Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

I'm a George Allen fan, but also respect and admire Joe Gibbs. One thing that I've noticed is that most of the great head coaches have had assistant coaches who have gone on to become great head coaches in their own right.

In addition to Joe Bugel, who are the other branches of the Joe Gibbs coaching tree? I know that Joe Gibbs himself was the star pupil of Don Coryell's brilliant offensive-minded football school.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

Well, Richie Petitbone I suppose.

But his "coaching tree" as it were I think is more so comprised of former players who have gone to serve as head coaches or coordinators. I'm talking about guys like Ken Whisenhunt, Russ Grimm, Mike Tice, Greg Manusky. And then you have position coaches like Vernon Dean and Ernest Byner.

I used to think that was the biggest knock on his legacy, that he doesn't have a strong coaching tree a la Bill Walsh. But last week, while reflecting upon Walsh's death, I thought maybe the fact that he [I]doesn't[/I] have that strong tree is Gibbs's strength. His ability to adapt so well to the structure of his team-3 wide aerial attack or heavy jumbo, scrambling 6 ft. QB or statuesque 6'3" guy with a rocket arm, and so on-are hard to duplicate and a testament to his success as a coach.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

Coach has a decent assistant coching tree if you will, but I doubt any of the above names will pan out as a full blown HC. Grimm has the best shot to be a HC, but the others probably are assistants forever.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

its kind of funny that this is a thread. i was just thinking about this. it might be that Gibbs doesn't want strong personalities on his coaching staff, to avoid any conflict. kind of his way or the highway type. and maybe adding Saunders is his way to adapt to the new NFL

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;337321]Well, Richie Petitbone I suppose.

But his "coaching tree" as it were I think is more so comprised of former players who have gone to serve as head coaches or coordinators. I'm talking about guys like Ken Whisenhunt, Russ Grimm, Mike Tice, Greg Manusky. And then you have position coaches like Vernon Dean and Ernest Byner.

Barry Wilburn is in camp as well. As shown on Comcast.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

i think walsh's tree is amazing. Gibbs unfortually not so amazing.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

George Allen's coaching tree includes Super Bowl winner Dick Vermeil and fellow Pro Football Hall of Famer Marv Levy.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

no great head coaches, some of the best assistant coaches though, dan henning was another awesome assistant coach. but really you dont have to have a great coaching tree, those are for inevators. i wouldnt call gibbs that even though he pretty much created the one back system. but as far as a head coaching tree his guys have never really been good....still hes the best damn coach man, i am sick of these players taking what hes done for them for granted, they need to win for this guy he deserves that shit.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;337322]Coach has a decent assistant coching tree if you will, but I doubt any of the above names will pan out as a full blown HC. Grimm has the best shot to be a HC, but the others probably are assistants forever.[/quote]Whisenhunt is a HC as we speak.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

holchknowsbest your right the players need to man up for gibbs. but Gibbs cant alway give into there demands. These players dont deserve any breaks. Gibbs should work these guys harder. Stop this crap of them working out on their own. The skins are paying these bozos good money(mostly overpaid) there no reason why they cant work out at redskins park.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

They're all at Redskins Park now. Let's keep this thread on topic. More about Gibbs coaching tree...

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

Last week on the Riggo show he was talking about Walsh and how people call him a master mind of the game (I think that was the term or something like that) and how they just call Gribbs a great coach. He then started given out stats of the two coaches careers and how Gibbs numbers are better in just about every category. He was not knocking Walshes great career but only asking why Gibbs is only considered great and Walsh a master mind.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[quote=firstdown;337623]Last week on the Riggo show he was talking about Walsh and how people call him a master mind of the game (I think that was the term or something like that) and how they just call Gribbs a great coach. He then started given out stats of the two coaches careers and how Gibbs numbers are better in just about every category. He was not knocking Walshes great career but only asking why Gibbs is only considered great and Walsh a master mind.[/quote]

It is because of the "West Coast Offense" that is discussed ad nausem, the iconic teams, and even more because of the iconic players (esp. Montana and Rice), which Gibbs teams did not have. I will point out, however, that Gibbs is in the Hall of Fame so I'm not sure he is slighted too much. His lustered is tarnished most, I'd say, by the 21-27 record he has since coming back. Hopefully the team can help rectify that this season.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[url=http://bears.scout.com/2/638740.html]Scout.com: Chalk Talk: West Coast Offense Part I[/url]

"Most NFL fans associate the West Coast Offense with Bill Walsh’s 49ers teams of the 1980s. But the seeds of Walsh’s system in San Francisco were planted 20 years earlier by Gillman and in a much different form. Any team that presently runs an offense that is predicated on short timing patterns is tagged with the West Coast label. But unlike Walsh, Gillman had no use for short passes. His philosophy involved a more vertical attack, similar to Mike Martz’s 'Greatest Show on Turf' offense while with the St. Louis Rams.

