Free Scooter Libby
 

Christopher Hitchens de-mythologizes the leak case and calls for Bush to pardon him here:

[url=http://www.slate.com/id/2168642/]Free Scooter Libby! - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine[/url]

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

According to this article the case has a good chance of being overturned on appeal so why not just let that run it's course? I assume by the thread title you are one of those calling on President Bush to issue a pardon right?

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=djnemo65;319949]According to this article the case has a good chance of being overturned on appeal so why not just let that run it's course? I assume by the thread title you are one of those calling on President Bush to issue a pardon right?[/quote]

The reason I would support a pardon,as oppossed to letting the wheels of justice turn at their leisurely pace, is that Patrick Fitzgerald and Judge Walton seem determined to send Libby to jail before his appeals, which as Hitchens points out are strong on the merits, are allowed to be heard. He could spend three years in jail before an appeals court finally gets around to throwing his conviction out, which they certainly should.

Fitzgerald should have put a stop to this as soon as he realized Valerie Wilson was not covered by the Identities Protection Act. He didn't in my opinion for two reasons:

1. The press would have turned their venom on him and accused him of covering up, and

2. Prosecutors exist to prosecute people. There is saying among their tribe that goes something like, "Anyone can convict a guilty man, but you have to be a really good lawyer to convict someone that's innocent." Witness Mike Nifong.

Meanwhile Dick Armitage is already on his third martini.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

What about Paris Hilton? When will they free poor Miss. Hilton? Why aren't there people advocating for her release? Evil prevails when good men fail to act. Call your Congressman and Senators folks and let them know you want Paris freed.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[QUOTE=saden1;319985]What about Paris Hilton? When will they free poor Miss. Hilton? Why aren't there people advocating for her release? Evil prevails when good men fail to act. Call your Congressmen and Senator folks and let them know you want Paris freed.[/QUOTE]

Damn straight. It's unjust I tell ya. Unjust!

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=saden1;319985]What about Paris Hilton? When will they free poor Miss. Hilton? Why aren't there people advocating for her release? Evil prevails when good men fail to act. Call your Congressman and Senators folks and let them know you want Paris freed.[/quote]

But she does have an advocate. Hitch strikes again:

[url=http://www.slate.com/id/2168128/fr/flyout]TheÂ*creepy populism surrounding Paris Hilton andÂ*Scooter Libby. - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine[/url]

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

Hitchens like fairness and in both cases the defendants have been treated very atypical with regard to normal practice of our justice system. It does reak of being unfair.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

I don't feel an ounce of sympathy for Paris Hilton but I do agree that it exposes our collective hypocricy. I haven't seen her tape (there are a million better looking girls doing that on the internet) but it seems like everyone else has, and it does seem to hover over the whole spectacle.

The case of Michelle Wie is similiar if less vulgar. I heard the guy who does D.C Sportscenter on the radio yesterday mildly ridiculing her when he announced her withdrawal from the John Deere Classic. People who understand golf know that she was never anything special but the machine that seeks to create the next big thing was determined not to let that be an obstacle. They created all this hype, all the while ignoring the legitimate accomplishments of someone like Morgan Pressel, and when she doesn't measure up they pile on as though she were somehow to blame. What a sordid business.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;320009]I don't feel an ounce of sympathy for Paris Hilton but I do agree that it exposes our collective hypocricy. I haven't seen her tape (there are a million better looking girls doing that on the internet) but it seems like everyone else has, and it does seem to hover over the whole spectacle.

The case of Michelle Wie is similiar if less vulgar. I heard the guy who does D.C Sportscenter on the radio yesterday mildly ridiculing her when he announced her withdrawal from the John Deere Classic. People who understand golf know that she was never anything special but the machine that seeks to create the next big thing was determined not to let that be an obstacle. They created all this hype, all the while ignoring the legitimate accomplishments of someone like Morgan Pressel, and when she doesn't measure up they pile on as though she were somehow to blame. What a sordid business.[/QUOTE]

