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-   -   Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter? (http://www.thewarpath.net/nfl-draft-central/16898-should-senior-bowl-combine-workouts-matter.html)

Sheriff Gonna Getcha 01-29-2007 12:30 AM

Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
I love to watch the Senior Bowl and the combine workouts, but do they really matter? Each year players watch their draft stocks rise and fall based on the Wonderlic, 40-times, etc. Take, for example, Terrell Suggs. Terrell Suggs was thought to be a top five selection in the 2003 draft, but slid down to the Ravens because of slow 40 times in pre-draft workouts. Vince Young's draft stock might have slipped a few spots due to his Wonderlic score (a wildly inaccurate predictor of football acumen). Players are now so polished up before player interviews at the Combine that I don't think that 10 minute player interviews can be that meaningful.

In my mind, the Senior Bowl is almost totally worthless as a scouting tool since it provides such a small "sample" and is a game involving very basic schemes, new coaches, and new teammates. The combine seems almost as useless. I would think that, save the medical examination portion of the combine, it too has minimal value.

Obviously I am not a scout, so would someone please explain how they are useful and why a player's draft stock can ascend or plummet so rapidly?

hooskins 01-29-2007 01:50 AM

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
I am obviously not a scout either, and I do agree with how they are somewhat overrated. I do feel, however, since the media MAINLY has access to things like that, rather than records of personal team interviews, workouts, etc, the media(and Scouts Inc or whoever) tend to overhype those things.


In my opinion, which I think most teams do, you must look at everything altogether to determine if you want a particular player. What would matter to me the most would be how they did in college, level of competition, physical pluses and minuses, and interviews.

That was in no particular order.

riggoraider 01-29-2007 02:37 AM

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;273206]I love to watch the Senior Bowl and the combine workouts, but do they really matter? Each year players watch their draft stocks rise and fall based on the Wonderlic, 40-times, etc. Take, for example, Terrell Suggs. Terrell Suggs was thought to be a top five selection in the 2003 draft, but slid down to the Ravens because of slow 40 times in pre-draft workouts. Vince Young's draft stock might have slipped a few spots due to his Wonderlic score (a wildly inaccurate predictor of football acumen). Players are now so polished up before player interviews at the Combine that I don't think that 10 minute player interviews can be that meaningful.

In my mind, the Senior Bowl is almost totally worthless as a scouting tool since it provides such a small "sample" and is a game involving very basic schemes, new coaches, and new teammates. The combine seems almost as useless. I would think that, save the medical examination portion of the combine, it too has minimal value.

Obviously I am not a scout, so would someone please explain how they are useful and why a player's draft stock can ascend or plummet so rapidly?[/quote]

Combines, in my opinion, are not useless because pro scouts know how fast the pro games are played. They, also, know what measurements it takes to play in the NFL at each position whether it's speed and agility, strength or the knowlege of the game itself.

College players have been playing against guys who are never going to see a NFL field and although they may have dominated them it does not mean that they will be a dominant professional football player. This system just as anything is in life is not totally fool proof but it does give them some kind of idea how to spend their money. It is similar to buying a car, you are going to check the engine, kick the tires, test drive it etc. etc. because you want to know what you are getting before you purchase it because once you buy it, it is yours to keep. Just because it looks good on the lot does not mean it is going to perform well on the road.

dmek25 01-29-2007 05:45 AM

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
the combine can help if college teams info is way out of wack with the truth. but it is all about the game. that should be the most important thing

AlvinWalton'sNeckBrace 01-29-2007 05:48 AM

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
well, it might all be good for getting a general feel for a guy's character and his physical characteristics. All that stuff also benefits the guys that aren't top 10 way more than the guys one sees every night on sports center. It gives scouts a chance to see guys that maybe don't have as much tape of their play, especially late bloomers and d3-d1aa guys

marius 01-29-2007 10:46 AM

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
I suppose that these things just provide another small piece in the jigsaw for NFL teams trying to evaluate individual players. An outstandingly good, or bad, performance at the Senior Bowl or Combine can impact a rating. It must be a really tough job trying to pick in the draft as everyone will second guess almost every selection and a proper assessment can't be made for at least a couple of seasons.

Still, for my money it must be one of the most exciting parts of being involved in an NFL team - the chance to unearth talent that others didn't spot. Some teams definitely seem to be better than others at it.

Sadly, we don't know if the Redskins are any good or not as they always trade away top picks for crap veterans. I pray that they don't do that this time...

