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Defensewins 10-15-2007 10:49 PM

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 
[QUOTE=skinsfan69;364962]Stats never ever ever tell the real story. I think JC should have a better competion % and two less INT's. But all of the drops have hurt him in both those areas. That is why I really never pay too much attention to it.[/QUOTE]

That was my whole point. I don't give a crap if this guy has better stats than that guy. You are only as good as team you played against. If I played against the Patriots 5-0 and the Colts 5-0 and you played against the 0-6 Dolphins and the 0-6 Rams, who do think is more likely to have a bigger stats? Stats are not a good way to determine how good a player is.
For example the winner of the weak NFC South will most likely have inflated stats because that divison is currently the weakest top to bottom in teh NFL. That may change, but they are not very good right now. Well if I had 6 games against the saints, falcons and the panthers I would be beter off than if I were in the AFC North or AFC South.

724Skinsfan 10-15-2007 11:07 PM

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 
Funny how stats can be used to support one argument and dismissed for another.

Good ole Joey H is putting up monster stats tonight. With some luck, he may break the 50% completion mark.

RobH4413 10-15-2007 11:56 PM

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 
[quote=Defensewins;364955]Let me spell this out for you since you are obviously a little hyper sensitive and emotional about this. You mistakenly took my post as an attack. The expression 'Stats are for losers' comes from the situation of a player that plays on LOSING TEAM and has nothing to point to but his own individual stats, despite his teams being a big failure. So I was not attacking or calling your friend Jsarno a loser, I was calling the Cardinal TEAM losers. FACT #1.[/quote]

That was quite the stretch twisting the very non-specific "stats are for losers", to "The Arizona Cardinals have a losing record". I think a better approach may have been, "My bad, I apologize, You may have misinterpreted my vague as hell statement of "stats are for losers" as calling someone a loser. Next time I will be more specific."

I think G-tripp is simply pointing out that it's a very weak argument to just start chucking out things like "Young is still the best young QB regardless of how you spin the stats.". What does that mean? Why is he the best young QB. How is he "spinning the stats". Are you saying wins define how good a QB is?

Let me ask you something...Do you have a Trent Dilfer poster on your wall? No. Why? Because he sucks. He won a superbowl, so by your standards he's a great QB? That's an insane argument.

[quote=Defensewins;364955]

FACT #2 is we are different when it comes to sports. I played a ton of sports during my life time. I played this game to win, not to be #1 in the stats department. By the way you cling to stats as the end all of fact, you might be more of a sports fan than an actual player. Stats are very misleading. Look at the Pats game this weekend. Randy Moss was doubled and received most of the attention of the Cowboys Defense. So his teammates benefited from it and a guy like Wes Welker had a career day. Well according to your non-bending "Stats Never Lie" theory Wes Welker is a better receiver than Randy Moss. We all know that is not the case. All of the Pats WR's benefited from playing opposite R. Moss and that does not show up on a stat sheet. Moss was statistically was 4th in receiveing that day, stats by themselves are not fact. You also have to consider who you are playing against when looking at stats.
[/quote]
The problem here is that you're taking a situational stat here and using it to benefit your argument, so I'm going to call you out on it. In Chemistry class did you ever take one reading out of 1,000 and just use that to base your conclusion? No. You don't because it's bad reasoning.

I see your point, but I'm saying it doesn't apply here.

[quote=Defensewins;364955]Please don't take this as an attack on you. You asked me to back up my points with fact and I have. I am just stating a different opinion on the whole stats issue. However your comments on your highly emotional post challenging my football knowledge and calling me "blissfully ignorant" is a personal attack. Someone starting a thread every two weeks calling a QB on a winning team and singling him out is also an attack.
Football players are paid to win, not be #1 in stats.[/quote]
I think you need to calm down. G-Tripp was attacking your argument, and not you. See- "Nothing personal, but if you are going to defend your boy, I think there should be an argument there that isn't a personal attack."

I understand your opinion on stats, and I tend to think it's a dual edged sword.

Sometimes stats are taken out of context, sometimes they're misleading. They're are many occasions where many here on the warpath, including me, use them inappropriately.

IMO if you're arguing about the success of a quarterback, stats are very effective. Also, if you want to get technical, saying "He's 3-2" is also a stat.

