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Dave Butz Baby! 06-11-2004 03:43 PM

Once again our man JoeCrisp throws logic and realism into the debate.

For which I am glad! Gives me a chance to make a cheesy comment about it and get one post closer to being Post-Blue_Beanie!

C'mon.. 26 more to go....


saden1 06-11-2004 03:44 PM

"You can say what you want, but turn on the film and watch me," he said. "You will see you have a cornerback who can cover any receiver on any team. You call it what you want. It's all about production. Am I the best corner? Yeah. I'm consistent. I don't think there's one thing about me that stands out. I can tackle, I can cover one-on-one better than anyone else. I think I am the best."

Someone has become cocky. In all the years he has been here in Washington I have never heard Champ speak like this. More power to you Champ.

SmootSmack 06-11-2004 03:56 PM

Check out Pasquarelli's column today on "dead money" players and you can see that many teams have salary issues


memphisskin 06-11-2004 06:00 PM

[QUOTE=joecrisp]The Skins were losers for six years before Snyder took over. The fact that they went to the playoffs in '99 is more a reflection of the fact that Snyder lit a fire under Turner's ass than any kind of indication that things were actually headed in the right direction prior to Snyder's purchase of the team. This team was listless and directionless prior to Snyder's purchase. After Snyder bought the team, there still didn't seem to be a clear plan, other than throwing a lot of money at aging, big-name veterans. Snyder made a fool of himself by taking a devil-may-care attitude towards the salary cap, and he will probably never shake the "careless spender" label.

While on the surface it may appear that Snyder hasn't learned anything, and he will never change, his tactics have been refined somewhat since that nightmare 2000 spending spree. He still spends lots of money on free agents, but more often than not, he spends that money on younger players with upside. Yes, there have been disasters, but every team has them. Despite what the Snyder-bashing members of the media would have you believe, the Redskins are not the only team that has had their share of free agency busts.


First, '99 Snyder was pretty much hands off, he didn't start lighting fires until 2000 and look how well that panned out. We may have been losers for six years before Snyder but we've been losers for five years with him too so he does not escape blame.

In today's NFL you cannot spend recklessly with no repercussions. Sorry if this is a news flash, but it's going to cost us some very popular and productive players in the near future. Every team has had some busts, but not the $7 mil busts that we've had year after year after year. And it's frustrating, because every year I believe, even more so this year, only to get my heart broken in the fall.

I'm just saying that Snyder has announced every friggin move as "his move", and every year we've slid further and further away from contention. We were 5-11 and while some of it was Spurrier's fault, who hired him? Who fired Norv, and who placed Norv in a situation in which he was virtually guaranteed to fail. Snyder is a great owner, at times, but he's also impatient, impetuous, and not completely innocent of the trouble the Skins are currently in.

SmootSmack 06-11-2004 06:35 PM

Snyder shouldn't be absolved of blame entirely for the past several years of the Redskins, but you can't deny that his approach has changed for the better. Until the Redskins win a Super Bowl or at least make the playoffs, Snyder will not be forgiven for the 2000 debacle and maybe not even then. And that's a shame. Clearly that was a team that was built for the moment and not for the future. Imagine though, how different it would have been if Davis hadn't fumbled in the end zone against the Cardinals and the Skins hadn't missed an extra point in that game. Or if Eddie Murray hadn't missed potential game winning field goals in back to back games against division opponents? Anyhow, since then Snyder has continued to spend money, but he's done it primarily on rising stars like Coles, Portis, and Washington or to lock up key Redskins like Arrington and Jansen. And there shouldn't be many more missed extra points with John Hall around.

As for the coaches, everyone kept saying Snyder had to go and get a football guy to run things. So he got Marty. Unfortunately, Schottenheimer alienated some key Redskins (i.e. Darrell Green) and had to go. And as for Spurrier, let's not act like we were the only team going after Spurrier. The Bucs and I believe the Saints were after him as well.

Now it's come full circle back to Gibbs. To me that is a huge sign that Snyder isn't about getting the credit but about winning. How many of you really believe that anybody would give any credit to Snyder if the Redskins win the Super Bowl?

joecrisp 06-11-2004 07:25 PM

I didn't say Snyder is free of any blame for the past five years-- he's learned some very hard lessons in that time, and most of them are his own fault. I'm just saying that the team he purchased wasn't exactly the model of success and consistency. Turner knew that new ownership would spell the end of the road for him unless he produced a playoff-caliber team, and Snyder permitted him to prove he could do that. After the '99 playoff season, many around the league suspected that the Skins were only a few key players away from being Super Bowl contenders, so Snyder tried to go out and buy those few pieces to complete Turner's championship puzzle. Keep in mind, there were a lot of people-- not just Skins fans-- that projected the Skins would indeed win the Super Bowl in 2000, after Snyder went on his now infamous and record-setting spending spree. When things started to go sour, Snyder was clearly upset that his enormous investment wasn't paying off in the win column, and he had a right to be. Turner's team-- much like Spurrier's future Redskins team-- lacked discipline and accountability, and that was ultimately their downfall. That was Norv Turner's prerogative.