It was during Gillman’s days with the Chargers that San Diego State head football coach Don Coryell began frequenting the Bolts’ preseason camps with his two young assistant coaches, Joe Gibbs and Ernie Zampese. They loved what they saw of the offense and began developing it further for their Aztec teams. Coryell began adding his own innovations and building on what Gillman had started. By the time Coryell took the head coaching position for the Chargers in 1978, his scheme had become known as ‘Air Coryell.’ In nine years with the Chargers, Coryell’s offense led the NFL in passing yardage seven times.

Joe Gibbs then took the offense with him to the Washington Redskins in 1981. His tinkering with the system involved adding the bunch formation – three wide receivers lined up together, each darting off in confusing patterns – and the two- and three-tight end alignments, resulting in three Super Bowl championships."

(Here's Part II of the article: [url=http://bears.scout.com/2/641292.html]Scout.com: Chalk Talk: West Coast Offense Part II[/url])

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;337664]Most NFL fans associate the West Coast Offense with Bill Walsh’s 49ers teams of the 1980s. [B]But the seeds of Walsh’s system in San Francisco were planted 20 years earlier by Gillman [/B]and in a much different form. [/QUOTE]

I always thought Bill Walsh was a student of Paul Brown, who was the original pioneer of what we know as the "West Coast" short passing attack.

The Sid Gillman/Don Coryell philosophy never actually crossed paths with Bill Walsh.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;337761]I always thought Bill Walsh was a student of Paul Brown, who was the original pioneer of what we know as the "West Coast" short passing attack.

The Sid Gillman/Don Coryell philosophy never actually crossed paths with Bill Walsh.[/QUOTE]

I think you're right about the Walsh/Brown connection. But Walsh still used parts of Gillman's philosophy to craft his own offensive vision.

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070730/ap_on_sp_fo_ne/fbn_obit_walsh]Former 49ers coach Bill Walsh dead at 75 - Yahoo! News[/url]

[QUOTE]After Cal, he did a stint at Stanford before beginning his pro coaching career as an assistant with the AFL's Oakland Raiders in 1966, forging a friendship with Al Davis that endured through decades of rivalry. Walsh joined the Cincinnati Bengals in 1968 to work for legendary coach Paul Brown, who gradually gave complete control of the Bengals' offense to his assistant. [B]Walsh built a scheme based on the teachings of Davis, Brown and Sid Gillman [/B]— and Walsh's own innovations, which included everything from short dropbacks and novel receiving routes to constant repetition of every play in practice. Though it originated in Cincinnati, it became known many years later as the West Coast offense — a name Walsh never liked or repeated...[/QUOTE]

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

yes gibbs record since he came back has hurt him. That what i feared most when gibbs was hired. If gibbs fails here what the hell going to happen here?

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

I think if Gibbs 2.0 turns out to be a complete failure, his career will be looked at in 2 parts. The first part being a 3-time SB winner, and the 2nd part as a coach who couldn't translate his earlier success to a different era.

Whatever happens in Gibbs 2.0, nobody can take away his 3 SB rings and his significant career accomplishments from 1981 - 1992.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

your right you cant take away what happen in the first term. What scary if gibbs cant pull this off who can? GW or AS i dont think so.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

Petitbon played for George Allen. I think he was a holdover from Pardee's coaching staff. He played for the Bears, Rams and Skins. Maybe he comes from the Halas tree.

I'm not sure Joe Gibbs has a coaching tree. He got his start fairly young and retired before many of his former players could have become coaches under him. I would not consider any defensive coaches to fall in this category. As for offensive assistants, most have been colleagues who already shared the same philosophy.

The only guy that I can think of who became a head coach was Joe Bugel. I think he comes from the same tree that Joe Gibbs comes from. I think before you have a tree, you need some branches.

Russ Grimm and Earnest Byner are guys who may fit this description, if they become head coaches.

Dan Henning, Don Breaux, Rennie Simmons and Wayne Sevier (RIP) etc. are all like thinkers and contemporaries of Joe Gibbs. They are / were part of the mastery.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

For the most part Gibbs' assistants seem to be more suited to the role of assistant as opposed to HC. Buges failed miserably as HC (as did Petibone though it seems that he was from a different tree). Most of his assistants have never even generated much interest from owners with HC vacancies even when the assistants were younger. But does having a lot of Assistants that go on to HC mean that you are a better coach or just that you can assemble a good staff? As much as I can't stand him, Jimmy Johnson was a great coach and he didn't spawn a bunch of HC's from his staffs.
Of course, when Gibbs had a bunch of obscure coaches who weren't mentioned for vacancies we were a much more succesful team.
As far as former players, don't forget Doug Williams (Grambling & now in TB) and Todd Bowles (Cowpukes).