Poor Michelle Wie needs to step away from the spotlight and just live her life for a while. She's on the verge of a Capriati like fall. I heard Wie was doing some pretty nasty stuff during a Pro-Am in Maryland a couple of weeks ago. Such as using her clubs for...um...purposes other than hitting the ball. Shocked everyone.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=SmootSmack;320010]Poor Michelle Wie needs to step away from the spotlight and just live her life for a while. She's on the verge of a Capriati like fall. I heard Wie was doing some pretty nasty stuff during a Pro-Am in Maryland a couple of weeks ago. Such as using her clubs for...um...purposes other than hitting the ball. Shocked everyone.[/quote]

I'm going to go look for that on the internet right now. Wait. Is this some sort of de-constructionist commentary on your part? Like when Sandler would do "crazy one armed man"?

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;320014]I'm going to go look for that on the internet right now. Wait. Is this some sort of de-constructionist commentary on your part? Like when Sandler would do "crazy one armed man"?[/QUOTE]

[url=http://www.mylpga.com/boards/showthread.php?p=42197]Wie played the Pro-Am for lpga championship - myLPGA - LPGA Message Boards at the LPGA FORUM[/url]

Scroll down to post #4

And supposedly there was more stuff that wasn't published in that article. I heard from a friend who heard from a friend who said that she'd been messing around

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

When you said nasty, I thought you meant like you know...nasty. It just goes to show how pervasive the problem is. When someone as high-minded as myself can fall victim to it...

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;320017]When you said nasty, I thought you meant like you know...nasty. It just goes to show how pervasive the problem is. When someone as high-minded as myself can fall victim to it...[/QUOTE]

I did mean nasty. Like I said, it was supposedly at the same event that I posted but those "nasty details" were not published in that article.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=SmootSmack;320018]I did mean nasty. Like I said, it was supposedly at the same event that I posted but those "nasty details" were not published in that article.[/quote]

Like Janet Jackson nasty or kick the dog nasty? I suppose we would have heard about kick the dog nasty.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;320020]Like Janet Jackson nasty or kick the dog nasty? I suppose we would have heard about kick the dog nasty.[/QUOTE]

Like I don't think she's 18 and I feel kind of weird talking about it nasty.

Free Paris Hilton!

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

Well that's plain enough. Back to Scooter Libby:

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

Screw Libby. I want to know what she did.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=djnemo65;320035]Screw Libby. I want to know what she did.[/quote]

Who was it that was looking for an honest man? The Red Head maybe. Well, here he is.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

Scooter Libby got caught lying. The penalty for lying is a bit much but then again he should have come clean. The difference between him and Richard Armitage is that Armitage was cooperative from the get-go. He probably pointed fingers at Libby.

Also, Libby's character witness list was atrocious. His lawyer should have been disbarred for even submitting the list to the court. Team Libby wasn't able to convince anyone involved in his trial that he was innocent. We'll just have to see how his appeals goes.

I would hate to see the President pardon him as that would set a very bad precedence. I mean, he wouldn't pardon a mentally [URL="http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17670"]retarded dude while he was governor[/URL] so what makes Libby so special?

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

Libby is just the fall guy. but, to be the fall guy, you have to take the fall. he was wrong, and belongs in jail. why all the fuss? old goofball Bush will pardon him, anyway

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[QUOTE=saden1;320038]Scooter Libby got caught lying. The penalty for lying is a bit much but then again he should have come clean. The difference between him and Richard Armitage is that Armitage was cooperative from the get-go. He probably pointed fingers at Libby.

Also, Libby's character witness list was atrocious. His lawyer should have been disbarred for even submitting the list to the court. Team Libby wasn't able to convince anyone involved in his trial that he was innocent. We'll just have to see how his appeals goes.

I would hate to see the President pardon him as that would set a very bad precedence. I mean, he wouldn't pardon a mentally [URL="http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17670"]retarded dude while he was governor[/URL] so what makes Libby so special?[/QUOTE]
Did you even read the article? Exactly where did he lie? The man got convicted of having a different recollection of ONE phone call about a completely different subject. There was no evidence anywhere that he actually lied. It was simply a he said-he said issue.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=FRPLG;320061]Did you even read the article? Exactly where did he lie? The man got convicted of having a different recollection of ONE phone call about a completely different subject. There was no evidence anywhere that he actually lied. It was simply a he said-he said issue.[/quote]


Exactly. Try to remember the exact contents or even the general thrust of something you typed a thousand posts ago. But the Judge wouldn't let a memory expert testify.

