Are the NY Giants making good decisions?
 

Somehow the headline of the post got posted before I could write anything.
I am wondering if the Giants have made a good decision in hiring taskmaster Tom Coughlin. Is Coach Coughlin out of step with the times? It is interesting that some of the Giants have already gotten so concerned that they have filed a grievance against Coughlin with the NFL Players Association.

Did you all see that Coughlin drafted his son in law with I think their second round draft choice?

And then what is going on with the firing of Kerry Collins, a very good quarterback who was apparently a core team leader?

And what about paying the huge price they did to move up in the draft to pick Eli Manning? Was that a wise use of their draft choices?

I look at the Giants and the 49ers and I see two teams going nowhere fast.

First the Giants got rid of taskmaster Jim Fassell and replaced him with taskmaster Tom Coughlin, and while Coughlin is proven is he all that much more proven than Fassel? This isn't like bringing Parcells or Gibbs to right the ship

As for Kerry Collins. I think he can still play and I'm sure he'll find a place to play in the next few months. And I don't think replacing him with Kurt Warner would be an improvement. Warner is a shell (if event that) of what he was 4 years ago and had the benefit of Holt, Bruce and Faulk making up the "greatest show on turf"

As for the Eli Manning deal...they wuz robbed!

I think the Giants really made some dumb moves. The players quit on Fassell. Maybe he lost control of the team I don't know... but he had them playing way over their talent the previous years.

And they gave WAAAY too much to get Manning. Lots of the experts didn't even think Manning was the top QB and the Giants mortgaged some of their future for this guy... who got so much publicity just because of his name.
We'll see.... he may prove me wrong but I'm thinking they gave up way too much for him.

I don't think that the Giants are making bad decesions. Collins didn't want to be a backup, and when you have a QB with the potential of Eli you go ahead and toss him in feet first.

Let's look at their offense:
Tiki Barber - A solid back with fumble problems, but better than what 95% of the first picks end up with for a RB.
Amani Toomer - One of the better receivers in the NFL, great to throw to!
Jeremey Shockee - Arguably the best TE in football, definitely a nice check down.
Ike Hilliard - very solid receiver.

Get rid of their line, and the Giants have a lot of offensive talent. If they can solidify their offensive line I'd be pretty scared of them.

For the most part they have to rebuild thier defense off cornerstones such as Michael Strahan.

I don't think they're going to be great this year, but I also think that in a couple years they could have a solid team. Fassell was too buddy buddy for the Giants, and they might have a tough time adjusting to a hardnosed coach.

Collins is gone because he wanted it more than them wanting him gone.

I'm with Smoot. The Giants are going nowhere. Regardless of talent, this is a team with real "personality" problems. By game 5, they will be fighting with the coach, fighting with each other and giving up in games. San Diego is getting the number 1 pick again next year.

And, Daseal, there is no need to get rid of their O-Line, it's non-existent anyway.

I meant if you take the line out of the equation. Omit their offensive line, and they have a very talented offense. As I said, it will take a few years, but this division is gonna be tough!

They wont be as bad as people expect this year, I dont think. They wont be good either, however. I think in 3-4 years, they are gonna be a team to watch out for. It all depends on Emily Manning though.

If Eli turns out to be half as good as his brother, we'll be hating life in a few years. That said, I think they should have kept their 2005 first rounder (likely to be top ten, perhaps top five) and taken Rivers or moved down for Roethlisberger. The idea of trading two high draft picks for one unproven player would bother me if I were a Giants fan, especially since the difference between Eli, Rivers and Big Ben is fairly minimal, according to the draft experts. But you know that at least one of them will be the latest incarnation of Akili Smith or Ryan Leaf.

If Eli becomes a perennial Pro Bowler, then obviously it's a good trade. It'll take him at least a season to get acclimated though. I'd say the Giants are looking at another losing year but you never know in the NFL ... these days it's a short climb from cellar to Super Bowl.