GTripp0012 10-16-2007 12:08 AM

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 
[quote=Defensewins;364955]Let me spell this out for you since you are obviously a little hyper sensitive and emotional about this. You mistakenly took my post as an attack. The expression 'Stats are for losers' comes from the situation of a player that plays on LOSING TEAM and has nothing to point to but his own individual stats, despite his teams being a big failure. So I was not attacking or calling your friend Jsarno a loser, I was calling the Cardinal TEAM losers. FACT #1.

FACT #2 is we are different when it comes to sports. I played a ton of sports during my life time. I played this game to win, not to be #1 in the stats department. By the way you cling to stats as the end all of fact, you might be more of a sports fan than an actual player. Stats are very misleading. Look at the Pats game this weekend. Randy Moss was doubled and received most of the attention of the Cowboys Defense. So his teammates benefited from it and a guy like Wes Welker had a career day. Well according to your non-bending "Stats Never Lie" theory Wes Welker is a better receiver than Randy Moss. We all know that is not the case. All of the Pats WR's benefited from playing opposite R. Moss and that does not show up on a stat sheet. Moss was statistically was 4th in receiveing that day, stats by themselves are not fact. You also have to consider who you are playing against when looking at stats.
Please don't take this as an attack on you. You asked me to back up my points with fact and I have. I am just stating a different opinion on the whole stats issue. However your comments on your highly emotional post challenging my football knowledge and calling me "blissfully ignorant" is a personal attack. Someone starting a thread every two weeks calling a QB on a winning team and singling him out is also an attack.
Football players are paid to win, not be #1 in stats.[/quote]Firstly, you did attack Jsarno for making an arguably unessecary but solid argument highlighting Vince's struggles until this point. My post was more of a defense of Jsarno than an attack on the you, and so far you've kept it clean and professional so I have no reason to be irate. Please don't mistake my passion for anger.

The problem is you have no idea what my stance even is. I use facts to analyze players to best evaluate them. I never use stats to make a bad argument, because that is completely counterproductive to what I'm trying to accomplish to be ultra analytical. Thus you get the "blissfully ignorant" part of my comment. Ignorant is not a dirty word, nor an insult. I hope no one takes it as so. It's merely an observation I make that you clearly have no idea what it is that I do.

Firstly, you make the assumption that I never played sports simply because I like to analyze so I am not ignorant. Secondly, you assume I take the "stats never lie" position and thirdly you defended it by giving an argument that I clearly don't support, nor have ever claimed to or referenced. Since you are wrong on all three accounts, that's ignorance. Not stupidity or evilness or anything even remotely bad. I personally don't even care that you misunderstood me, but if it goes on a public fourm, then I have to defend myself.

Nothing you said is fundamentally wrong, per say, but I believe it reflects on a very narrow persepcion of the game. I have often defended a many of your posts in the past as very good nuggets of knowledge, so obviously you know what you are talking about often. I wish you were willing to possibly look at other viewpoints when they make sense, but to each their own I guess.

I am not bitter and I'm sorry if I offended you.

jsarno 10-16-2007 12:19 AM

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 
[QUOTE=Defensewins;364955]
FACT #2 is we are different when it comes to sports. I played a ton of sports during my life time. I played this game to win, not to be #1 in the stats department. By the way you cling to stats as the end all of fact, you might be more of a sports fan than an actual player. Stats are very misleading. [/QUOTE]

Not really sure what you're getting at here, I know you weren't talking to me with this comment, but it could easily apply to me. If you followed the threads you would know that I was a QB in college, and played several sports at a high level.
Honestly, all the people that ride VY's jock gets frustrating cause he's the worst QB in the league that has a solid starting job. He didn't deserve the ROY last year, but SEVERAL people here think he's amazing, and he's not. Stats don't always show everything, you're right, but in this case, it is proving a very good point.
Last year he played in 15 games and his team went 8-7 in those games. It's not like he beat amazing opponants either (something the "stats" don't show). He beat the Skins, Bills, Texans twice, Jags, Giants, Eagles, and Colts. They had a combined record of 62-66. This year, they have beat the Jags, Saints and Falcons who have a combined record of 6-9. Again I must say, they would have lost to the Jags had it not been for an injury to Scobee and not being able to kick the field goal in the red zone TWICE. But still...the past two seasons, their wins came from teams that have a combined 68-75 record. Not very impressive. People say "count the important stats...count the wins." OK, they won't make the playoffs this year with a GREAT D, (if VY plays anyway) and they didn't make the playoffs last year. People here dismiss Marino as the one of the best because he never won the big one, well Vince hasn't even made the playoffs.
I know he's only in his second season, and if you look at his stats, you have to recognize that there aren't many QB's (if any) that have worse stats than he does. Can VY become a good QB...sure...if he learns (like McNabb for instance) that being a pocket passer is what it's all about and use your legs as a last resort. (like Campbell and Steve Young later in his career as well) Right now he's on a horrible path. His passing skills are some of the worst, if not overall worst in all the league, yet people still talk about him like he's a top 5 QB. That's wrong. He's a bottom 5 QB at best, and will do so until he feels like proving otherwise.

