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Dana87 01-27-2006 09:08 AM

Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
On my way home from work last night I heard an NFL scout talking about the teams that need a QB and their choice of using a top 10 pick on a rookie QB or possibly trading for Philip Rivers. His reasoning was that Rivers is farther along in his NFL development than a rookie would be. While I agree with philosophy, I don't understand while when these discussions come up Rivers seems to be worth a 1st rnd pick and we would be lucky to get a 3rd. I believe that Patrick Ramsy is a better prospect and is farther along in his development than Rivers. If you look at the each of their production you will see that Ramsey has far better numbers. In 2005 Rivers had a QB Rating of 50.4, Ramsey's was 95.3. In his career Rivers Rating is 67.1, Ramsey's Rating is 75.0. If you look at the numbers it's pretty easy to see that Patrick Ramsey is far more ready to come in and lead an NFL franchise than Philip Rivers is. And if he is worthy of a 1st rnd pick then why is Ramsey?

12thMan 01-27-2006 09:16 AM

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
Comparing Rivers and Ramsey in terms of trade value is really two different stories.

First of all, with Drew Brees facing off-season recovery from a shoulder injury, I don't think the Chargers are looking forward to letting Rivers go.

Secondly, Rivers really hasn't played much whereas Ramsey has had much, much more time on the field. So when you compare them statistacally, Ramsey has had more opportunities. But Ramsey could be perceived by some as having the edge to come right in and make an impact.

Schneed10 01-27-2006 09:22 AM

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
[QUOTE=Dana87]On my way home from work last night I heard an NFL scout talking about the teams that need a QB and their choice of using a top 10 pick on a rookie QB or possibly trading for Philip Rivers. His reasoning was that Rivers is farther along in his NFL development than a rookie would be. While I agree with philosophy, I don't understand while when these discussions come up Rivers seems to be worth a 1st rnd pick and we would be lucky to get a 3rd. I believe that Patrick Ramsy is a better prospect and is farther along in his development than Rivers. If you look at the each of their production you will see that Ramsey has far better numbers. In 2005 Rivers had a QB Rating of 50.4, Ramsey's was 95.3. In his career Rivers Rating is 67.1, Ramsey's Rating is 75.0. If you look at the numbers it's pretty easy to see that Patrick Ramsey is far more ready to come in and lead an NFL franchise than Philip Rivers is. And if he is worthy of a 1st rnd pick then why is Ramsey?[/QUOTE]

Are you seriously comparing Ramsey's 2005 season to Rivers'? That's absurd, Ramsey didn't even see 60 minutes of game action, same with Rivers.

Now as for the opinion on Phillip Rivers, I think he's overrated. I don't think Rivers is worth a first rounder. I also don't think Ramsey is worth a first rounder.

Ramsey is a turnover machine. He gets sacked way too often and throws far too many interceptions. He's never going to be anything more than a spot-starter in this league.

I do agree with you that Ramsey and Rivers should be valued similarly. But they both shouldn't be valued at 1st rounders, they should both be valued around the 3rd round.

celts32 01-27-2006 09:22 AM

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
Rivers is still pretty much an unknown so his value is close to where it started which is 1st round. Ramsey has played a good amount and has been mistake proned which has raised concerns as to whether he can be a starting QB. His value started as a late #1 and has fallen to a mid round pick at best.

Ramsey may be better than Rivers, but the difference is that Ramsey has shown his hand and Rivers has not.

JoeRedskin 01-27-2006 09:35 AM

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
[QUOTE=celts32]Rivers is still pretty much an unknown so his value is close to where it started which is 1st round. Ramsey has played a good amount and has been mistake proned which has raised concerns as to whether he can be a starting QB. His value started as a late #1 and has fallen to a mid round pick at best.

Ramsey may be better than Rivers, but the difference is that Ramsey has shown his hand and Rivers has not.[/QUOTE]

Well put.

BigSKINBauer 01-27-2006 09:38 AM

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
What would we get for cambell if we would want to trade him? Obviously i am not saying that we should by any means but i think that cambell would yield more in trade value than patrick.

JoeRedskin 01-27-2006 09:46 AM

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
At this point, I doubt it. We drafted Campbell higher than he was rated and, even at the time we drafted him, he was viewed as a project.

Rivers was/is viewed as someone who can compete for a starting job right now with the expectation that he should be able to win the competition.

In evaluating trade value, Ramsey is more similar to Rivers than Campbell but with the caveat that Ramsey has already demonstrated some significant faults that call into question his ability to be THE quarterback whereas Rivers' faults, if any, are still very much an unknown.

IF Campbell were on the block, I am betting he would be worth a solid 3, MAYBE a 2.

firstdown 01-27-2006 09:53 AM

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
I'm not convienced that Ramsey won't be here next year. I think Saunders may want a look at all three of our current QB's so he can decide who will be our starter. I'm not totaly sold on brunell as a QB that can take us to the SB because I don't know if toward the end of this past season if his arm was getting weak or the whole O was playing bad. I do like what Brunell did this season I just have that question mark on him or was it just his knee that was the problem.

JoeRedskin 01-27-2006 10:08 AM

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The only way Ramsey stays is if he wants to stay and accept that, at best, he will be given a shot to start but that, unless and until he thouroghly outshines Brunell, Brunnell is the starter. Further, if Brunnell is going to be replaced, Campbell will also be given a shot and Ramsey will have to beat him out to. I doubt, and with good reason, that Ramsey will accept the role of "solid back-up" for another year but he may.

