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DynamiteRave 01-31-2008 10:16 PM

Democratic Debate
 
I missed it cause of work!

If anyone watched please give me feedback on how each candidate did and who won? (or tied)

Much appreciated! :D

RobH4413 02-01-2008 08:42 AM

Re: Democratic Debate
 
It was a fairly civil debate. I think Obama took home with him the issue on the war. He kept reinforcing that it was more important to be right on Day 1 of voting, then being present... or something to that effect.

He basically alluded to the fact that Hilary voted to give GB authority to go to war, and Obama was opposed from the start.

They battled on health care.

Obama said it wasn't fair to mandate health care, but Hilary pointed out that he was mandating it for children, so what's the difference. Basically a lot of back and forth on some of the same issues.

I kind of was in a cough medicine induced coma during most of the debate, so if I didn't get it all... someone else please fill in.

firstdown 02-01-2008 09:45 AM

Re: Democratic Debate
 
I missed the debate but it probably went like this. I can provide free health care fo everyone. Well, I can provide free health care for everyone and also provide them with better high paying jobs. Well, I can provide health care for everyone, better paying jobs, and end poverty. Well, I can provide health care, good paying jobs, end poverty, and end our dependency on oil. The thing they leave out is how we will pay for this or how they will actually do any of these things. Oh, I forgot they will have the best economy the country has ever seen.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha 02-01-2008 09:47 AM

Re: Democratic Debate
 
It was very boring and uninformative. Don't worry, you didn't miss a thing.

FRPLG 02-01-2008 10:41 AM

Re: Democratic Debate
 
[QUOTE=RobH4413;416003]It was a fairly civil debate. I think Obama took home with him the issue on the war. He kept reinforcing that it was more important to be right on Day 1 of voting, then being present... or something to that effect.

He basically alluded to the fact that Hilary voted to give GB authority to go to war, and Obama was opposed from the start.

They battled on health care.

Obama said it wasn't fair to mandate health care, but Hilary pointed out that he was mandating it for children, so what's the difference. Basically a lot of back and forth on some of the same issues.

I kind of was in a cough medicine induced coma during most of the debate, so if I didn't get it all... someone else please fill in.[/QUOTE]

I like Obama much more than Hillary but his holier than thou routine about this war is tiresome. Nobody at the time was screaming too much about this and I would staunchly argue that being right on Day 1 is not what is important. It is being right NOW. Because NOW is the only thing that can be affected. Day 1 is gone and past. Get over it. Let's not focus on Day 1, let's focus on solutions to the problem.

And can anyone honestly say they think he wouldn't have voted for the war at the time? I have serious doubts about that. He seems like a team player and would have boarded that ship along with a lot of other Dems.

saden1 02-01-2008 11:25 AM

Re: Democratic Debate
 
Did I miss something? Is Jason Alexander running for president?

Sheriff Gonna Getcha 02-01-2008 11:45 AM

Re: Democratic Debate
 
[QUOTE=FRPLG;416034]I like Obama much more than Hillary but his holier than thou routine about this war is tiresome. Nobody at the time was screaming too much about this and I would staunchly argue that being right on Day 1 is not what is important. It is being right NOW. Because NOW is the only thing that can be affected. Day 1 is gone and past. Get over it. Let's not focus on Day 1, let's focus on solutions to the problem.

And can anyone honestly say they think he wouldn't have voted for the war at the time? I have serious doubts about that. He seems like a team player and would have boarded that ship along with a lot of other Dems.[/QUOTE]

Well 21 of 50 Dems in the Senate voted against the resolution authorizing the use of the military force. Moreover, Obama did make public statements denouncing the resolution. So, I think it's fair to say he would have voted with the other 21 Dems to reject the resolution. Moreover, I do think his vote is significant insofar as it demonstrates his past judgment, which itself is indicative of how he will act in the future.

