near complete control of the offense, and the result IMO was the best offensive play I've seen from the Skins in a very long time. Collins is nothing too special but very smart and knows the Saunders offense like the back of his hand.

I think Snyder/Vinny would have been much wiser to continue in that offensive scheme. I would have kept Williams as HC, Saunders as OC and let him truly run the offense from top to bottom. My guess is Saunders wanted Collins to the starter instead of JC, and that would have been great IMO. Jason could see the offense operate as Saunders intended w/ the keen student Collins at QB. Basically I believe we'd be a much better team since '07 if Snyder/Vinnie had gone this route.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=WaldSkins;609789]I cannot stand Mike Greenburg[/quote]

I figured that would happen when I typed Mike & Mike. I was being lazy but I meant Holmgren and Shanahan. They are going to be linked until one of them lands somewhere.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

Man, for all his awful play calling and personnel decisions, I can't help but feel sorry for Zorn. He should have just not accepted the HC job when he realized he couldn't even pick his own defensive coordinator

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=rbanerjee23;609852]Man, for all his awful play calling and personnel decisions, I can't help but feel sorry for Zorn. He should have just not accepted the HC job when he realized he couldn't even pick his own defensive coordinator[/quote]
Why would you even want him to? He was a QB coach that fell into the position, I wouldn't want him picking my DC.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=wolfeskins;609747][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du5MsH5e414&feature=related"]YouTube - Hitler goes after Shanahan after Detroit Lions beat Washington Redskins[/URL]


funny.[/quote]


holy crapm that was freakin' spectacular.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

[quote=the goat;609808]
i think snyder/vinny would have been much wiser to continue in that offensive scheme. I would have kept williams as hc, saunders as oc and let him truly run the offense from top to bottom. My guess is saunders wanted collins to the starter instead of jc, and that would have been great imo. Jason could see the offense operate as saunders intended w/ the keen student collins at qb. Basically i believe we'd be a much better team since '07 if snyder/vinnie had gone this route.[/quote]

bingo

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

i dont dislike zorn, in fact...i think the guy got a bum deal...he got gibb's players and snyders whipping boy cerrato and blache as his d coordinator..i was willing to give him a pass and i do think when he leaves here he will make a brilliant coordinator somewhere, but he needs to turn into a motivator. that is his failing.

Re: NFL Network: Zorn likely to survive the season
 

Is this still even true? My guess is that if Zorn doesn't win he is going to be gone. The way this organization is doing Zorn is really ruining it for the next candidates that come down the pike. If I were any of the big super bowl coaches, would I want to be treated like Zorn is because the old adage is "If Danny did it to him, he can do it to you!" There is no reason think that Snyder wouldn't humiliate and play hard ball with coaches who were "Not in compliance". This organization can't even lose with dignity. Most teams get it and they understand they are losing and just try and rebuild. This ownership is so mercurial that it wants to torture and save money any way that they can. All Zorn had to do was look at what they were doing to the season ticket holders to see what was going to happen to him. I am sure that there was a lawyer present when Zorn was talking with Ceratto.