I don't see any reason to assume Russert was telling the truth. He seems an amiable fellow, a good Irish Catholic, but he could well be lying. Before he went into television he worked for Mario Cuomo and D.P. Moynihan. Make Libby a Democrat and change Cuomo and Moybihan to Bob Dole and Newt Gingrich and ask yourself if there isn't just the slightest possibility that he's not telling the truth. And even if Russert's version is true, it shouldn't be a crime to have a faulty memory.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=saden1;320038]Scooter Libby got caught lying. The penalty for lying is a bit much but then again he should have come clean. The difference between him and Richard Armitage is that Armitage was cooperative from the get-go. He probably pointed fingers at Libby.

Also, Libby's character witness list was atrocious. His lawyer should have been disbarred for even submitting the list to the court. Team Libby wasn't able to convince anyone involved in his trial that he was innocent. We'll just have to see how his appeals goes.

I would hate to see the President pardon him as that would set a very bad precedence. I mean, he wouldn't pardon a mentally [URL="http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17670"]retarded dude while he was governor[/URL] so what makes Libby so special?[/quote]


From your link:

"But Washington's plea for clemency raised substantial issues, which called for thoughtful, fair-minded consideration, not the least of which was the fact that Washington's mental handicap had never been presented to the jury that condemned him to death."

If he were retarded in the way most people think of that term then the jury wouldn't have had to have it explained to them. It would have been obvious. Anyone can score really low on an IQ test. At any rate, Bill Clinton was executing retarded people when Bush was just a baseball owner:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Ray_Rector]Ricky Ray Rector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

If Libby would have just donated some money like these guy's.
[URL="http://www.judicialwatch.org/pgate.shtml"]Judicial Watch[/URL]

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

I did read the article. Memory expert? Get out here...he had ample time to prepare for the grand jury, and no, you can't answer every question with I don't remember.

I'm so sick and tired of people playing the "I don't remember" card. It's a great way to lie without lying.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=saden1;320088]I did read the article. Memory expert? Get out here...he had ample time to prepare for the grand jury, and no, you can't answer every question with I don't remember.

I'm so sick and tired of people playing the "I don't remember" card. It's a great way to lie without lying.[/quote]


"I don't remember" is not a shield from perjury. People went to jail in Watergate for saying "I don't remember". It is more difficult to prove. You would need supporting evidence. Anyways, I don't think Libby answered any questions with "I don't remember".

Of course, you would think that you would need supporting evidence when your whole case depends on the word of a journalist who used to be a partisan Democrat and may well be still.

Update: It seems that about 90% of his colleagues are as well:

[URL="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19113485"]Journalists give campaign cash - Politics - MSNBC.com[/URL]

A complete list of who gave to which party:

[URL="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19113455"]List of journalists taking sides - Politics - MSNBC.com[/URL]

Make sure you scroll down to read the lame explanations. Many of the donations were given in violation of their employers policies so they're trying to lay the donations on their spouces or other family members. I think Patrick Fitzgerald and Judge Walton should convene a tribunal.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=70Chip;320067]From your link:

"But Washington's plea for clemency raised substantial issues, which called for thoughtful, fair-minded consideration, not the least of which was the fact that Washington's mental handicap had never been presented to the jury that condemned him to death."

If he were retarded in the way most people think of that term then the jury wouldn't have had to have it explained to them. It would have been obvious. Anyone can score really low on an IQ test. At any rate, Bill Clinton was executing retarded people when Bush was just a baseball owner:

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Ray_Rector"]Ricky Ray Rector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL][/quote]

I don't understand what your point is. I guess the same principle that applied to Washington applies to Libby as well. His defense team sucked and a jury convicted him. Again, why should Libby get special treatment?