For the record, I support the surge and oppose Obama's withdrawal plans. So, I'm not biased in favor of Obama when it comes to his views on Iraq.

dmek25 02-01-2008 01:44 PM

Re: Democratic Debate
 
it all seems like it boils down to weather or not you agree with the united states being in Iraq. both the Dem's will withdraw troops if elected. none of the republicans want this. i personally think its time to make Iraq accountable( there's that word again) for their own country, and bring our boys home

Sheriff Gonna Getcha 02-01-2008 01:55 PM

Re: Democratic Debate
 
[QUOTE=dmek25;416114]it all seems like it boils down to weather or not you agree with the united states being in Iraq. both the Dem's will withdraw troops if elected. none of the republicans want this. i personally think its time to make Iraq accountable( there's that word again) for their own country, and bring our boys home[/QUOTE]

I support the surge and our continued presence in Iraq. I oppose surrender, withdrawal, re-deployment or whatever you want to call it. However, I'm also an Obama supporter. Go figure.

As for "accountability," I think that's another way of saying "We'd like to abandon you now." I still have yet to figure out why so many people who want us to rush into places like Darfur and who wanted us to go to Rwanda are also saying we should get out of Iraq. We created a humanitarian mess in Iraq, we have the troops there, we made commitments to Iraqi allies, and it's in our national interest to see our commitments through. We didn't create a mess in Darfur, we don't have the troops there, the UN would oppose a UNILATERAL intervention there, we don't have any commitments to the Sudanese people in the Darfur region, and it's not in our national interests to be there. I can't perform the mental gymnastics that the anti-Iraq/pro-Darfur crowd goes through.

If Hillary or Obama win the general election, withdraw our troops from Iraq, and Iraq then descends into an even worse state, more damage will be done to the Democratic Party and our nation than I think most people realize. It took us 30 years to recover from Vietnam and it's legacy is "if you kick America in the teeth, they run away." Leaving Iraq would only feed the [I]erroneous[/I] perception that this country and Democrats are weak at the knees.

dmek25 02-01-2008 03:38 PM

Re: Democratic Debate
 
i agree with most of what you say. but because George Bush rushed into Iraq without a clear plan, or vision, he took a bad situation and made it worse. there should be a non public time table for withdraw. this will make the Iraqi people understand that sometime in the near future, they will be governing their country. as long as the united states, and the other coalition members continue to stay, Iraq basically sits back and enjoys being baby sat. with the sad shape that our economy is in right now, im sure the money used to fund the war could easily be used elsewhere. i think where the republican machine miscalculated was they thought there could be stability in the middle east. not in our lifetime, maybe never

GTripp0012 02-01-2008 03:44 PM

Re: Democratic Debate
 
Maybe the bigger issue about Obama is that when it came time to vote for the authorization of military force, he didn't have a vote, because he wasn't relevant on the political scene until 3.5 years ago.

He probably wasn't the best candidate for George Ryan's seat in the senate, and I'm really not sure what he has done to show he's ready to be president.

I don't know who I'm supporting to win the democratic nomination, but IMO, there's not a whole lot of reasons to think that either one of them is a better candidate than McCain/Romney.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha 02-01-2008 04:07 PM

Re: Democratic Debate
 
[QUOTE=GTripp0012;416152]I don't know who I'm supporting to win the democratic nomination, but IMO, there's not a whole lot of reasons to think that either one of them is a better candidate than McCain/Romney.[/QUOTE]

I actually think Romney and Hillary are very similar. They are both very bright, accomplished, and come from well-to-do backgrounds. They are also both political whores who will say or do just about anything for a vote. I understand that politicians appeal to their base during the primaries and the center before the general election, but those two have got it down to an art form. IMO, they are characterless and have no backbone. McCain and Obama are not without their flaws, but I can at least respect them.

Obama in particular seems interesting because, whether or not he is all flash, he inspires. In politics, perception is reality. Obama is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as an inspiring "transcendant" personality who can unite Americans and heal many of the wounds caused by Bush abroad. A true "uniter" who we Americans, and the international community, can rally behind is something we desperately need right now.

