I believe Zorn belongs
 

I was going to post this in the Camp Confidential thread, but I didn't feel like it was totally on topic, so I decided it deserved its own thread.

I definitely get the feeling that the Skins believe in Jim Zorn, it seems like everyone is responding to him and Cooley said that everyone believes in him.

I heard a great quote about pitching once that I think can apply to pretty much anything: "If you act like you belong, other people will start to believe you belong and then you will believe that they believe you belong." I really think that Zorn feels like he belongs in his head coaching role, I also think his players think he belongs and I don't think it will be long before the rest of the league starts to realize that he belongs.

I really don't know why, I'm normally very cautiously optimistic when it comes to the Redskins. They've broken my heart a few too many times, however, I will not lie, I have a huge man crush on Jim Zorn. I think it's because we're finally in a situation where we didn't chase the big name and make the big hire. Zorn could actually have a Bill Cowher like tenure here, he's a guy who could coach for the next 10 years and it's probably been since Norv (ugh) since that was a real possibility. Everyone knew that Marty, Spurrier and Gibbs weren't in it for the long haul.

I get all warm and fuzzy when I think about Zorn and Campbell bring back a winning tradition to back Washington. I would love to see something like 7 out of 10 years in the playoffs and a Super Bowl ring or two. I finally feel like this team has found long term solutions at HC and QB and I couldn't be more excited about that.

I want to end by saying, that I really appreciate what Joe Gibbs did for this team. While I was, overall, not too totally impressed with his tenure, one thing he did was bring back a pride to this team that I feel like was lacking under Schottenhiemer and Spurrier. Gibbs definitely turned the team around, I do wish he had been able to bring a title back to Washington, but I'm hoping Zorn can pick up where he left off and finish the job. I also love his approach to Campbell, the thought that his success is tied to Zorn and if Campbell plays poorly, it seems that Zorn will take that as a personal failure.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

Good take.

Of course it's very early, but I too have a good feeling about JZ.

I think it's starting to become clear why Snyder and Vinny went with Zorn. There definitely was a method to their madness.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

I feel like every year around this time we are so pumped for the up coming season but a lot of it is propaganda. I am really not trying to be a Debbie Downer but this is the time of year where teams try to make you think they are going to be so awesome.

I agree JZ looks like a nice guy but in reality what could he have done at this point to make us think he is going to suck. Really nothing he has had no opportunities.

If you you read anything on Redskins.com and get pumped you are fooling yourself. I actually avoid that web site.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

We don't have much to go on but for me it's just the sniff test. When Spurrier was here I think a lot of us, myself included, ignored a lot of the red flags that were so obvious looking back now. I'm not seeing any major red flags so far with Zorn. He seems well organized, his attitude is calm, cool, and collected, and the feedback so far coming out of Redskins Park seems to be genuinely positive from the players side. Of course we're going to learn a lot once the bullets are live, but right now Zorn seems to have a promising future.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[QUOTE=mredskins;462716]I feel like every year around this time we are so pumped for the up coming season but a lot of it is propaganda. I am really not trying to be a Debbie Downer but this is the time of year where teams try to make you think they are going to be so awesome.

I agree JZ looks like a nice guy but in reality what could he have done at this point to make us think he is going to suck. Really nothing he has had no opportunities.

If you you read anything on Redskins.com and get pumped you are fooling yourself. I actually avoid that web site.[/QUOTE]

This team is different then thoughs of years past. We don't have Danny Wuerfull or Jeff George as our quarterbacks. We don't have Rod Gardner or Michael Westbrook as our recievers. We don't have a former Cowboy offensive coordinator as our head coach. We don't have a college system in place at the NFL Level.

Its different dude. It took a Hall of Fame head coach to make it different too!

Don't get me wrong. I hear where you are coming from, but you have to see that this team is a different one. As Gibbs said when he was stepping down, "I don't want to say anything that will get the next coach in trouble, but we have the things in place here to do the things that we want to do." (its a loose quote).