GTripp0012 10-16-2007 12:30 AM

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 
[quote=Defensewins;364967]That was my whole point. I don't give a crap if this guy has better stats than that guy. You are only as good as team you played against. If I played against the Patriots 5-0 and the Colts 5-0 and you played against the 0-6 Dolphins and the 0-6 Rams, who do think is more likely to have a bigger stats? Stats are not a good way to determine how good a player is.
For example the winner of the weak NFC South will most likely have inflated stats because that divison is currently the weakest top to bottom in teh NFL. That may change, but they are not very good right now. Well if I had 6 games against the saints, falcons and the panthers I would be beter off than if I were in the AFC North or AFC South.[/quote]That is what defensive adjustments are for...

That is, however, beyond the scope of conventional yards. What you could say is that "conventional stats are bad measures of how skilled a player is because they are often context heavy." I honestly believe this is an accurate statement as your Moss-Welker situation points out.

Unfortunately I don't by the "because they are sometimes faulty, they are useless" argument. Faulty as yards are, they correlate a heckuva lot better to winning football than just assuming every player on a winning team is better than every player on a losing team.

jsarno 10-16-2007 12:33 AM

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 
Gtripp...very good posts, thank you for your defense.
Rob, very good points as well.

I am actually a little surprised that there are some that see what I am talking about. Last year when I made a post about VY being overrated, I was widely outnumbered.

I think VY's smoke and mirrors are fading.

RobH4413 10-16-2007 12:35 AM

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 
Poor guy has a lot of typing ahead of him if he wants to answer everybody. Sorry to barrage you like that defensewins. Godspeed in answering us all.

GTripp0012 10-16-2007 12:57 AM

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 
One last thought:

The argument that Vince Young only has 6.2 Y/A this season can reinforce the opinion that Vince is not connecting on the important throws, and not finding his receivers in space any better than he was last year. It shows that he is struggling in the passing game.

The argument that he is 3-2 while doing so can only be countered by a quick: "So?!" That really doesn't say anything about VY. Neither does telling me he's a winner, or a gamer, or a baller or anything of the sort. Not that anyone is being accused of making the aforementioned arguments. Players aren't paid to win. They are paid to play good football. If players were paid to win, the players on losing teams would have to give their gamechecks back. That's not what happens. You can enjoy individual success on a team that fails. It's just not as fufilling as team accomplishment.

saden1 10-16-2007 03:03 AM

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 
Vince Young is overrated. Tell you what though, if he actually finished that game against the Bucs there's a pretty good chance they'd be 4-2.

skinsfan69 10-16-2007 11:09 AM

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 
[quote=jsarno;364995]Not really sure what you're getting at here, I know you weren't talking to me with this comment, but it could easily apply to me. If you followed the threads you would know that I was a QB in college, and played several sports at a high level.
Honestly, all the people that ride VY's jock gets frustrating cause he's the worst QB in the league that has a solid starting job. He didn't deserve the ROY last year, but SEVERAL people here think he's amazing, and he's not. Stats don't always show everything, you're right, but in this case, it is proving a very good point.
Last year he played in 15 games and his team went 8-7 in those games. It's not like he beat amazing opponants either (something the "stats" don't show). He beat the Skins, Bills, Texans twice, Jags, Giants, Eagles, and Colts. They had a combined record of 62-66. This year, they have beat the Jags, Saints and Falcons who have a combined record of 6-9. Again I must say, they would have lost to the Jags had it not been for an injury to Scobee and not being able to kick the field goal in the red zone TWICE. But still...the past two seasons, their wins came from teams that have a combined 68-75 record. Not very impressive. People say "count the important stats...count the wins." OK, they won't make the playoffs this year with a GREAT D, (if VY plays anyway) and they didn't make the playoffs last year. People here dismiss Marino as the one of the best because he never won the big one, well Vince hasn't even made the playoffs.
I know he's only in his second season, and if you look at his stats, you have to recognize that there aren't many QB's (if any) that have worse stats than he does. Can VY become a good QB...sure...if he learns (like McNabb for instance) that being a pocket passer is what it's all about and use your legs as a last resort. (like Campbell and Steve Young later in his career as well) Right now he's on a horrible path. His passing skills are some of the worst, if not overall worst in all the league, yet people still talk about him like he's a top 5 QB. That's wrong. He's a bottom 5 QB at best, and will do so until he feels like proving otherwise.[/quote]