As for Clinton and Rector fiasco, the whole thing was a disgusting display of a self preservation on Clinton's part. It's cruel.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=70Chip;320097]"I don't remember" is not a shield from perjury. People went to jail in Watergate for saying "I don't remember". It is more difficult to prove. You would need supporting evidence. Anyways, I don't think Libby answered any questions with "I don't remember".

Of course, you would think that you would need supporting evidence when your whole case depends on the word of a journalist who used to be a partisan Democrat and may well be still.

Update: It seems that about 90% of his colleagues are as well:

[URL="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19113485"]Journalists give campaign cash - Politics - MSNBC.com[/URL]

A complete list of who gave to which party:

[URL="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19113455"]List of journalists taking sides - Politics - MSNBC.com[/URL]

Make sure you scroll down to read the lame explanations. Many of the donations were given in violation of their employers policies so they're trying to lay the donations on their spouces or other family members. I think Patrick Fitzgerald and Judge Walton should convene a tribunal.[/quote]


To be honest, I don't know all the details about the case to personally make judgment about his guilt. I do however know that he was convicted by a jury of his peers. Do you think all these free Libby advocates [URL="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7262723"]have looked at the the case in it's entirety[/URL]?

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=saden1;320108]I don't understand what your point is. I guess the same principle that applied to Washington applies to Libby as well. His defense team sucked and a jury convicted him. Again, why should Libby get special treatment?

As for Clinton and Rector fiasco, the whole thing was a disgusting display of a self preservation on Clinton's part. It's cruel.[/quote]

1. I think one of Hitchens points is that Libby is getting special treatment in the negative sense. Nobody else would have been prosecuted for this or sentenced so harshly.

2. When I hear the word retarded, I think special olympics. These guys are just really dim and they probably weren't exactly going all out to do their best on those IQ tests either. Also, I respect Sister Helen and her devotion to her cause, but she would be opposed to the death penalty for someone who had an IQ over 200 as well, wouldn't she?

3. The ironic thing about Clinton is that he stil got the same 43% of the vote that Dukakis got and Dukakis would have never signed anyone's death warrant. If he actually went against his consiense in that case, which I would question the existence of one as far as he goes, he ultimately did it for nothing.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

Libby's lawyer should have tried this:

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9ykXQRmnCI]YouTube - Lionel Hutz[/url]

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

The President has done the right thing:

[url=http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070702-3.html]Statement by the President On Executive Clemency for Lewis Libby[/url]

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

No suprise here.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=70Chip;323723]The President has done the right thing:

[URL="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070702-3.html"]Statement by the President On Executive Clemency for Lewis Libby[/URL][/quote]
please explain to me why this is the right thing. especially for all the republicans that wanted Bill Clinton's head for lying under oath

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;323914]please explain to me why this is the right thing. especially for all the republicans that wanted Bill Clinton's head for lying under oath[/QUOTE]

Because Libby did not do ANYTHING wrong. Not even one little bit. He got run up the pole by a prosecutor looking to make a name for himself. By a prosecutor who knew within in days, DAYS, of the beginning of his investigation that nothing illegal had happened. By a prosecutor who knew who the real "leak" was and it wasn't Libby. Libby got prosecuted for having a different recollection of one, ONE, converstaion, from over a year ago. Justice here had been utterly misserved.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=FRPLG;323921]Because Libby did not do ANYTHING wrong. Not even one little bit. He got run up the pole by a prosecutor looking to make a name for himself. By a prosecutor who knew within in days, DAYS, of the beginning of his investigation that nothing illegal had happened. By a prosecutor who knew who the real "leak" was and it wasn't Libby. Libby got prosecuted for having a different recollection of one, ONE, converstaion, from over a year ago. Justice here had been utterly misserved.[/quote]

He didn't do anything wrong? Not even a little bit? What! Obstruction of Justice is a crime. Period. There's no debating that. Had he not done anything wrong, Bush would have given him a full pardon - without question. Instead, he communted his sentence; Which in my mind was was for a lot of reasons, but I won't go there right now.

Bush simply thought the sentence was excessive, which it wasn't, that's why he communted the sentence. Not because he thought Libby was innocent. Big difference.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

FRPLG, out of curiosity, if Libby was really guilty of the crime he was convicted of - in other words if he really did lie rather then misremember events - would you still support Bush's decision to commute his sentence?