I think Gman and to a lesser degree Ghost (sorry just had to say it) have brought up good points. It really does depend on "Emily" Manning but they gave up too much I think for someone who isn't clearly better at this point than Rivers or Roethlisberger

[QUOTE=smootsmack]... to a lesser degree Ghost (sorry just had to say it) [/QUOTE]

Hell hath no fury like a moderator scorned. :FIREdevil

They were sort of in the same place the Chargers were they have more holes in their game than just QB. And now Eli has to live up to the hype of the trade(Sorta like the Ricky williams thing). As far as the coaches I like the fact they got someone to come in a kick them hard. These guys gave up on their coach last year half way though the season. Also one big thing in Eli's favor is they have a pretty good QB coach in Kevin Gilbride.

I think 2004 will be rembered as a Manning year, i don't think the NFL has seen such a family of primadonnas . Eli stomped his feet and whined his way to the G-men making sure they gave up a bundle for him and Payton took th typically cash poor Colts to the cleaners with his huge contract this year.

The ironic part of this is Archie ended up being a star on a really bad team and wanted better for his sons but both have them to an extent have made sure thier respective teams will not be as good as they could be . Payton has contributed to the cap crunch which has seen rising stars like Washington leave the Colts because the Colts have invested so much in him. The Giants have in the past made some bizzare draft choices but next year they don't have a first pick which will likley be at least a top ten choice, and I know we have a rep for giving up draft picks for players but their we are trading for proven commodities (Coles, Morton etc) they have mortgaged the future on a kid who hasn't played a down in the NFL.

The other thing which occurs to me is the Giants were not one player away from the Superbowl, especially not QB. The dried out Collins was at least servicable back there sure Hillard and Toomer are good at WR and Shockley(sp?) is a great TE but Barber puts the ball on the floor far too often and is a huge liability and it was a push to say thier OL was any better than ours last year and say what you want the OL is were your offence starts forget that and nothing else works especially when you hav teams willing to blitz 8 and 9 players everydown .

On the defence they have Strahan and thats about it. DBs arent bad but they lost depth there this year and the LB core seem to have taken a step backwards and as for thier defensive line can they field a worse line than us?

Sure the Giants may be in full on rebuilding mode but you have to start laying foundation for the future sure in the next 3-4 years they could be strong but in this FA eara of the NFL most teams have a window of only 3-4 years before they are dismantled and rebuilt I am not sure you can build a team over a period of years any more.

Look at the Pats they have 2 superbowls in 3 years but not with the same teams. They picked up some key FA's who played thier socks off like Ted Washington that got them to the big game last year but it is coaching and focused front office that made the difference.

I like the Coughlin hire, but that is it, I don't like anything they have done the last 2 year's, they didn't figure out that thier problem's stemmed from letting all thier O-linemen go, and have the same problem again, they played out the draft about as stupid as can be, they could have traded down to cleveland and still picked river's, and could have obtained some more draft pick's, dumb!

I don't know how anyone can think the Gmen are making good decisions. I think it's quite foolish to give up what they did for Eli and letting Collins go. I know Collins didn't wanna be a back up, but I probably woulda kept Collins as the starter shit I wouldn't have been in this predicament if I was owner...
I would like to know more about the grievance that the Gmen organization filed against Coughlin and the Players Union...??? JoeCrisp or Matty, anyone?

Collins was expensive (and not even that great of a QB, in my book.) Collins also wanted to start, whereas the Giants wanted to put their first pick in to let him run that team from day 1. May as well start a new QB with a new coach.

I agree, Tiki fumbles way too much, but you could have a worse back. Ahman Green used to be a persistant fumbler, all it took was a single sweatband to keep it from happening.

As usual Daseal, you are just soooooooo wrong.

I understood what you meant about the OLine. My point is, regardless of their other offensive talent - which, other than Shockey, I think is moderate to good - their line stinks and, as we in Washington have known since Hog times, you are going nowhere w/out an OLine. The only thing they did to work on their biggest problem is sign a couple of Cleveland castoffs (of all the castoffs to sign - Cleveland's??) and draft Coughlin's son-in-law (who, to be fair, is supposed to be pretty good).

While Eli may eventually turn out to be a hot QB, he ain't gonna be nothing in his rookie year. In addition, as I have continually asserted, I think this is a team with a huge psychological problem. Every year there has been some locker room divisiveness. It appears to me, Fassell kept it under control by making everybody "feel good" and not pushing to hard. Coughlin is the polar opposite of this approach - and, I believe, it is going to cause this team to tear apart. Fingers they will be a pointing - at the coach, at each other, at the fans. All this and a rookie QB too? The Giants and 49'ers will be fighting for the cellar.