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

Joe Gibbs himself comes from the Don Coryell "tree" (which was an offshoot of the Sid Gillman "tree").

Joe Gibbs had some great OFFENSIVE assistants, that would go under his "coaching tree" (some went on to become Head Coaches in the NFL). Joe Gibb's offensive ball control system is run by more colleges and professional teams than the "west coast", "vertical passing game", or "run and shoot" systems. Many of the coaches below spread it around the league AFTER working under Gibbs:

1. Don Breaux
2. Dan Henning
3. Joe Bugel
4. Jim Hanifan
5. Warren Simmons
6. Jack Burns
7. Jerry Rhome
8. Rod Dowhower
9. Charlie Taylor
10. Earnest Byner
11. Stan Hixon
12. Al Saunders
13. Russ Grimm
14. Joe Jacoby (now coaching in college)

NOTE: There are others - these are just the ones that come to mind.

PS: Go onto "Google" & type in JOE GIBBS BALL CONTROL for a great article.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

While his assistants were not very good Head coaches, it still says alot as to how they coached while under Gibbs. I mean come on Gibbs did not win those games and super bowls by himself he had the great assistants. Even though they might not of panned out on there own, I would not trade them for the ones that went out and were good head coaches. Thanks to all.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

1. Joe Bugel & Jim Hanifan may be two of the premier O-Line coach of all time (the zone blocking, and counter/power blocking schemes they perfected are dominant in the NFL today). 2. Dan Henning (in a recent poll of NFL Coaches) was voted the 2nd. best current Offensive Coordinator in the NFL (both Dan Marino and Joe Theismann called him the best QB Coach they ever played under). 3. Don Breaux' impact on the Redskins success is greatly under-rated (Joe Gibbs called him "one of the two brightest minds I ever worked with"), and his input into the total offense was tremendous.

The following explains Joe Gibbs (& his staff) contribution to the game:

Coach Gibbs brought the running game back to the NFL at a time when everyone was pass happy. His power running game, two and three tight-end sets, maximum protection for the quarterback, invention of the H-Back (hybrid Fullback/Tight-End), and trips bunch formation (3 wide receivers stacked to one side of the line of scrimmage) and most importantly, his "counter-gap" or "counter-tray" running game, with pulling offensive guards and tackles, brought a new brand of smash mouth football to the NFL. His offensive lines would forever be referred to as the "Hogs" as they would methodically march downfield with one time consuming possession after another, exhausting the defense and dominating time of possession. Gibbs approach against other powerful offenses of the day, was to keep them off the field by keeping their defense on it. However, his system wasn't all run, and no pass. He incorporated a complete and balanced offense, maximum protection for the quarterback, with wide receivers who could work the short, middle and deep routes against the defense.

Still another perspective on Joe Gibbs' thinking:

Ball Control

Bud Wilkinson may have introduced ball-control offense with his Oklahoma Sooner teams of the 1950s, but Joe Gibbs and the Washington Redskins turned it into an art form, thanks to John Riggins and the irrepressible "Hogs." Already 33 years old at the start of the season, the 6'2" 235 pound Riggins ran the ball 38 times for 166 yards against Miami in Super Bowl XVII. Against Dallas, in the NFC Championship game, Riggins pounded out 140 yards on 36 carries; and in the preceding playoff game against Minnesota, he carried the ball 37 times for 185 yards. In four post-season games, Riggins piled up an incredible 610 yards.

Although Riggins' performances were spectacular, the Redskins' offensive line cleared a wide path through opposing defenses by controlling the trenches. Led by Jeff Bostic, Joe Jacoby, Russ Grimm and Mark May, the Hogs allowed Joe Gibbs to turn a powerful running game into a complete ball-control offense. At quarterback, Joe Theisman was the perfect complement to the running game. He led the league in accuracy, completing 64% of his passes. Although he threw for only 13 touchdowns, his high percentage passes kept the Redskins moving relentlessly down the field.