Jsarno I respect your opinion on VY. He needs to get better. No question about it. The media does hype him up a bit. But part of that is what he did in college and part of that is what he did with a below average NFL offense last year.

But here is my problem. I can't stand it when people say that he played against bad teams. That the teams he played had a losing record. Sorry but that's a bunch of BS. I have news for you. It's the NFL. Anyone can beat anyone and that's why it's such a great league. NO sucks this year and beat Seattle at home. Buff should have beaten Dallas last week w/ a rookie QB. That's the NFL.

The Texans had a good defense for most of last year. The Colts, Eagles and Giants were all playoff teams. They beat us at home. The Titans beat all those teams. Any win on the road with a rookie Qb is impressive. That is a tough thing to do in the NFL. So how about giving the guy a little credit for that. And saying things like the only reason they beat the Jags is because the kicker got hurt is just silly. It's almost like your trying to find reasons to prove your point.

TheBigD 10-16-2007 12:10 PM

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 
[quote=jsarno;364995]
Last year he played in 15 games and his team went 8-7 in those games. It's not like he beat amazing opponants either (something the "stats" don't show). He beat the Skins, Bills, Texans twice, Jags, Giants, Eagles, and Colts. [/quote]

Are you serious? It is no wonder you left the Colts to be the last team in the list. You are right, who did they beat? Only the champs from last year. What I thought was a good sign for the Titans and their fans is the fact that the game he won against the Colt, Giants, and Texans, they were down and he led GW drives.

I remember arguing with you in that "Warner is Back" thread. You simply HATE Young, for the simple fact that he wins games and gets credit and the media likes him.

jsarno 10-16-2007 05:56 PM

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 
[QUOTE=TheBigD;365111]Are you serious? It is no wonder you left the Colts to be the last team in the list. You are right, who did they beat? Only the champs from last year. What I thought was a good sign for the Titans and their fans is the fact that the game he won against the Colt, Giants, and Texans, they were down and he led GW drives. [/quote]

I think you missed the point that the ONLY good team they beat last year was the Colts. Do you even realize that the Texans had the 28th ranked offense, and the 26th ranked defense last year? Also, the Colts scored 17 points vs the Titans, tied for the second worst offensive output for them last year, it was the Titans D that won them that game. The game after the Titans, the Colts lost to the Jags 44-17. To make matters worse, the Colts went on a stretch of losing 4 out of 6 games from weeks 11-16. Hardly "Champion" material. Luckily they pulled it together last week of the season and then in the playoffs.

[quote]I remember arguing with you in that "Warner is Back" thread. You simply HATE Young, for the simple fact that he wins games and gets credit and the media likes him.[/QUOTE]

Please don't mistake my hate for the fact that everyone thinks he's a good QB when he's clearly terrible for a hate for him the person. He's actually a good guy. I have friends that went to Texas and they said he's a stand up guy and does great things for people. As a person, I like the guy a lot. As a QB, I think he's awful. Check that, I KNOW he's awful. Problem is, there are still plenty that think he's the shit. People still say "he wins games"...even if someone is ignorant to the fact that he has not won all the games, his team has, he is 11-9 in his career. That's hardly a winner. I dare say he has not won a single game this year, his defense won them all. So it's more like 8-9.
But it's become obvious that the proof I have already given is not good enough for some to take their blinders off. It's about as concrete as you can get. How some can see him as a winner when he's last or next to last in every statistical catagory is beyond me. The titans are winning this year despite of him. Imagine how good they would be with a real QB?

MTK 10-17-2007 08:24 AM

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 
It will be interesting to see how they do without him, if he can't play due to his injury.


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