GTripp0012 01-29-2007 11:52 AM

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;273206]I love to watch the Senior Bowl and the combine workouts, but do they really matter? Each year players watch their draft stocks rise and fall based on the Wonderlic, 40-times, etc. Take, for example, Terrell Suggs. Terrell Suggs was thought to be a top five selection in the 2003 draft, but slid down to the Ravens because of slow 40 times in pre-draft workouts. Vince Young's draft stock might have slipped a few spots due to his Wonderlic score (a wildly inaccurate predictor of football acumen). Players are now so polished up before player interviews at the Combine that I don't think that 10 minute player interviews can be that meaningful.

In my mind, the Senior Bowl is almost totally worthless as a scouting tool since it provides such a small "sample" and is a game involving very basic schemes, new coaches, and new teammates. The combine seems almost as useless. I would think that, save the medical examination portion of the combine, it too has minimal value.

Obviously I am not a scout, so would someone please explain how they are useful and why a player's draft stock can ascend or plummet so rapidly?[/quote]It's nice to see a guy play in a game coached by NFL teams, and see how he can play in those schemes.

But unless you are Jon Gruden or Mike Nolan, I don't think you've learned very much. You're spot on that a one game sample says very little when compared to 3-4 years of college film and statistics. Those things have to be the driving force behind a player's stock, not his workout numbers.

Mattyk 01-29-2007 12:09 PM

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
The Senior Bowl and Combine should matter, but ultimately I think scouts take a little too much stock in these things and get too hyped or too down on certain players as a result.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha 01-29-2007 12:38 PM

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
[QUOTE=Mattyk72;273276]The Senior Bowl and Combine should matter, but ultimately I think scouts take a little too much stock in these things and get too hyped or too down on certain players as a result.[/QUOTE]

I probably overstated my argument. My basic point is that I think that most draft boards should be set by now as 40-times, Wonderlic scores, and Senior Bowl performances are of far less significance than on the field performances in college. Perhaps the Senior Bowl and Combine can create red flags (e.g., a player who is recovering from a serious knee injury is examined and determined to have suffered permanent injury). However, I don't think player's stock should rapidly ascend or descend based on the Senior Bowl or Combine (save for players with red flags revealed at the Combine).

dmek25 01-29-2007 12:39 PM

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
does the name mike mumala sound familiar? workout warrior, but couldnt play for crap

steveo395 01-29-2007 03:22 PM

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
[quote=dmek25;273292]does the name mike mumala sound familiar? workout warrior, but couldnt play for crap[/quote]
or Adam Archuleta

sportscurmudgeon 01-29-2007 04:38 PM

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
One important thing you can get a peek at during the prep time leading up to the Super Bowl is the "coachability" of the various players. Many of the guys at the Senior Bowl are not the big name stars and lots of them are just hoping to get picked on Draft Weekend. So, if you're going to invest a fifth round pick in someone, it's nice to know that he's coachable and he takes instruction constructively and then takes those lessons onto the field.

Sure beats drafting some guy you only saw on film who surprisingly dropped to you because he's a head case and a royal pain in the a$$.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha 01-29-2007 04:42 PM

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon;273406]One important thing you can get a peek at during the prep time leading up to the Super Bowl is the "coachability" of the various players. Many of the guys at the Senior Bowl are not the big name stars and lots of them are just hoping to get picked on Draft Weekend. So, if you're going to invest a fifth round pick in someone, it's nice to know that he's coachable and he takes instruction constructively and then takes those lessons onto the field.

Sure beats drafting some guy you only saw on film who surprisingly dropped to you because he's a head case and a royal pain in the a$$.[/QUOTE]

But, as has been pointed out, who besides Mike Nolan and Jon Gruden would know how "coachable" one of this year's prospects is based on the Senior Bowl?

That Guy 01-29-2007 08:14 PM

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;273408]But, as has been pointed out, who besides Mike Nolan and Jon Gruden would know how "coachable" one of this year's prospects is based on the Senior Bowl?[/quote]

anyone who watches the full week's worth of practice and drill film.

the drills are more generally important than the game.

GiantsSuck703 01-29-2007 11:21 PM

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 
I think its worthless personally, look at the names that have shot up the draft charts because of the combine:

Kyle Bollar
Idrees Bashiir
Dwayne Robertson
Ricardo Coclough

Now those guys arent terrible, but there far from worth where they were drafted at


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