SmootSmack 02-01-2008 04:13 PM

Re: Democratic Debate
 
[QUOTE=GTripp0012;416152]He probably wasn't the best candidate for George Ryan's seat in the senate, and I'm really not sure what he has done to show he's ready to be president.[/QUOTE]

Just think, what if Ditka had run against Barack and won

Sheriff Gonna Getcha 02-01-2008 04:17 PM

Re: Democratic Debate
 
[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/27/AR2007022700160_pf.html"]Among[/URL] Romney's inconsistencies:

_In his two previous campaigns, Romney said that regardless of his own personal beliefs, abortion should be safe and legal. Now, he describes himself as pro-life and argues that Roe v. Wade should be replaced with state abortion regulations.

_In his Senate race, he wrote a letter promising a gay Republican group he would be a stronger advocate for gays and their rights than his liberal opponent, Edward M. Kennedy. Now he emphasizes his opposition to gay marriage and civil unions.

_Then a registered independent, Romney voted in the 1992 Democratic presidential primary for Paul Tsongas. Two years later, he said he did so because he favored the Massachusetts senator's ideas over those of Bill Clinton, and was sure President George H.W. Bush would be renominated. Now, Romney says he backed the candidate he thought might be the weakest opponent for Bush.

_In his first two campaigns, Romney emphasized his support of gun-control measures. In 1994, he said: "I don't line up with the NRA." Now, he is a card-carrying National Rifle Association member. He joined the organization in August.

_Romney used to distance himself from President Reagan. Now he casts himself as a conservative in the mold of Reagan.

Sorry to threadjack.....back to the Dems.

GTripp0012 02-01-2008 04:23 PM

Re: Democratic Debate
 
[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;416166]I actually think Romney and Hillary are very similar. They are both very bright, accomplished, and come from well-to-do backgrounds. They are also both political whores who will say or do just about anything for a vote. I understand that politicians appeal to their base during the primaries and the center before the general election, but those two have got it down to an art form. IMO, they are characterless and have no backbone. McCain and Obama are not without their flaws, but I can at least respect them.

Obama in particular seems interesting because, whether or not he is all flash, he inspires. In politics, perception is reality. Obama is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as an inspiring "transcendant" personality who can unite Americans and heal many of the wounds caused by Bush abroad. A true "uniter" who we Americans, and the international community, can rally behind is something we desperately need right now.[/quote]I'm not really high on Romney either, but I can at least respect his economic knowledge, and having a future in Michigan business management, it would actually be personally beneficial to me if Romney was president.

But a lot of the arguments that I make about Obama and his inexperience hold true for Romney too. I have serious questions about Romney's ability to lead and make good decisions for the international good, which of course is where the president holds the most power.

Perception is pretty important, possibly even more important than the issues themselves, but I would still feel way more comfortable supporting Obama eight years from now if he has solved some problems in his home state and has continued to gain respect and establish a political background, as opposed to now when he has done none of the above.

Then again, as long as Blagojevich is the Governor in Illinois, there's not a whole lot that can be done from the senate outside of damage control.

Hillary, I think, would be a stronger leader than Bill was, but I just can't get over the fact that I don't think she's all that intelligent. I think she vastly underestimates the intelligence of the masses (but perhaps not as much as I once thought) by claiming two years ago to be totally uninterested in the presidency while she lined up contributions for her upcoming campaign.

I can support a lot of what Hillary says, but I just can't get over the fact that she may not have the ability to adjust to the parts of her plan for this country that reality is going to totally shit on.

So, I keep going back and forth on this Hillary vs. Obama thing, almost to the point of an apathy. No matter who wins, I just can't get behind either of them.

Hopefully McCain wins the Republican nomination so I have someone I can actually support in this election, because otherwise, I'm just going to be totally apathetic about the whole process, and probably vote for Romney if I'm not busy on that Tuesday in November.


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