New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

I think just about everybody on this site was not happy with our kicking game,I dont see Hall or Frost listed as free agents so i assume they are under contract and we would take a salary cap hit if we cut them,am I right on this? so ,can we even afford to go after new kickers?
this is a list of the free agent placekickers
Aaron Elling RFA Ravens
Adam Vinatieri UFA Patriots
Joe Nedney UFA 49ers
Jose Cortez UFA Eagles
Josh Brown RFA Seahawks
Matt Bryant UFA Buccaneers
Mike Vanderjagt UFA Colts
Paul Edinger UFA Vikings
Ryan Longwell UFA Packers
Todd Peterson UFA Falcons

I would love to have Vanderjet or Vinatieri,but they are probably out of our price range,Josh Brown would be excellent also

Re: New Kicker And Punter,can We Afford Them?
 

You must be kidding about Brown. After the smack that clown talked, I'd cheer for him to get crushed on every FG try if he ever had the sack to sign in DC.

Vinatieri and Vanderchoke are probably too expensive. Longwell wouldn't be bad. He's getting pretty old though, isn't he?

Re: New Kicker And Punter,can We Afford Them?
 

I think we ought to cut Tupa and keep Frost. Frost was one of the main reasons the Seahawks didn't blow us up in the 1st quarter. He hung his punts up there from way back in our territory allowing Jimoh and others to make good plays on special teams. I know this was just one game, but it was a playoff game, in bad weather, on the road, and he did well. That tells me something. Not to mention, he can kick off too, if needed. Tupa is old and overpaid.

If we can pry Novak from under Arizona's hands, I'd be heavily in favor of locking him up and releasing Hall.

Re: New Kicker And Punter,can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=hurrykaine]If we can pry Novak from under Arizona's hands, I'd be heavily in favor of locking him up and releasing Hall.[/QUOTE]


We should have kept Nick the Kick when we had the chance, and cut Hall. Theoretically, Arizona won't need him once Rackers is backers.

Re: New Kicker And Punter,can We Afford Them?
 

Rackers is back. I think we need a new kicker, but not a new punter. I don't understand the hate on Tupa. Hurrykaine, why you want Frost over Tupa is beyond me. One good game and you think he should be here next year? Didn't you see how many bad games he had during the season. Last year, when Tupa was around, he was booming punts, and giving us great field position. He probably still has a few good years left in him. As for John Hall, ever since he got injured he hasn't been the same. It's time to cut him, imo. He can't even kick 50 yarders anymore. When was the last time he got a touchback on a kickoff? Pick up Novak.

Re: New Kicker And Punter,can We Afford Them?
 

They have to get rid of Hall. He was mediocre when they signed him and he cost them the season. He can't even get the ball inside the 10????


Where was Novak when we needed him??

They need to hold onto Tupa if possible. Frost is o.k. but these two positions have been liabilities for years.

Re: New Kicker And Punter,can We Afford Them?
 

Jose Cortez? Cortez!!!????

I wouldn't pay that fool 10 cents a year to kick for my team.

Re: New Kicker And Punter,can We Afford Them?
 

Both Frost and Hall need to go. Their mistakes are just too costly, game in and game out. Kickoffs that are a joke. Many punts that are also a joke. Yes, Frost did very well against Seattle, but that was the exception, not the rule, for him this entire season. You never know which Frost will show up and a team needs a punter that is consistent and dependable. Frost is neither.

Hall has never been the same since his many injuries. His kickoffs are atrocious and give the opponent an unnecessary advantage in every game.

I don't care what it costs, we need two new kickers.

Re: New Kicker And Punter,can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=mooby]Rackers is back. I think we need a new kicker, but not a new punter. I don't understand the hate on Tupa. Hurrykaine, why you want Frost over Tupa is beyond me. One good game and you think he should be here next year? Didn't you see how many bad games he had during the season. Last year, when Tupa was around, he was booming punts, and giving us great field position. He probably still has a few good years left in him. As for John Hall, ever since he got injured he hasn't been the same. It's time to cut him, imo. He can't even kick 50 yarders anymore. When was the last time he got a touchback on a kickoff? Pick up Novak.[/QUOTE]

I'm not hating on Tupa. But you have to admit the guy is overpaid. 1 million for a punter when we're trying to trim down our cap numbers? C'mon.