So what does Snyder do? He hires one of the most discipline-oriented coaches in the league, hoping that Schottenheimer would instill the discipline and work ethic that Turner's team had lacked. He gave Schottenheimer the power and latitude that he had been criticized for denying to Turner. The vets chafed under Marty's iron-fisted approach, and Schottenheimer's unimaginitive gameplans put fans to sleep. That was Marty Schottenheimer's prerogative.

Spurrier makes himself available, and Snyder seizes the opportunity to hire one of college football's most legendary and creative offensive minds. Spurrier says he just wants to coach football, and leave the personnel decisions to the Front Office. One problem-- the team had been built around Schottenheimer's 3-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust philosophy. So the next year, Snyder goes out and obtains the weapons Spurrier needs to run his high-flying offense, using some very creative, if unorthodox, methods to do so. Spurrier fails-- due to a lack of team discipline, an inexperienced coaching staff, poor gameplanning, and even poorer execution on the field. Spurrier concedes his own failure, and walks away. That was Steve Spurrier's prerogative.

Finally, the moment all Redskins fans-- including Dan Snyder-- had been waiting 12 years for: Joe Gibbs decides it's time to coach the Redskins again. Snyder not only makes him the highest paid coach in the history of the league-- he also names him Team President, and gives him final say on all personnel decisions. Snyder gives Gibbs the carte blanche to pay whatever salaries are necessary to obtain the most experienced and knowledgeable assistant coaches available. Gibbs' staff assembles a wish-list of free agents and trade targets, and Snyder promptly goes out and gets them. Not once does Snyder claim ownership of any of the acquisitions as "his moves". Gibbs makes it clear to all who will listen that whatever decisions are made are made "as a team"-- Gibbs and the coaching staff huddling with Cerrato and the scouting staff, evaluating the talent available, and subsequently handing the prioritized shopping list to Snyder.

One potential problem: doom and gloom has been forecast for the Skins in terms of the future cap situation. Supposedly, Snyder-- a self-made multi-millionaire-- isn't smart enough to figure out that backloaded contracts eventually lead to future salary cap woes. Supposedly, he will have to dismantle Gibbs' Redskins after three years. Of course, that theory assumes that the salary cap continues to increase at a constant rate-- which would not accomodate contract structures whose inflation exceeds that rate. In reality, the salary cap is set to expand by an unprecedented margin when the new television contracts are negotiated next year. Will this provide enough cushion to completely negate the inflation of the contracts Snyder has recently signed? Maybe not-- but it will certainly leave the Skins in much better shape than many casual observers expect. If there's one thing Dan Snyder is not, it's a casual observer. Perhaps that's not such a bad thing after all.

memphisskin 06-14-2004 12:26 PM

Joe, I respect your opinon of Snyder but I have one as well.

I think the '00 team would have been better served if Snyder didn't undermine training camp by turning it into a moneymaking enterprise under the guise of "bringing it to the fans." It was what it was, a way for Snyder to make money. It wasn't particularly profitable, and it completely trashed our season by placing even more focus on Norv who was noticeably uncomfortable in the spotlight. So out goes Norv and his undisciplined ways, but were those ways so undisciplined when we were a botched field goal from the NFC championship? Let's agree to disagree on Norv.

So in the press conference announcing Schottenheimer Dan Snyder says "This is my stamp on the Washington Redskins." Schottenheimer immediately turns off Bruce Smith with Oklahoma drills and then dresses down the most popular Skin by telling him his technique stinks. I guess Snyder is the only one with intelligence, because Schottenheimer could not possibly know what he was doing. I agree the DG thing was classless, but was he right? Could Schottenheimer possibly have a motive of telling his two young cornerbacks that they could not follow DG's style because it was predicated on his rare speed and closing ability? Just a thought, and Schottenheimer didn't have to endear himself to anyone because A) he's the coach and B) he's the "owner's guy". Well Jeff George soon proves that he's not the answer, ducking an invisible rush and showing no heart so MS has to put in Tony Banks who's fresh off being cut in Dallas. There can be no passing game because Banks barely knows the plays, so everything is shrunk in half and Davis becomes the focal point. We go 8-8, finishing strong when the team stops fighting the coach and buys into his system.

