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70Chip 04-12-2008 08:37 PM

BitterGate
 
I understand and respect SmootSmack's desire to keep the political discussion here semi-intelligent, but I think the following statement from BHO is discussion worthy. It's unbelievable to me that someone running for President would say:

[I]"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them," Obama said. "And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations" [/I]

As though working class people in Pennsylvania had no affinity for guns or religion until 25 years ago. This is going to be a problem for him.

dmek25 04-12-2008 08:51 PM

Re: BitterGate
 
im part of the mix that he is talking about. and i totally agree. have you ever been to Pittsburgh? or Steelton? or Coatesville? all are old steel towns with little or no jobs available. your damn right those people are bitter. i see this as a non issue

onlydarksets 04-12-2008 09:24 PM

Re: BitterGate
 
I think it was the "guns, religion, and anti-immigrant" part that 70 is talking about. The basic idea seems correct, but the execution is pretty f-ed up.

BleedBurgundy 04-12-2008 10:54 PM

Re: BitterGate
 
Yeah, I have no issue with the bitter part. It's the "bitter and clinging to guns and religion" that are offensive. You never want to paint anyone with that broad a stroke, especially when it concerns topics as fundamental to this country as religion and the right to bear arms. To do so against the state that will arguably have the largest say in whether or not he is chosen to represent his party in the upcoming election? This could be a colossal misstep.

saden1 04-12-2008 11:18 PM

Re: BitterGate
 
The quote posted need context.

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saden1 04-12-2008 11:32 PM

Re: BitterGate
 
Here's Obama's response to the controversy with some clarification. He's not really backing down from the bitter comment and I think he is absolutely right, you better believe people are bitter. To me, what he is really saying is that people start caring about minor issues in his view like guns, and gay marriage, etc instead of focusing on the real tough challenges that we face and bringing an end to the cycle of b.s. that goes on in Washington.


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dmek25 04-13-2008 05:06 AM

Re: BitterGate
 
is this a case of someone like Fox making a issue where there really isn't? i still see this as a non issue. and it is really funny to hear someone like a 72 year old John McCain saying someone else is out of touch. that man hasn't a clue on every day problems us real Americans face. now, show him a war, or conflict, and that's right up his alley

Schneed10 04-13-2008 07:51 AM

Re: BitterGate
 
[quote=dmek25;439348]is this a case of someone like Fox making a issue where there really isn't? i still see this as a non issue. and it is really funny to hear someone like a 72 year old John McCain saying someone else is out of touch. that man [B]hasn't a clue on every day problems us real Americans face. now, show him a war, or conflict, and that's right up his alley[/B][/quote]

Gotta love that quote, can I put that as my sig? It just goes to show that too many people consider the war an issue that they don't really face, simply because it doesn't happen in their own back yard.

The war is the #1 issue we all face. Plain and simple.

McCain understands the issues, and to some extent Hillary and Obama do too, but he's the only one of the three who has his priorities in the right order and has solutions that won't hurt us in the long run.

saden1 04-13-2008 08:09 AM

Re: BitterGate
 
[quote=Schneed10;439349]Gotta love that quote, can I put that as my sig? It just goes to show that too many people consider the war an issue that they don't really face, simply because it doesn't happen in their own back yard.

The war is the #1 issue we all face. Plain and simple.

McCain understands the issues, and to some extent Hillary and Obama do too, but [B]he's the only one of the three who has his priorities in the right order and has solutions that won't hurt us in the long run.[/B][/quote]


Is it that so? Well if you're not keeping the economy strong and the economy is not your strong point how do you keep the war going? Borrow some more money from China? I hear they have 1.5 trillion saved up.

As they say, it's the economy stupid, always!

[yt]kqGWTh_NZ-0[/yt]

Sagging economy, war, and tax cuts...that's very rich.

More goodies...he really knows his shit doesn't he?

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[yt]jkfM7z0-Vdg[/yt]

mheisig 04-13-2008 08:54 AM

Re: BitterGate
 
He's right in one sense, and so off base in another that it's almost comical.

He has essentially said that guns, religion and gay marriage are unimportant issues to people. They're "clinging" to them because they're really just upset about the economy. How anyone can't see the absurdity of that is beyond me. Those issues are HUGE to tens of millions of people - it's not even debatable.

It's so arrogantly dismissive of issues that are of foundational importance to millions of Americans that I'm willing to just give him the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to a verbal flub.

SmootSmack 04-13-2008 10:53 AM

Re: BitterGate
 
I guarantee everyone's response in this thread would be different if they didn't know who made these comments or if it was Clinton or McCain that made them

And I think Mheisig is pretty spot on with his post.