I agree Frost has been pi$$ poor in some games, and has shanked them at critical times. However, he will get better with experience. What he did in the 1st quarter of the Seattle game..again - 5-6 punts one after the other, backed up in our own end zone, in bad weather, on the road, and in the playoffs - that was remarkable. Those are the toughest punts to make. Are you that confident this guy won't get better?

Perhaps we can do better than both Tupa and Frost - I don't know.

Re: New Kicker And Punter,can We Afford Them?
 

I think Frost is getting better, I think we should keep him. Hall just isn't what he used to be, maybe try and get Novak back.....

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=htownskinfan]I think just about everybody on this site was not happy with our kicking game,I dont see Hall or Frost listed as free agents so i assume they are under contract and we would take a salary cap hit if we cut them,am I right on this? so ,can we even afford to go after new kickers?
this is a list of the free agent placekickers
Aaron Elling RFA Ravens
Adam Vinatieri UFA Patriots
Joe Nedney UFA 49ers
Jose Cortez UFA Eagles
Josh Brown RFA Seahawks
Matt Bryant UFA Buccaneers
Mike Vanderjagt UFA Colts
Paul Edinger UFA Vikings
Ryan Longwell UFA Packers
Todd Peterson UFA Falcons

I would love to have Vanderjet or Vinatieri,but they are probably out of our price range,Josh Brown would be excellent also[/QUOTE]

Nedney had a great year for SF and the cost might be right!!!

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

"I would love to have Vanderjet or Vinatieri,but they are probably out of our price range,Josh Brown would be excellent also."

Josh Brown equals DOUCHEBAG After what he said b4 the divisional game = I'll Pass

Vanderjagt is worth 1 mil after his shank but it looks good on Manning.... that arrogant ASSHOLE "I'll Be a Good Teammate" and now Bradshaw called him out.
He is Canadian so I'd go for him and he is affordable

Vinatieri isn't as cheap but is more accurate and trusting in the clutch but I think the Pats will do a lot to resign him but if they don't then go 4 it but I think we either keep Hall or get Vanderjagt.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

FWIW, I say track down Novak and sign him up. If we do need a new punter (assuming we're going to hate on Tupa and not give him a chance), draft one.
Brown is a trash talker that chokes. The only way I'd sign him would be for one game and one kick, just so the entire O-Line could lie down after the snap and let his pansy a$$ get wailed on by the other team. From what I heard Vanderjagt is a bit of a head case, and had some kind of run in with Manning. Vinatieri would be a great candidate with a clutch rep, but I'm guessing he'll be asking a lot. I wouldn't be opposed to Edinger either. I remember him having strong leg. I'd rather spend the big bucks on a quality #2 wideout especially since there's a good crop of them available in FA this year.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

In response to the thread's original question, I seriously doubt we'd have any trouble squeezing a punter and kicker's salary under the cap. Tupa and Hall are getting great money right now for their respective positions and no kickers or punters command huge salaries.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

Novac is a pussy. Keep Tupa, cut Hall, and sign Nedney or Longwell. Tupa was HUGE to our special teams two years ago.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=skindogger47]Novac is a pussy. [/QUOTE]

LOL, and you base this on... what, exactly? The fact that he broke every ACC kicking record and is 5th in NCAA history for career points scored?

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

As mad as I am about Hall's performance on Saturday, I would not cut him unless it's for a serious upgrade like Vanderjadt or Adam Vineteria. Hall is usually pretty reliable froma reasonable distance and I still remember a few years ago when our kickers couldn't make 30 yarders.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=celts32]As mad as I am about Hall's performance on Saturday, I would not cut him unless it's for a serious upgrade like Vanderjadt or Adam Vineteria. Hall is usually pretty reliable froma reasonable distance and I still remember a few years ago when our kickers couldn't make 30 yarders.[/QUOTE]

The bigger problem with Hall is that he's never really recovered from the injury and you never know when he's going to come up gimpy and then we end up having to cut someone else to sign a kicker to a temporary contract (a la Nick Novak).

Personally I'd rather take a chance on a young guy with a strong leg like Novak, and see what he can do, than be happy with a guy who's (usually) good at making 40 yarders.