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

lol...not to be a buzz killer with respect to this Zorn love fest but I felt Steve Spurrier belonged.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[quote=mredskins;462716]I feel like every year around this time we are so pumped for the up coming season but a lot of it is propaganda. I am really not trying to be a Debbie Downer but this is the time of year where teams try to make you think they are going to be so awesome.

I agree JZ looks like a nice guy but in reality what could he have done at this point to make us think he is going to suck. Really nothing he has had no opportunities.

If you you read anything on Redskins.com and get pumped you are fooling yourself. I actually avoid that web site.[/quote]
Well the product he put on the field last Sunday in such a short time showed that the team was well coached up this point. I'm not saying that because we won but because of the little things that all players even the scrubs showed. We did not have the confusion on the side lines and getting plays in, guys seemed to be on the same page, few penalties and most came latter with the scrubs, 3 starting QB's had two incompletions etc... While on the subject of only two imcomplete passes. QB's have two imcompletions in practice when they are just running plays with no D so even if they had the scrubs on D thats still great work. I'm not saying that he is going to be a great coach from one preseason game but the signs were there that he is doing a great job so far.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[quote=firstdown;462732]Well the product he put on the field last Sunday in such a short time showed that the team was well coached up this point. I'm not saying that because we won but because of the little things that all players even the scrubs showed. We did not have the confusion on the side lines and getting plays in, guys seemed to be on the same page, few penalties and most came latter with the scrubs, 3 starting QB's had two incompletions etc... While on the subject of only two imcomplete passes. QB's have two imcompletions in practice when they are just running plays with no D so even if they had the scrubs on D thats still great work. I'm not saying that he is going to be a great coach from one preseason game but the signs were there that he is doing a great job so far.[/quote]

I'll agree about the product he put on the field last Sunday. He did very well, and it was impressive, so far.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[QUOTE=saden1;462729]lol...not to be a buzz killer with respect to this Zorn love fest but I felt Steve Spurrier belonged.[/QUOTE]

I liked Spurrier too, but from the beginning I could tell he didn't have what it takes to win in the NFL. His lines about not burning the midnight oil, his decisions about adding guys who had disappointed in the pros, but played for him at Florida. There is a much different feel from Zorn.

I'm not saying that this team is going to do great on the field this year, I'm saying I'm excited for the future. It may *gasp* actually take more than one year for Zorn to really get it going, but I think he has all the makings of a very good NFL coach.

I've said it in pretty much every preseason that I don't expect much from this team. I didn't think Gibbs was going to lead them to the playoffs either year that he did, but I didn't think it was out of the question. If you asked me to lock down a percentage on a Super Bowl any year Gibbs was hear I would have said maybe 5-10. Do I believe their chances are better with Zorn this year? No, but I do believe that if he stays here and develops as a head coach then he could be something special.

I feel like Zorn's enthusiam for the game could be what has me jacked up. He just feels like a great coach to me. I don't think he's an imposter masquerading as a great head coach (Spurrier) or somebody's who's a little bit too stuck in his ways to truly be successful in the NFL. (I feel like Gibbs never fully handed the reins to Saunders and everyone's comments about the offense under Zorn seems to suggest the same.)

So, I guess what I'm saying is pardon me for finally being optimistic about the direction of this team. We FINALLY have a young, energized head coach who seems to want to work at building something here. And IF he's successful, he could be here for a long time. There's a QB in place who could become a franchise quarterback and we can stop relying on stop gaps like a Brunell or Todd Collins. Those are [B]the[/B] two biggest pieces, imo, needed to build a consistent winner.

I think most of my enthusiasm comes from actually having a long term future with this team, rather a bunch of "win now, won't be here in 2 year" players and coaches playing significant roles.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

spurrier had no quarterback zorn has 2. collins is a cool sucker thank god we kept him in case jason gets hurt or sucks.Here comes our dynasty and its about freaking time.the team that joe built is going to impress.REMEMBER POUNDING THE GIANTS AT HOME LAST YEAR.REMEMBER POUNDING DALLAS AT THE END OF LAST YEAR.OUR TEAM REMEMBERS!!