EternalEnigma21 04-13-2008 11:12 AM

Re: BitterGate
 
there isn't really much ammo to pick obama apart with. He's a cunning linguist and a master debater. ;)

mheisig 04-13-2008 11:51 AM

Re: BitterGate
 
[QUOTE=saden1;439339]Here's Obama's response to the controversy with some clarification. He's not really backing down from the bitter comment and I think he is absolutely right, you better believe people are bitter. To me, what he is really saying is that [B]people start caring about minor issues in his view like guns, and gay marriage[/B], etc instead of focusing on the [B]real tough challenges that we face[/B] and bringing an end to the cycle of b.s. that goes on in Washington.[/QUOTE]

That's precisely why the comment makes him seem so out of touch. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's wrong, but a tremendous number of people in this country do NOT view those issues as "minor."

I think Obama is guilty of what every other politician is guilty of, namely being out of touch. These guys have been groomed from day one for their positions, most are multi-millionaires and haven't lived with the "common folk" that make up a large part of this country.

I think most of the country is guilty of the same thing. We all myopically see just our own point of view, or the views within our small, limited circle of people, and figure that's what the rest of the world thinks.

If you watch Fox News 24 hours a day you'd think President Bush is the greatest President in history. If you watch the Daily Show all week long you'd think the Republican party is nothing but clowns. Our views are dramatically shaped by the influences we surround ourselves with on a regular basis.

Go live in a large metropolitan area and spend your time with some rich white people and you'd think that the only issues that are really important are the economy and the environment. Religion and guns are trifling issues for simpletons to consider.

Head down south and hang out with the country boys and you'd think that the only important issues are guns and religion. As long as the bills are paid, who cares about the economy or the environment?

Head into the projects and people just want to pay their rent - they couldn't give a rats ass about a war that's thousands of miles away or the economy as a whole as long as they've got money for next week.

Dismiss the "guns and religion" crowd as much as you want, the fact of the matter is that's by and large the group that voted the current president into office. Twice. They're clearly voting and clearly having an influence

In the same vein, it's not better to dismiss the economy or the environment as the pedantic issues of the upper class elite in their ivory towers. They're voting too, most around urban population centers.

Dismissing any major group like Obama (or any other politician) is incredibly dangerous. These people are casting votes, whether they're intelligent or not and whether they live in the south, north, a city, the suburbs or the country, they're voting. There are over 80 million gun owners in this country, and I'd be willing to bet a large number of them consider gun ownership and important issue. By simply brushing them aside you've dismissed more than 25% of the U.S. population. You really think that if these people just had more money in their pocket they'd forget about their gun ownership rights? CBS reports that 84% of the population claims a religion. You really believe that if Joe Citizen's retirement investments would just turn around that he really wouldn't care how his religious beliefs (the fundamental beliefs he's held his entire life, the same ones that shape how he votes) are being treated by the government? How much more out of touch can you BE?

Get used to it and start trying to open your mind to what other people consider important and why. Dismissing massive portions of the population like that is damn near political suicide.

Disclaimer: The "you" I refer to is not directed at saden, his post just happened to be the springboard for this rant. It's more of a universal "you" and includes myself.

saden1 04-13-2008 12:47 PM

Re: BitterGate
 
[quote=mheisig;439366]
I think most of the country is guilty of the same thing. We all myopically see just our own point of view, or the views within our small, limited circle of people, and figure that's what the rest of the world thinks.

If you watch Fox News 24 hours a day you'd think President Bush is the greatest President in history. If you watch the Daily Show all week long you'd think the Republican party is nothing but clowns. Our views are dramatically shaped by the influences we surround ourselves with on a regular basis.

Go live in a large metropolitan area and spend your time with some rich white people and you'd think that the only issues that are really important are the economy and the environment. Religion and guns are trifling issues for simpletons to consider.

Head down south and hang out with the country boys and you'd think that the only important issues are guns and religion. As long as the bills are paid, who cares about the economy or the environment?

Head into the projects and people just want to pay their rent - they couldn't give a rats ass about a war that's thousands of miles away or the economy as a whole as long as they've got money for next week.

[/quote]

I have no problem with [I]you[/I] being me but you're definitely in that category. Did Obama lend you his painting brush?

Honestly though how is it that gay marriage and abortion become at the forefront of our political debate? Guns control is a touchy subject but does limiting gun purchases per a month need to be a first class platform issue?

mheisig 04-13-2008 01:15 PM

Re: BitterGate
 
[QUOTE=saden1;439368]I have no problem with [I]you[/I] being me but you're definitely in that category. Did Obama lend you his painting brush?

Honestly though how is it that gay marriage and abortion become at the forefront of our political debate? Guns control is a touchy subject but does limiting gun purchases per a month need to be a first class platform issue?[/QUOTE]

Painting brush? :confused:


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