You see Daseal, the reason you don't get it is because this is all part of the right wing conspiracy to demoralize the Northern California and New York liberal blocs. Their teams are gonna suck soooooo bad, they won't want to leave their homes come November.

[QUOTE=Luxorreb]I would like to know more about the grievance that the Gmen organization filed against Coughlin and the Players Union...??? JoeCrisp or Matty, anyone?[/QUOTE]
Actually, it was unidentified Giants players that filed a complaint with the players' union against the Giants for unspecified violations of the collective bargaining agreement-- presumably the portion of that agreement that pertains to minicamps and other offseason workouts. Here is an excerpt from the CBA regarding these issues:

[b][i][QUOTE] [b][i]Section 1.[/i][/b] [b]Voluntary Workouts:[/b] No player shall be required to attend or participate in any off‑season workout program or classroom instruction of a Club other than as provided in Article XXXVI (Minicamps). Any other Club off‑season workout programs and classroom instruction sessions shall be voluntary and take place in the manner and time period set forth in this Article.

[b][i]Section 2.[/i][/b] [b]Time Periods:[/b] Clubs may schedule or conduct off-season workout programs for no more than fourteen total weeks, and no more than four workouts per week, for any individual player. Such workout programs shall not be permitted on weekends. During such workout programs, there may be no more than fourteen (14) days of organized team practice activity, to be defined by the Player/Club Operations Committee. Nothing herein shall prevent a Club from permitting an individual player to work-out on his own on weekends using Club facilities if he wishes to do so.

[i](b) Each year off-season workout programs may not begin, and players may not be asked to voluntarily attend any such program, earlier than a date to be agreed upon by the Management Council and the NFLPA, and announced before the conclusion of the prior regular season. Each year on a date to be agreed upon by the parties, each Club shall provide the Management Council and the NFLPA with the Club's schedule for its off-season workout program that year, and shall advise the Management Council and the NFLPA in writing in advance of any changes to that schedule.[/i]

[i](c) During the off-season program period, except for the fourteen days of organized team practice activity and mini-camps, players may be (1) at the Club facility no more than four hours per day, no more than four days per week, and not during weekends; and (2) on the field no more than ninety minutes per day. In addition, the Club may not specify to any player more than two specific hours a day during which it suggests that the player be at club facilities. Any player participating in an off-season workout program may select the other two hours in which he wishes to attend to conduct his weight training, etc., as long as he does so during the hours of operations of the Club's weight room.[/i]
[b][/b]
[b][i]Section 5.[/i][/b] [b]Miscellaneous:[/b] No Club official shall indicate to a player that the Club’s off‑season workout program or classroom instruction is not voluntary (or that a player’s failure to participate in a workout program or classroom instruction will result in the player’s failure to make the Club). Contact work (e.g., “live” blocking, tackling, pass rushing, bump‑and‑run) is expressly prohibited in all off‑season workouts. All Clubs, coaches and other Club officials shall follow all of the rules regarding off-season workouts set forth in Appendix L hereto.[/QUOTE]
It's hard to say which portion(s) of these rules might have been violated, but it could have been that Coach Coughlin exceeded the 90-minute on-field practice time, or suggested more than the allowable 2 specific hours of attendance at the club facility per day. It may have been suggested that attendance at the team's "voluntary" workouts was more than voluntary. There may have been a violation of the "no-contact" requirement during practice. At this point, it's anybody's guess.[/i][/b]

From what I understand is they made certein parts of mini camp mandatory and longer than allowed. I don't think they came out and say the practices were mandatory per se. The story I heard was is the coaches put up a sign saying a breakfast before practice was mandatory. Each team is only allowed so many mini camp days and so many full practice days. From what I heard this isn't Coughlin's first offense in this area.

[QUOTE=Daseal]Collins was expensive (and not even that great of a QB, in my book.) Collins also wanted to start, whereas the Giants wanted to put their first pick in to let him run that team from day 1. May as well start a new QB with a new coach.[/QUOTE]

Remember too that Collins had little value to Coughlin as someone who could impart his system onto Manning. Kerry Collins had as much to learn about Coughlin's offense as Eli Manning does - which makes his $7 million salary easy to drop. If Collins had some experience with Coughlin's system, I'm sure something could have been worked out.