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[quote=redskinjim;462802]spurrier had no quarterback zorn has 2. collins is a cool sucker thank god we kept him in case jason gets hurt or sucks.Here comes our dynasty and its about freaking time.the team that joe built is going to impress.REMEMBER POUNDING THE GIANTS AT HOME LAST YEAR.REMEMBER POUNDING DALLAS AT THE END OF LAST YEAR.OUR TEAM REMEMBERS!![/quote]

HAIL!!

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

I feel pretty good about Zorn & the team too, but to me 8-8 would be a successful 1st year for him in all fairness. It's the toughest division top to bottom, he's new, the system's new, GW's gone, etc. I think it's reasonable to feel really good about zorn while not predicting much beyond a mediocre team.

I don't know how much can be gained by comparing him to spurrier. The biggest difference is that zorn has coached for years in the nfl, just not been a head coach or OC. Spurrier's problems amounted to mgmt., he simply didn't have control & respect.

Looking back of course there were red flags w/the ole ball coach, but tell me you weren't excited when he won early? Or when we opened his 2nd year at 3-1 after beating the Pats?

At a couple points in time he had the team looking up, then as the 03 season went on they just tanked & almost seemed to give up. That can & does happen to nfl coaches w/experience too. It's entirely possible that it could happen to Zorn. I don't see that happening any time soon because the team's direction and overall stability has improved exponentially after Gibbs II, this is a much different organization than it was 5 years ago.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[QUOTE=Miller101;462727]This team is different then thoughs of years past. We don't have Danny Wuerfull or Jeff George as our quarterbacks.[/quote]

True, instead we have a young qb that hasn't proven anything at all. (granted he has potential but that's what people thought of Danny Wuerffel being a "system" qb). Jeff George was the vet like Collins is. Not all dissimilar.

[quote]We don't have Rod Gardner or Michael Westbrook as our recievers. [/quote]
No, but we do have an extremely underachieving Santana Moss (or he was an overachiever in the past showing his true colors now), and Randle El who is getting paid like a #1 performing like #3. Again, not all that dissimilar.

[quote]We don't have a former Cowboy offensive coordinator as our head coach.[/quote]

Nope, instead, we have an OC that has no OC experience.

[quote]We don't have a college system in place at the NFL Level.[/quote]

No, instead we have a guy running the show that has never done anything more than be a QB coach at the NFL level. Spurrier was supposed to be a QB Genius, Zorn is a QB guru. Again, not all dissimilar.

[quote]Its different dude. It took a Hall of Fame head coach to make it different too! [/quote]

Of course it's different, it's many years later, but it's similar in the way that we (the fans) are approaching this season. Unrelenting optimism.
Don't get me wrong...I am there too saying all the right things, because I am hoping they all come true. I am not trying to be a "debbie downer" either, but I was admittedly a HUGE...MASSIVE Spurrier fan...that is until he actually started the season. Then I figured "he'd get it", and of course he didn't. I stayed on that bandwagon until the wheels fell off and it caught on fire, and ultimately blew up into a million pieces. That being said, I am on the Zorn bandwagon, but I am not steering the wagon at all.
I like our team, but I am not thinking we are a lock for anything. I've heard players talk about "they love the system", or "we are looking good this year" only to come out and suck. We are exactly 1 preseason game into the Zorn tenure people. I love the optimism, I really do, that's what makes us Redskins fans all alike, but can we please wait until we see Zorn when it matters before we give him the key to the city?

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[QUOTE=jdlea;462764]I liked Spurrier too, but from the beginning I could tell he didn't have what it takes to win in the NFL. His lines about not burning the midnight oil, his decisions about adding guys who had disappointed in the pros, but played for him at Florida. There is a much different feel from Zorn.[/quote]

For as much as I point out Spurrier vs Zorn, there is a huge, glaring difference with the two. Spurrier wanted to be a trailblazer and he didn't even try to reinvent the wheel, he tried to create something that would replace the wheel. Meanwhile, Zorn is trying to maximize what works in the NFL while putting his own spice on it. Spurrier was arrogant, while Zorn is an avid observer. So while there are other similarities between the two, I do not feel they are even remotely the same, and I feel Zorn has a lot more potential to succeed. (not saying you are saying that jdlea, just using your post as a spring board to my points, completely unrelated, in all I agree with you).