Four years later, Gibbs won his second Super Bowl, dismantling the Broncos 42-10. Bostic, May and Jacoby opened holes big enough for rookie Tim Smith to run for over 200 yards. Adding to Denver's misery was quarterback Doug Williams who passed for over 350 yards, including two touchdown bombs of 50 and 80 yards. By stretching a defense that was already unable to stop the run, Williams gave Washington an unfair advantage with his ability to go deep. However, Theisman and Williams still had one weapon in common - a power running game that delivered 3½ yards per carry, over and over again.

In order to design an effective ball control offense you must remain true to the basic concept for four quarters. The goal is very simple: Run the ball three times for 10 yards, or throw for 5 yards on two of three passing downs. The ball control offense may not make the highlight films, but it is hard to argue with a Super Bowl ring.

Although gaining 3½ yards per carry seems easy, it requires the right plays and personnel to keep it up for 60 minutes. First of all, fumbles are simply not allowed. If you aspire to build a ball-control offense around a running back who cannot hang onto the ball, you are doomed to failure. The 1982 Redskins recovered their only fumble in post-season play, while the 1987 Super Bowl champions lost the ball once during the entire playoff schedule.

Once you identify a dependable running back, you need to design a play book with conservative running plays. Stick with dives, power slants and counters; forget running wide. Your goal is to run north and south, and burn up the clock. Use tight ends and big blocking backs to help the guards and tackles.

If your first down running play fails to net 3½ yards, don't panic. You only need two very short pass completions to get the first down. You only need to clear out the first five yards past the line of scrimmage. Send at least two receivers deep to clear the area, and vary the direction of your swing routes. Remember, you only need five yards per catch. If you must air it out, wait until the defense tightens up to stop your running game. Watch the opposing safeties. If they move up to the line of scrimmage to support the run defense, it is time to go deep. When you strike fear in their hearts with a 20-yard completion, go right back to the ground game and resume the punishment.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

I've always thought that Gibbs reputation as a ball control specialist was hugely overstated.

In his first stint the running game finished in the top 5 in the league on just 3 occasions whereas the passing game made the top 5 on 5 occasions.

My view is that he went with what worked, whatever that was.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

Even though he's not a coach, let's not forget the job Martin Mayhew is doing in Detroit as their GM. Also, let's not forget Gibbs other tree in NASCAR. How many coaches or anyone that can claim greatness in 2 sports. Joe Gibbs is the best coach of all time!!

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

Gibbs controlled the ball with the pass AND the run! "Ball Control" is accomplished thru the pass as WELL as the run. Everybody has heard of "ball control passing attacks". Walsh's West Coast offense was the epitome of ball control passing!

Joe Gibbs WAS one of the all time greats (along with Lombardi, Chuck Noll, Sid Gillman, & Paul Brown, etc.). Look at this record:

Regular Season Record: 154 wins – 94 loses 621 win percentage

Post Season Record: 17 wins – 7 losses

3 Super Bowls: 1982, 1987, 1991

4 NFC Championships

His career winning percentage is higher than Bill Walsh, Bill Parcells, & Bill Belichick. None of them won MORE Super Bowls than he did (tho Walsh & Belichick won 3 also). His Post Season record is phenomonal!

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

Beemnseven:

Walsh is on Gillman's "Coaching Tree" (2nd. genertation). Al Davis worked under Gillman, & Walsh worked under Al Davis (BEFORE he worked with Paul Brown).

Walsh began his pro coaching career in 1966 as an assistant with the AFL's Oakland Raiders. As a Raider assistant, Walsh was trained in the vertical passing offense favored by Al Davis, putting Walsh in Davis' mentor Sid Gillman's coaching tree.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[quote=billmountjoy;710590]Joe Gibbs himself comes from the Don Coryell "tree" (which was an offshoot of the Sid Gillman "tree").

Joe Gibbs had some great OFFENSIVE assistants, that would go under his "coaching tree" (some went on to become Head Coaches in the NFL). Joe Gibb's offensive ball control system is run by more colleges and professional teams than the "west coast", "vertical passing game", or "run and shoot" systems. Many of the coaches below spread it around the league AFTER working under Gibbs:

1. Don Breaux
2. Dan Henning
3. Joe Bugel
4. Jim Hanifan
5. Warren Simmons
6. Jack Burns
7. Jerry Rhome
8. Rod Dowhower
9. Charlie Taylor
10. Earnest Byner
11. Stan Hixon
12. Al Saunders
13. Russ Grimm
14. Joe Jacoby (now coaching in college)

NOTE: There are others - these are just the ones that come to mind.

PS: Go onto "Google" & type in JOE GIBBS BALL CONTROL for a great article.[/quote]

is that how you found this?

welcome to the board man

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[quote=davy;710602]I've always thought that Gibbs reputation as a ball control specialist was hugely overstated.