Gibbs should not have to punt every time we can't get past the 25.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

I dont care about Josh brown mouthing off,shoes he has passion for his team,and Van would keep his mouth shut,he learned his lesson,some people are for our punter and kciker and some are against,1 has to go,we either need a punter who can kick a touchback,or a fg kicker who can,I'd love to have tupa come back,because i love the option of having a punter who's an x-qb,but he's to old to rely on not getting injured again

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=RedskinPete]Nedney had a great year for SF and the cost might be right!!![/QUOTE]

I was just looking at the kicker stats and you are dead on,26-28 and he was tied for the longest fg this yr,56 yrds,he was 2-3 beyond the 50 and 10-10 in the 40-49 yrd range

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

How anyone could want Frost over any other punter in the league is beyond sense. He was the worst punter we have had in this town since Theisman tried to punt one. He is terrible plain and simple. There is no way around it.

Re: New Kicker And Punter,can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=hurrykaine]I think we ought to cut Tupa and keep Frost. Frost was one of the main reasons the Seahawks didn't blow us up in the 1st quarter. He hung his punts up there from way back in our territory allowing Jimoh and others to make good plays on special teams. I know this was just one game, but it was a playoff game, in bad weather, on the road, and he did well. That tells me something. Not to mention, he can kick off too, if needed. Tupa is old and overpaid.

If we can pry Novak from under Arizona's hands, I'd be heavily in favor of locking him up and releasing Hall.[/QUOTE]
Frost? whatever.

What did Novak do to convince you he was any better than an average kicker? His kickoffs were meager and his fieldgoals only reliable under 50. Sounds about like what we already have in Hall. At least he used to be better than that and could possibly get back to that. I am not saying keep Hall but Novak isn't the answer either. He is a mid season pick up kicker in the NFL at best.

I wonder about your kicking analysis.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

What the hell is all this talk about Novak? Guys he does NOT have a strong leg. He has an average leg. He doesn't kick inside the 10 and is reliable only from inside 45 maybe. That's saying he is "reliable" based on less than a year's worth of experience mostly for a non-contending team. Where is all this crazy Novak love coming from?

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]What the hell is all this talk about Novak? Guys he does NOT have a strong leg. He has an average leg. He doesn't kick inside the 10 and is reliable only from inside 45 maybe. That's saying he is "reliable" based on less than a year's worth of experience mostly for a non-contending team. Where is all this crazy Novak love coming from?[/QUOTE]

There's a few of us that have a soft spot in our hearts for former Terps who set ACC scoring records I guess. Just a passing phase I'm sure.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=LongTimeSkinsFan]There's a few of us that have a soft spot in our hearts for former Terps who set ACC scoring records I guess. Just a passing phase I'm sure.[/QUOTE]
I hope. I am not saying he isn't a "decent" kicker but we already have a "decent" kicker. We were a playoff team this year so we need to be making upgrades at positions where we are "decent" to be at least "good" so we can take the next steps. Stop letting our past hold us back. Lets find a quality guy to get in there. A guy who can be counted to provide good kicoffssand can makes big kicks. Hell I'd take a punter who is good and can kickoff like they have in Denver this year. Keep the kicker fresh and healthy. Maybe in that scenario you can keep Hall and get his leg strength up by not over working him with kickoffs.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

found these stats on kickers,out of the free agents,vinateri had the most tb's,and apparently frost can kickoff,he did twice this yr with a slightly higher avg than hall,also novaks avg was worse than hall and frost
[url]http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/K-KICKOFFS/2005/regular[/url]

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

One has to admit a certain retarded guilty pleasure in arguing over kickers and punters. For me personally, the issue is that Hall is being paid like a top tier kicker and he is clearly not.

Maybe Novak will never be better than Hall (I question whether that is really true or not). He certainly can't cost us as much, and he's not a gimp, I know that much. And frankly, we've had plenty of time to get used to Hall's deficiencies.

I'm sure a certain amount of the Hall-hating comes from the fact that he's the devil we know. And certainly it could be worse. But it seems kind of lame to just settle for a guy who has become mediocre just because he's comfortably mediocre.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

Just for comparison...

This year Hall made $665k. Next year he's due to make $1.5 million.
Novak made $230k this year.