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;462823]For as much as I point out Spurrier vs Zorn, there is a huge, glaring difference with the two. Spurrier wanted to be a trailblazer and he didn't even try to reinvent the wheel, he tried to create something that would replace the wheel. Meanwhile, Zorn is trying to maximize what works in the NFL while putting his own spice on it. Spurrier was arrogant, while Zorn is an avid observer. So while there are other similarities between the two, I do not feel they are even remotely the same, and I feel Zorn has a lot more potential to succeed. (not saying you are saying that jdlea, just using your post as a spring board to my points, completely unrelated, in all I agree with you).[/QUOTE]

Actually, that's pretty much what I was trying to say. Zorn isn't coming here saying, "I'm going to set the world on fire." I think he probably has some pretty reasonable goals for this season.

Look, I'm not predicting playoffs. (although I wouldn't be shocked, in the NFL difference between 6-10 and 10-6 is no longer that drastic) I'm merely saying that I'm optimistic for the future of this team for the first time in a long time. We have a QB with [B]potential[/B] and a coach with [B]potential[/B] and that's what has me excited. They could become special and it could be sustained, not short runs and then a need to rebuild the whole team and coaching staff.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

All things considered, what TO THIS POINT could Zorn have done that he has not? As far as I am concerned, TO THIS POINT, I could not ask for more. He has done it all.
Vinny and the Dan brought it home!

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;462820]True, instead we have a young qb that hasn't proven anything at all. (granted he has potential but that's what people thought of Danny Wuerffel being a "system" qb). Jeff George was the vet like Collins is. Not all dissimilar.
[b]This is the probably the first and last time George and Collins are used in the same sentence. Collins is the consummate pro and team player, George-not so much[/b]

No, but we do have an extremely underachieving Santana Moss (or he was an overachiever in the past showing his true colors now), and Randle El who is getting paid like a #1 performing like #3. Again, not all that dissimilar.
[b]I think 32 of 32 teams would consider Moss and Randel-El an upgrade over 50-50- Gardner and Westbroke [/b]


Nope, instead, we have an OC that has no OC experience.

No, instead we have a guy running the show that has never done anything more than be a QB coach at the NFL level. Spurrier was supposed to be a QB Genius, Zorn is a QB guru. Again, not all dissimilar.
[b]The big thing you're missing is the Holmgren tree. Spurrier was a self made and appointed genius. Zorn has come from a strong lineage of successful coaches that followed a similar path. If you heard Cerrato on Sirius NFL Radio this week, he said that Zorn's practices are identical to the practices that he saw Bill Walsh run in SF. Following a proven method of success can compensate for lack of 'experience'[/b]

[/QUOTE]
There are naysayers and justifiably so until Zorn proves his worth, but those same naysayers universally overlook 3 important points:
1. Zorn inherits a playoff team that is largely unchanged in roster and coaching staff/philosphy. I'm on record saying that Gregg Williams [i][b]will not be missed![/b][/i] With the addition of Taylor, improvement of Landry and health of Rogers, McIntosh and Springs, we will be just fine.

2. For all the talk of us playing in the toughest division in football, we are not St. Mary's Sisters of the Poor. Last year we had 2nd half leads in ALL 6 NFC East games (and blew half of them). To further make the point, with the exception of the game in Dallas where we trailed by one at the start of the 4th quarter, we had 4th quarter in every division game.

3. We had 2nd half leads in 12 of 16 games last year and were only truly out of 1 game, New England. We have the talent to play with anybody on any given Sunday.

Far be it for me to say 'have no doubts about this season' but from where I sit, there is more to be excited about than to be concerned with.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[quote=Paintrain;462837]
2. For all the talk of us playing in the toughest division in football, we are not St. Mary's Sisters of the Poor. Last year we had 2nd half leads in ALL 6 NFC East games (and blew half of them). To further make the point, with the exception of the game in Dallas where we trailed by one at the start of the 4th quarter, we had 4th quarter in every division game.