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;323931]FRPLG, out of curiosity, if Libby was really guilty of the crime he was convicted of - in other words if he really did lie rather then misremember events - would you still support Bush's decision to commute his sentence?[/QUOTE]
If he was really guilty then no. I do not know what a standard sentencing would have been but I would have been in favor of a standard sentence.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;323930]He didn't do anything wrong? Not even a little bit? What! Obstruction of Justice is a crime. Period. There's no debating that. Had he not done anything wrong, Bush would have given him a full pardon - without question. Instead, he communted his sentence; Which in my mind was was for a lot of reasons, but I won't go there right now.

Bush simply thought the sentence was excessive, which it wasn't, that's why he communted the sentence. Not because he thought Libby was innocent. Big difference.[/QUOTE]

What did he obstruct? He was asked to describe a conversation with Tim Russert, which had happened over a year before the investigation and had been based on entirely different issues, and his description was different than Russert's. That's it. Nothing else. Is it possible for even a minute that maybe, just maybe, Russert was the one who was wrong? Russert admittedly did not have notes on the conversation so it came down to he said/he said. Oh and the converstaion was not about anything illegal. Why would he have obstructed justice when there was nothing illegal to hide in the first place? The entire thing has been a trumped up BS kanagaroo court advanced and pushed forward for poltical gain by democrats. That's it. You don't find it odd that within days of the beginning of the investigation the prosecutor knew who the "leak" was, knew that no crime was commited, and knew that neither the Vice President or President had anything to do with it, yet he continued invetsigating for months costing tax payer money all the while essentially trying to catch people in "lies".

The reason Bush did not pardon him was for similar BS poltical reasons. Instead on inflaming the worthless negative-nellie democrats in Washington he simply compromised. Now they can all spend a couple days spewing their sanctimonious crap and the story will die. Until his conviction gets overturned on appeals that is.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=FRPLG;323945]What did he obstruct? He was asked to describe a conversation with Tim Russert, which had happened over a year before the investigation and had been based on entirely different issues, and his description was different than Russert's. That's it. Nothing else. Is it possible for even a minute that maybe, just maybe, Russert was the one who was wrong? Russert admittedly did not have notes on the conversation so it came down to he said/he said. Oh and the converstaion was not about anything illegal. Why would he have obstructed justice when there was nothing illegal to hide in the first place? The entire thing has been a trumped up BS kanagaroo court advanced and pushed forward for poltical gain by democrats. That's it. You don't find it odd that within days of the beginning of the investigation the prosecutor knew who the "leak" was, knew that no crime was commited, and knew that neither the Vice President or President had anything to do with it, yet he continued invetsigating for months costing tax payer money all the while essentially trying to catch people in "lies".

The reason Bush did not pardon him was for similar BS poltical reasons. Instead on inflaming the worthless negative-nellie democrats in Washington he simply compromised. Now they can all spend a couple days spewing their sanctimonious crap and the story will die. Until his conviction gets overturned on appeals that is.[/quote]


Well, he was convicted of perjury, making false statements...and [I]obstruction of justice[/I]. I find it hard to believe and very unlikely that a jury erred on all three counts after much deliberating and looking at all the evidence. Furthermore, the main players putting Libby on trial and handing down the sentencing were by and large Republicans. So one would, at least I would think, have to remove any political motivation for convicting him.

Additionally, Bush out of his own mouth said several months ago if anyone - anyone- is convicted in this case he would personally fire them. So what does he do, commute the dudes sentence instead.

For the record, it's the President's prerogative to excerise Executive Privilege, as far as I'm concerned. Every administration has had their share of questionable pardons or what have you. But the fact that this involved national security, there was evidence of White House involvement, and yet no one goes to jail, it just doesn't sit well with me.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

Libby was found GUILTY by a jury of his peers on 2 counts, one of perjury, the other on obstruction of justice. the judge had nothing to do with that. i don't remember isn't a defense. as 12th remembered, Mr Bush SAID he would fire ANYONE that is convicted of this, no matter who it was. the president has the power to make this go away, but why all the back tracking?