Others we've been talking about:

Vinatieri: $2.5mil
Vanderchoke: $1.8mil
Josh "I Wish I Could Quit You, Matthew" Brown: $380k
Longwell: $1mil

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=htownskinfan]I was just looking at the kicker stats and you are dead on,26-28 and he was tied for the longest fg this yr,56 yrds,he was 2-3 beyond the 50 and 10-10 in the 40-49 yrd range[/QUOTE]

He would fit and Frost I thought had a good season!!!

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

frost is wildly inconsistant and novak gets WAY too many kicks blocked, neither one would be an upgrade, they're both barely in the nfl.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=htownskinfan]found these stats on kickers,out of the free agents,vinateri had the most tb's,and apparently frost can kickoff,he did twice this yr with a slightly higher avg than hall,also novaks avg was worse than hall and frost
[url="http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/K-KICKOFFS/2005/regular"]http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/K-KICKOFFS/2005/regular[/url][/QUOTE]

That stat means nothing because Frost has only taken 2 kickoffs, his average could go either up or down with more kicks so we do not know. It is always a better bet to go with the vet, maybe he will do better next season, but the trends have shown he is going downhill.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]How anyone could want Frost over any other punter in the league is beyond sense. He was the worst punter we have had in this town since Theisman tried to punt one. He is terrible plain and simple. There is no way around it.[/QUOTE]

As of late, execluding the 14 yard punt in Tampa, he has done very well for us. We are writing him off too soon, if anything we should keep him and see how things go. He has slowly improved, and he did well for us in Seattle. Give the kid a chance, and see how he does, all signs seem to indicate he will only improve.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]frost is wildly inconsistant and novak gets WAY too many kicks blocked, neither one would be an upgrade, they're both barely in the nfl.[/QUOTE]
A voice of reason!

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=dgack]Maybe Novak will never be better than Hall (I question whether that is really true or not). He certainly can't cost us as much, and he's not a gimp, I know that much. And frankly, we've had plenty of time to get used to Hall's deficiencies.
[/QUOTE]
What eveidence have you seen that gives you any impression that he will ever be any better than Hall is right now? There hasn't been any if you are honest with yourself. He is an average kicker at best. His leg strength is not going to go up all off a sudden and he has no experience. I am not advocating keeping Hall for sure but Novak is not any better.
[QUOTE=dgack]
But it seems kind of lame to just settle for a guy who has become mediocre just because he's comfortably mediocre.[/QUOTE]
It's also lame to settle for a guy who is mediocre just because he is cheaply mediocre.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

The skins have done everything in their power to keep Hall on the team, they are not going to dump him after missing 1 FG.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]What eveidence have you seen that gives you any impression that he will ever be any better than Hall is right now? There hasn't been any if you are honest with yourself. He is an average kicker at best. His leg strength is not going to go up all off a sudden and he has no experience. I am not advocating keeping Hall for sure but Novak is not any better.

It's also lame to settle for a guy who is mediocre just because he is cheaply mediocre.[/QUOTE]

I didn't mean to endorse Novak in that thread necessarily, he just comes to mind because he kicked reasonably well for us in Hall's absence and he was good at UMD.

Looking at his numbers this year it's clear Novak was not awesome. I was just pointing out that Hall is going to be getting paid a ton of cash to basically be slightly better than average. And unfortunately I don't see the obvious quality alternatives being any cheaper.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

I think Vinatieri would be a great pickup but would cost. Question is whether the cost would be worth it. Are there any college kickers with actual good legs who could be options?

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

novak's kickoffs were also short. if u all want someone to replace hall on kickoffs, then novak isnt the answer. however, he seemed to be solid at fgs, but he did get 2 blocked...i dont think that was a fluke

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]I think Vinatieri would be a great pickup but would cost. Question is whether the cost would be worth it. Are there any college kickers with actual good legs who could be options?[/QUOTE]

Dream on if you think we can afford Vinetieri. We have other positions to upgrade at (WR, DE, OL). If Hall is going to be replaced, it will be with someone cheaper.

Re: New Kicker And Punter, Can We Afford Them?
 

frost really came on at the end of the year,so he stays.isnt there one single kicker in college we can get cheap(doesnt anyone in college kick field goals anymore?)hall has got to go,too much money,always hurt and lately not dependable anymore