3. We had 2nd half leads in 12 of 16 games last year and were only truly out of 1 game, New England. We have the talent to play with anybody on any given Sunday.

[/quote]

PLEASE!!!!!!!!! don't ever let me see a PREEVENT..anything.....ever ......again........

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[quote=jdlea;462699] I will not lie, I have a huge man crush on Jim Zorn. [/quote]

Looks like a "Bro-mamnce" is brewing.
Must say I like what I see and hear so far. Cautiously optimistic.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

Why don't we just try and forget that Spurrier ever coached here.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[quote=firstdown;462845]Why don't we just try and forget that Spurrier ever coached here.[/quote]

How?

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;462845]Why don't we just try and forget that Spurrier ever coached here.[/QUOTE]

Dude, you can't tell me you don't miss Jacquez Green...LOL

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[QUOTE=freddyg12;462811]I feel pretty good about Zorn & the team too, but to me 8-8 would be a successful 1st year for him in all fairness. It's the toughest division top to bottom, he's new, the system's new, GW's gone, etc. I think it's reasonable to feel really good about zorn while not predicting much beyond a mediocre team.

I don't know how much can be gained by comparing him to spurrier. The biggest difference is that zorn has coached for years in the nfl, just not been a head coach or OC. Spurrier's problems amounted to mgmt., he simply didn't have control & respect.

Looking back of course there were red flags w/the ole ball coach, but tell me you weren't excited when he won early? Or when we opened his 2nd year at 3-1 after beating the Pats?

At a couple points in time he had the team looking up, then as the 03 season went on they just tanked & almost seemed to give up. That can & does happen to nfl coaches w/experience too. It's entirely possible that it could happen to Zorn. I don't see that happening any time soon because the team's direction and overall stability has improved exponentially after Gibbs II, this is a much different organization than it was 5 years ago.[/QUOTE]

I think people forget that in Steve Spurrier's (and Norv Turner's) tenure in Washington, we didn't really have good teams. That tends to be crucial in how well a coach performs.

Steve Spurrier has proven to be a good coach -- in college. You don't win National Championships by being a complete idiot. To me, the Spurrier experiment just highlighted the extraordinary differences between the NFL and the NCAA. He, like many of us, never realized those differences until things began to fall apart.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

I think we could have made agreat run last year if we could have gotten by the seabags.And yes santana moss is showing his true colors.that is why we drafted 2 wrs.he blew the big play when we were leading in the playoffs.ALL HE HAD TO DO WAS TACKLE THE GUY instead its a pick six.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[QUOTE=jdlea;462861]Dude, you can't tell me you don't miss Jacquez Green...LOL[/QUOTE]

Hey I miss Shane Matthews!

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

I have toally erased the Spurrier era. It didn't happen.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;462910]I think people forget that in Steve Spurrier's (and Norv Turner's) tenure in Washington, we didn't really have good teams. That tends to be crucial in how well a coach performs.[/quote]

Could not disagree more...you forget that we were predicted to win the Super Bowl in 99, and especially 2000. Those were both Turner years.
Also, while in hindsight we understand our team was not that great during the Spurrier era, we all thought it a playoff caliber team. Problem is, like a ship without a rudder, with poor coaching means it's going no where.

[quote]Steve Spurrier has proven to be a good coach -- in college. You don't win National Championships by being a complete idiot. To me, the Spurrier experiment just highlighted the extraordinary differences between the NFL and the NCAA. He, like many of us, never realized those differences until things began to fall apart.[/QUOTE]

Very true.


Oh, and first down...I would LOVE to forget Spurrier, could you please find some men in black de-nuerolizer for me...PLEEEEEEASE??????

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

I think the biggest thing between the two, is Zorn knows how to handle NFL players. According to Tim Hasselbeck Spurriers biggest issue was he treated the players like grown men, they took advantage of it and it lost the locker room for him. I also think Spurrier needed to be more aggressive in acquiring talent. We had some bad players on that team. Trung Candidate as a starting RB? Shane Matthews? Considering the points he put up, his offense wasn't absolutely terrible.