Spurrier is Spurrier, he begins his NFL tenure by saying that he's going to do things his way. This is music to Snyder's ears because this is exactly what he's been doing since he bought the team. However, SS also begins by ridiculing the work ethic of Jim Haslett, which should have been the signal to all Skins fans that this wasn't going to work out. While Gibbs placed a cot in his office, SS placed his golf clubs. By suggesting that he could outsmart rather than outwork the other coaches, SS placed a bullseye on his back that every hard working coach would go out of their way to nail. And Snyder couldn't gauge this in his exhaustive interview process? But this was his guy.

So now Snyder brings in Gibbs. A great move, a bit unimaginative, but a great move because Gibbs won't just outsmart you, he'll outwork you too. Gibbs brought those four SB trips and three trophies, and if Vermeil and Parcells can come back and be successful then so can Gibbs.

There is no gloom and doom regarding the Skins cap future. There is but one fact. When you sign free agents to big money deals with big signing bonuses, at some point that money has to show up. It's already beginning to show up, witness Arrington's new deal last year to bring down his cap number and the unsuccessful attempt to get Samuels to renegotiate. Now I applaud Snyder's business sense and these revenue streams allow him the cash flow to constantly give out these large signing bonuses. But the new tv contract might not be as large as you think. But I saw what happened in Dallas and San Francisco and the fact is it will happen here in Washington. The gloom and doom that the journalists predict, Snyder and Cerrato have said that it is coming here as well. It is Snyder who has said that this team has a three year window, probably two now.

Can this team compete for a championship, I surely hope so because I'm starving for a competitive team. Can this FO do what other's have not been able to, and beat the salary cap, well that I'm not so sure about.

Hogskin 06-14-2004 01:03 PM

Excellent post, Joe. I agree 100%. And I would add that the doom-and-gloomers (Sportsline's Prisco, a couple other writers, and some of the folks here), are greatly underestimating Snyder's team. The same warning comments were made about 2-3 years down the road after his FIRST massive round of free agent signings. Well that time has come and gone, and he is still signing like crazy. And will be 2-3 years from now. Several of the contracts will be renegotiated. And the guys that balk at that (like Bailey did) will be used to bring in other top talent. There are 3-4 owners in the NFL that have figured out this mode of operating in the cap structure. We Redskin fans are very fortunate that Snyder is one of them.

Defensewins 06-14-2004 02:31 PM

[QUOTE=Hogskin]...... There are 3-4 owners in the NFL that have figured out this mode of operating in the cap structure. We Redskin fans are very fortunate that Snyder is one of them.[/QUOTE]

I have to respectfully disagree with you.
Would that be '3-4 owners including Snyder' that have figured out how to spend a ton of money and field a losing team? Because that is the NFL Owners model Snyder has created. Other than one season we were in the playoffs under coach Norv, the Redskins have been frustratingly bad. I do not feel lucky since Snyder has taken over as owner.
I would describe Snyder's owner/management style as trial by error.
First he tries to buy a championship and fails. So he then tries a more toned down system of spending valuable draft picks on restricted FA's. The jury is still out on that one.....

I think the N.E. Patriots have created a better model for an NFL owner to follow. They have won two of the last three Super bowls by spending cautiously. They continue to stock pile their team with more and more talent through the NFL draft. They also purchase free agents but they go the cheap free agent route.
They get inexpensive FA's, which is opposite of Snyder's philosophy.

Man, did this thread get off topic!

Hogskin 06-14-2004 03:06 PM

[QUOTE=Defensewins]Would that be '3-4 owners including Snyder' that have figured out how to spend a ton of money and field a losing team? Because that is the NFL Owners model Snyder has created.[/QUOTE]

Defense, I'm sure disappointed to see how down you are on our team and the entire organization. I think Snyder is an excellent owner. Please, if you are going to quote me in the future, do not totally twist the meaning of my words. I specifically referred to Snyder's command of the NFL cap system. Obviously, you have joined with the uninformed group of writers who do not understand the cap strategy employed by the Redskins, Patriots, Broncos, and maybe one or two others. It works, as you will see. Current evidence is the "wild spending" going on this year after the "experts" predicted 3-4 years ago we would be in "cap hell" in 2-3 years.

Now, I did not say I liked everything Dan Snyder has done. Obviously, it has not yet worked. But his biggest (BY FAR) mistake was in selecting head coaches - first sticking with a proven below-average head coach in Turner, then with Marty, while trying to bring some discipline, then with an extremely disappointing attempt with a proven college winner. No, he has not done well in that department, UNTIL NOW. No one is accusing him of blowing it with his latest coaching choice. And even many experts over the past few seasons felt the player signings were very positive.