There are only a few QB's in the league that have experience under Coughlin. Notably, we have the one with the most experience (Brunnell). Jaime Martin (who may still be with the Jets), Rob Johnson (Raiders?), Jay Fielder (Dolphins), Jonathon Quinn (Chiefs?), and David Garrard (still Jax) all played under Coughlin, and might have fit the bill. Interestingly, all except Garrard (I think) would have been available in free agency, and none were considered (or they refused any inquiries). What that says about Coughlin, or the Giants, or the players - who are noticably lacking in star power - I won't speculate.

The G-men are in serious trouble. Coughlin sees this and that alone is why he has already ordained Manning the franchise QB. When he was sucking in J-ville and left Leftwich on the bench, he had nobody to blame but himself. Starting a rookie deflects all of the criticism he will be facing and puts it on the QB's shoulders. "You can't hold me accountable, I have to play a rookie QB!"
And drafting the father of his daughters baby (not son-in-law...) smacks of poor headwork and nepotism. How the heck can he ever cut the guy?
Tiki Barber fumbles more than he scores, the o-line is horrible.....
Can't wait to play 'em!

The Giants are going to stink on wheat toast this year!

How about this for a clver move, however?

They signed as a free agent Jared Lorenzen, the big QB out of Kentucky. That is probably a smokescreen because J-Load - as he has come to be known - showed up at the minicamp weighing 292 lbs. He played last year at 275. Actually, the secret deal the Giants have with J-Load is that he will be starting at OT this year... ;)

I think the Giants have a solid Offense minus the line, but their D seems to be getting worse everytime I see their roster. Emmons is the only ok LB they have on their roster, and the D-line is nothing without 92 unless Hand proves he is not a has been which could help them. Also their DB's are good when healthy whenever that is. So overall they have an ok offense and a suspect D but they did get Eli, who can only do so much even if he turns out to be a stud (similiar to Peyton with no D in Indy his first few seasons). The worst thing of all for the Giants is not only are their best players starting to get on the old side they have no first round pick next year which will more than likely be top 10. Could be a long few years for the Giants.

[QUOTE=redwagonskins]The G-men are in serious trouble. Coughlin sees this and that alone is why he has already ordained Manning the franchise QB. When he was sucking in J-ville and left Leftwich on the bench, he had nobody to blame but himself. Starting a rookie deflects all of the criticism he will be facing and puts it on the QB's shoulders. "You can't hold me accountable, I have to play a rookie QB!"
And drafting the father of his daughters baby (not son-in-law...) smacks of poor headwork and nepotism. How the heck can he ever cut the guy?
Tiki Barber fumbles more than he scores, the o-line is horrible.....
Can't wait to play 'em![/QUOTE]
Though Leftwich wasn't on the Jags when Coughlin was there, you're absolutely right about Coughlin's desire for Manning. It's also the reason Manning wanted to be in NY rather than SD - Schottenheimer will have had three years to improve the Chargers, and it's unlikely they'll be measurably better than last year. That means a new coach in SD, so Manning would get a new system, wasting his rookie season.

In defense of the Giants, Chris Snee (my grand-baby's daddy) is a solid prospect, and among the best interior linemen in the draft this year. He wasn't a reach, but it will be awkward at the dinner table after he (inevitably) gets chewed out.

I sure hope not!!! :httr:

Poor Eli will always be comparted to Payton, but Payton had something Eli does not. Peyton's first year was promising but the record sucked. As a result, they were in the position to draft Edgerrin James, and the rest is history. Since next years pick was traded for Eli, he will not have another young weapon to make his life easier.

BrudLee, thanks for the correction but I see you got my point. I really think Eli is in a bad situation and there is no relief. The fans of NYG are already pissed that their team quit last year and is complaining about working in the off-season (right or wrong). Who are they going to stary, the Bachelor? No way, and if he starts and loses then the fans will be screaming for heads. Eli is going to take the brunt of it and he ain't getting help in next years draft. Clevelands fans made Couch cry, imagine what NY fans are going to do to him. He's incredibly lucky he's not in Philly!