I think Zorn knows the NFL, knows the players. I just want to know how he calls games and deals with the day to day responsibilities of being a head coach.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[quote=jsarno;462949]Could not disagree more...you forget that we were predicted to win the Super Bowl in 99, and especially 2000. Those were both Turner years.
Also, while in hindsight we understand our team was not that great during the Spurrier era, we all thought it a playoff caliber team. Problem is, like a ship without a rudder, with poor coaching means it's going no where.



Very true.


Oh, and first down...I would LOVE to forget Spurrier, could you please find some men in black de-nuerolizer for me...PLEEEEEEASE??????[/quote]

I agree, Turner's teams definitely were not completely lacking in talent. He had a few teams that underachieved considering the talent level. And he had a say in personnel too. Drafting Shuler was his call, so the no talent excuse doesn't really fly to me.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

I think Zorn will do a good job and I hope he does a great job here. He definitely has shown already that he is as good as any of the other candidates. Between OTA's and pushing the rookie WR's and teaching JC I am positive not another one(even GW) could have come through any better to this point. Remember Gibbs started 0-5 his first time but I am expecting at least 3-2 or 4-1 from this team. ( As high on the Skins as I am, I just don't believe the Giants or Cowboys are going to have anywhere near the seasons they did last year, and we played even or better against them then, I just don't know where Philly will be so that may be one loss possibly)

And as for the other coaches between Gibbs 1 and Gibbs 2, they all were essential to showing Snyder what NOT to chase after.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

After seeing the results of the first game and watching a little bit of the Bills' game, I do believe Coach Zorn belongs. He's going to have some bumps along the way, but he has re-energized this team and they some more focused than in the past. Nothing against Coach Gibbs - he is and will forever be a legend - but this team is really focused.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

[quote=jdlea;462699]I was going to post this in the Camp Confidential thread, but I didn't feel like it was totally on topic, so I decided it deserved its own thread.

I definitely get the feeling that the Skins believe in Jim Zorn, it seems like everyone is responding to him and Cooley said that everyone believes in him.

I heard a great quote about pitching once that I think can apply to pretty much anything: "If you act like you belong, other people will start to believe you belong and then you will believe that they believe you belong." I really think that Zorn feels like he belongs in his head coaching role, I also think his players think he belongs and I don't think it will be long before the rest of the league starts to realize that he belongs.

I really don't know why, I'm normally very cautiously optimistic when it comes to the Redskins. They've broken my heart a few too many times, however, I will not lie, I have a huge man crush on Jim Zorn. I think it's because we're finally in a situation where we didn't chase the big name and make the big hire. Zorn could actually have a Bill Cowher like tenure here, he's a guy who could coach for the next 10 years and it's probably been since Norv (ugh) since that was a real possibility. Everyone knew that Marty, Spurrier and Gibbs weren't in it for the long haul.

I get all warm and fuzzy when I think about Zorn and Campbell bring back a winning tradition to back Washington. I would love to see something like 7 out of 10 years in the playoffs and a Super Bowl ring or two. I finally feel like this team has found long term solutions at HC and QB and I couldn't be more excited about that.

I want to end by saying, that I really appreciate what Joe Gibbs did for this team. While I was, overall, not too totally impressed with his tenure, one thing he did was bring back a pride to this team that I feel like was lacking under Schottenhiemer and Spurrier. Gibbs definitely turned the team around, I do wish he had been able to bring a title back to Washington, but I'm hoping Zorn can pick up where he left off and finish the job. I also love his approach to Campbell, the thought that his success is tied to Zorn and if Campbell plays poorly, it seems that Zorn will take that as a personal failure.[/quote]Great post. Count me as a believer too. The Danny clearly decided Zorn was the best guy to make Jason Campbell an elite QB. I'm very bullish on their future.

Re: I believe Zorn belongs
 

i think he belongs to, i heard the announcers say that after we ran out of timeouts he gave his challenge flag to someone else so he couldnt make the mistake of throwing it like gibbs did last yr when we played buffalo.2 TO back to back