In his first stint the running game finished in the top 5 in the league on just 3 occasions whereas the passing game made the top 5 on 5 occasions.

My view is that he went with what worked, whatever that was.[/quote]

You know what cracked me up was them mentioning a great 3.5 YPC for us a SB year in that article. If you look at our stats last year we were at 3.9 YPC and that was good enough for 29th in the league. The lowest? 3.3 YPC as a team. My how things have changed.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[quote=davy;710602]I've always thought that Gibbs reputation as a ball control specialist was hugely overstated.

In his first stint the running game finished in the top 5 in the league on just 3 occasions whereas the passing game made the top 5 on 5 occasions.

My view is that he went with what worked, whatever that was.[/quote]

Well you don't necessarily need to finish top 5 in the running game as total yards or even YPC is only part of ball control. The chains kept moving and the clock kept ticking.. that's ball control.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[quote=tryfuhl;710614]is that how you found this?

welcome to the board man[/quote]

No! I have known Dan Henning & Don Breaux personally since the early 1960's (I coached High School & College ball, & was welcomed to Redskins Training Camps by them, going back to 1981). Through THEM - I met Joe Gibbs, Joe Bugel, Rennie Simmons, Jack Burns, Jim Hanifan, etc. (at Redskins Park). I ran their offense 100%. I still stay in touch with Breaux & Hanifan (via phone).

What I posted on the staff was from MY memory.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

I think the whole coaching tree thing is really over rated. Gibbs' guys really didn't have good head coaching careers but a lot of them were damn good coaches. I mean Buges went to Arizona and Oakland. Not the best places in the NFL to win. So much of it depends on the owner and the people who hire you.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[quote=billmountjoy;710628]No! I have known Dan Henning & Don Breaux personally since the early 1960's (I coached High School & College ball, & was welcomed to Redskins Training Camps by them, going back to 1981). Through THEM - I met Joe Gibbs, Joe Bugel, Rennie Simmons, Jack Burns, Jim Hanifan (at Redskins Park). I ran their offense 100% I still stay in touch with Breaux & Hanifan (via phone).

What I posted on the staff was from MY memory.[/quote]

Welcome! Looking forward to more of your insight in the future.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

Thank you very much!

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;337321]Well, Richie Petitbone I suppose.

But his "coaching tree" as it were I think is more so comprised of former players who have gone to serve as head coaches or coordinators. I'm talking about guys like Ken Whisenhunt, Russ Grimm, Mike Tice, Greg Manusky. And then you have position coaches like Vernon Dean and Ernest Byner.

I used to think that was the biggest knock on his legacy, that he doesn't have a strong coaching tree a la Bill Walsh. [B]But last week, while reflecting upon Walsh's death[/B], I thought maybe the fact that he [I]doesn't[/I] have that strong tree is Gibbs's strength. His ability to adapt so well to the structure of his team-3 wide aerial attack or heavy jumbo, scrambling 6 ft. QB or statuesque 6'3" guy with a rocket arm, and so on-are hard to duplicate and a testament to his success as a coach.[/quote]
Is this a common offseason pursuit SS? 'Hmm, that Bill Walsh, he sure is dead.' Sorry dude, that sentence just struck me funny. Now back to your regularly scheduled chatting.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[quote=Paintrain;710657]Is this a common offseason pursuit SS? 'Hmm, that Bill Walsh, he sure is dead.' Sorry dude, that sentence just struck me funny. Now back to your regularly scheduled chatting.[/quote]

LOL. Well considering he died just a few days before I posted that, it doesn't seem so odd now does it? :)

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[quote=billmountjoy;710628]No! I have known Dan Henning & Don Breaux personally since the early 1960's (I coached High School & College ball, & was welcomed to Redskins Training Camps by them, going back to 1981). Through THEM - I met Joe Gibbs, Joe Bugel, Rennie Simmons, Jack Burns, Jim Hanifan, etc. (at Redskins Park). I ran their offense 100%. I still stay in touch with Breaux & Hanifan (via phone).

What I posted on the staff was from MY memory.[/quote]

no I meant found this discussion which hadn't really been active lately.. I figured that you had found the board and this discussion from a somewhat related search

you certainly seem to know your stuff, wasn't trying to imply that you were just copy/pasting stuff

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

I've been a member of "Warpath" before - just had not been on the site in awhile.

Re: Joe Gibbs coaching tree?
 

[quote=billmountjoy;710761]I've been a member of "Warpath" before - just had not been on the site in awhile.[/quote]

If you where a member of the "Warpath" before why did you not come back as your old user? It shows your join date as July/2010 as in new to the site.

What was your prior user name?