SO, bottom line - I'm damn glad to have Snyder as an owner. And from posts in other threads, I believe the great majority of guys on this site agree. You will be joining us when he brings us the SB win after this or next season. ALL of the fair weather fans will return to the fold then...

SmootSmack 06-15-2004 02:22 AM

Hogskin, generally speaking I agree with you here though I wouldn't necessarily say those who disagree with us and think Snyder has done a poor job are fairweather fans...if that's what you were saying

Defense, I think Bill Belichick is a very big reason for the Patriots' success the past couple of years. Now, we have someone better than Belichick

Memphis, personally I sided with Marty on the D. Green situation. Green got by for years on his speed and maybe I'm a bit bias because I don't like Green the person. As a player I loved him, as a person not so much. But regardless, the problem was that what he did to Green, publicly dressing him down during training camp is just something you don't do in Redskins World. No matter if he thought he deserved it or not. Schottenheimer seemingly made his bold move when he cut Centers in the spring time but then he seemed to get power hungry after that and started alienating the wrong people.

JWsleep 06-15-2004 02:53 AM

We probably shouldn't forget just how young Danny boy is. I think he's getting better at this, though it's been chaos around here until Gibbs came back.

The big knock on Snyder is that he meddles and undercuts his coaches. That just isn't going to happen with Gibbs, so things will surely get better, and not just because Gibbs is far and away the best coach Snyder's had. Plus, as they win, Danny will be happy, and learn to let the coaches coach, and to let them handle the players, etc.

Anyway, Danny is what, like 40? How old was JKC when he got it together? How old was Roony when the Steelers got their act together? The kid is learning. And no one can doubt that he loves the skins.

Deon, George, Bruce Smith, the coaching changes, are all him trying [U][B]too hard [/B] [/U] to make it happen right away. Hey, if I were a young billionaire, I'd probably do the same things. Now he lucked into Gibbs, and Gibbs will show him how to build a winning franchise, from top to bottom. And that is good for all of us, fair weather fans, warpathers, whatever! :twocents:

joecrisp 06-15-2004 07:03 AM

[QUOTE=smootsmack]Defense, I think Bill Belichick is a very big reason for the Patriots' success the past couple of years. Now, we have someone better than Belichick.[/QUOTE]
Somehow, the fact that the Patriots are coached by Bill Belichick seems to go unnoticed whenever people discuss how ingenious the Patriots' salary cap management has been over the past few years. Thank you, smootsmack, for pointing out that the Patriots' success over that time had a little something to do with the guy patrolling the sidelines. Suppose the Redskins had been coached by Belichick all this time-- how would Dan Snyder's cap management be viewed now? Yes, Snyder has been petulant and impatient with his coaches-- [i]because none of them were good enough.[/i] But his approach to cap management might be viewed a little differently if any of those coaches were even nearly as skilled as Belichick or Gibbs. There might be a few more trophies in that case at Redskins Park to account for all that "wild spending".

Hogskin 06-15-2004 08:55 AM

Smack, yes, I think my post was a bit harsh - I apologize, Defense!! The reason I mentioned "fairweather" was just that I was getting so much negativity and pessimism about Snyder, even after the hiring of Gibbs. I figured that "when" this team proves itself to be wildly successful, there will be a 180-degree shift in the attitude about Snyder and the team. Really a poor comment on my part.

memphisskin 06-15-2004 05:16 PM

Joe I think it all boils down to Danny not hiring a GM. I think a lot of the bad moves would have been avoided if he had a solid football guy in place. I have never been a fan of Cerrato, I think he is a yes man that Danny put in place to give his moves some legitimacy. I loved it when Jerry Jones meddled in Dallas because it was sure to bring down the franchise and lo and behold it did. So when Snyder became JJ X 2 it really bummed me out, because I know that he has the best intentions but for four years he just would not admit that he wasn't the best man for the job.

It's his money, but it really is our team. We buy the merchandise, we fill the seats, we cheer the Skins on win or lose, we're in here debating Redskins football a month and a half before training camp. The only thing I have to go by is what Snyder has done so far, and the only positive thing that he's done so far is to bring back Joe Gibbs. It's been said that we didn't have the proper coach on the sidelines, how on earth could we ever find out? Five coaches in five years, with a different excuse for getting rid of each one. That says it all to me, because there has been one constant throughout. Now I don't blame the young guy for trying, I blame him for continuing to try it on his own terms. My complaint is that he is not a GM and we still do not have one. I trust Gibbs, but it is awfully difficult for one man to succeed in the NFL doing both jobs.

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