Oh dear god - I am being sucked into the blackhole of the Ramsey/Brunnell debate. Clearly its dark evil gravitational pull is too strong to be resisted. AAAaaaagghhhh ...

I am sorry Mods - looks like one more thread going to the mega merge. Please don't ban me.

skindogger47 01-27-2006 10:23 AM

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
[QUOTE=JoeRedskin]At this point, I doubt it. We drafted Campbell higher than he was rated and, even at the time we drafted him, he was viewed as a project.
[/QUOTE]I'd have to say that Rivers, just like any QB drafted in the first round, was a project himself. He didn't go 13-0 in the SEC either. I don't care about his ACC passing yards. But he is better than Ramsey. Where you come from makes you who you are. SEC> ACC> Conference USA. Big Ben is the exception. And Florida Gators.

12thMan 01-27-2006 10:25 AM

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
[QUOTE=skindogger47]I'd have to say that Rivers, just like any QB drafted in the first round, was a project himself. He didn't go 13-0 in the SEC either. I don't care about his ACC passing yards. But he is better than Ramsey. Where you come from makes you who you are. SEC> ACC> Conference USA. Big Ben is the exception. And Florida Gators.[/QUOTE]

I don't think we can say difinitavely(sp) that Rivers is better than Ramsey.

What have we seen of Rivers to come to that conclusion?

jdlea 01-27-2006 10:29 AM

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
[QUOTE=skindogger47]I'd have to say that Rivers, just like any QB drafted in the first round, was a project himself. He didn't go 13-0 in the SEC either. I don't care about his ACC passing yards. But he is better than Ramsey. Where you come from makes you who you are. SEC> ACC> Conference USA. Big Ben is the exception. And Florida Gators.[/QUOTE]

I don't really agree with the assertion that the school you come from decides how good you're going to be in the NFL. Chad Pennington, prior to injury, had a very good stretch as a starter and he came from Marshall, a mid-major school at best. So did Leftwich and he's becoming a very good starter also. I think that Rivers would be lucky to reach Leftwich's level. Favre went to Southern Miss, they're not exactly a top school, either. Culpepper played at Central Florida. There's plenty of examples of guys who came from mid majors and went on to have success in the NFL.

JoeRedskin 01-27-2006 10:38 AM

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
[QUOTE=12thMan]I don't think we can say difinitavely(sp) that Rivers is better than Ramsey.

What have we seen of Rivers to come to that conclusion?[/QUOTE]

And of course that's the crux of the issue. Teams looking to trade a draft choice for a QB as opposed to trying to sign an UFA are confronted with a lot of options this offseason. As homers, we are probably (and not necessarily intentionally) over-valuing the trade value of QB's in hopes of getting more for Ramsey than his actual market value to other teams. Probably the same for Rivers. Drafting is such a crapshoot and otherwise logical rules seem to go by the wayside in valuing draft picks against current players.

Think about it. If you are New Orleans or Tennesse, do you trade your pick for Rivers instead of taking Young or Linehart? No one seems to even be discussing that possibility. Yet, if Rivers were coming out of school NOW, with the same stats and rep as when he did 2 years ago, he would probably be included in the "which QB goes first?" speculation.

Somehow, even though Rivers has been in the league two years and done nothing to demostrate his inability to live up to his original potential (except fail to beat out a pro-bowl, playoff (last year) QB), he is of lesser value than two college QB's each with acknowledged and serious question marks.

At QB, it's all about that shiny new "potential". First round QB's are kinda like new cars - as soon as you drive them off the lot they lose value.

Southpaw 01-27-2006 10:45 AM

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
[QUOTE=Schneed10]Ramsey is a turnover machine. He gets sacked way too often and throws far too many interceptions. He's never going to be anything more than a spot-starter in this league.[/QUOTE]

Ramsey has a better TD/INT ratio than about 1/3 of the quarterbacks that saw game time this season(Jake Plummer, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Rex Grossman, Eli Manning, etc.), and he fumbles far less than Daunte Culpepper, Kurt Warner, and Drew Bledsoe. I think calling him a "turnover machine" is a bit of an overstatement.

12thMan 01-27-2006 10:46 AM

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 
[QUOTE=JoeRedskin]And of course that's the crux of the issue. Teams looking to trade a draft choice for a QB as opposed to trying to sign an UFA are confronted with a lot of options this offseason. As homers, we are probably (and not necessarily intentionally) over-valuing the trade value of QB's in hopes of getting more for Ramsey than his actual market value to other teams. Probably the same for Rivers. Drafting is such a crapshoot and otherwise logical rules seem to go by the wayside in valuing draft picks against current players.

Think about it. If you are New Orleans or Tennesse, do you trade your pick for Rivers instead of taking Young or Linehart? No one seems to even be discussing that possibility. Yet, if Rivers were coming out of school NOW, with the same stats and rep as when he did 2 years ago, he would probably be included in the "which QB goes first?" speculation.

Somehow, even though Rivers has been in the league two years and done nothing to demostrate his inability to live up to his original potential (except fail to beat out a pro-bowl, playoff (last year) QB), he is of lesser value than two college QB's each with acknowledged and serious question marks.

At QB, it's all about that shiny new "potential". First round QB's are kinda like new cars - as soon as you drive them off the lot they lose value.[/QUOTE]

Before I even got to the bottom of your post, I was thinking how the previous draft classes are like '04 and '05 models. The car industry uses the term "Nused". Not a lot of milage, but not straight from the factory either.

I think most GMs with an early draft pick or more inclined to go with something from the "factory", if you will. Unless, of course, you're talking about a proven QB, like a Drew Brees.


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