A Very Troubling Statistic
 

Straight from this morning's Washington Times:

[I]In the last five games, the Redskins have only [B]one[/B] first-half touchdown - a 3-yard drive - [B]in 32 possessions[/B]. [/I]

That is astounding. The defense is effectively keeping us in every game while the offense hasn't held up its end, even against below average teams (Rams, Browns, Lions). We've gotten virtually nothing from our three receivers drafted in the 2nd round, and now Moss is gimpy once again. What changes (strategic, personnel, etc.) would you like to see from Zorn after the bye to address the lack of 1st half scoring?

I will volunteer two personnel moves - I don't see what Yoder gives the offense that Fred Davis wouldn't give and then some. I also would like to see Heyer starting at RT to help stabilize the pass protection.

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I very much agree with both of those suggestions.

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I don't think personnel is really the problem. The problem is that we can't sustain drives because we keep shooting ourselves in the foot with penalties. This team is starting look like its old self with all the penalties and turnovers.

Hopefully the bye will help the coaching staff re-evaluate everything and the players can get some rest both mentally and physically.

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yonder really does'nt do much.i'm all for fred davis,but heyer sucks.

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[quote=johnerotten;497735]yonder really does'nt do much.i'm all for fred davis,but heyer sucks.[/quote]

I'm assuming you meant Yoder. I really only like him in goalline pass situations. He seems to be clutch there. I'd really like to see Davis get some time. And yes, I think we all can agree that Heyer is quite the goat.

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I read this somewhere so it's not original but...deactivate M Kelly if he's not going to play and get another WR. Where's Reche Caldwell or that other guy we had last year? Bring them in.

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Hindsight is 20/20 but it probaly wasnt the smartest move going into the season with Moss, ARE then thrash as our 3rd reciever, relying on 2nd round rookies to add depth after that.

One injury to moss and we are left with ARE and thrash who will not cut it against good to great D teams. I doubt reche would be an improvement or solution.

Dick Lebeau plain outcoached zorn, it happens we cant win em all.

go skins!!

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This statistic would be way more troubling if we weren't significantly better in the second half.

I agree with both suggestions. Heyer gives us the best chance to win at RT, and Yoder doesn't do anything well enough to warrant playing time when both of the other TEs are healthy.

I said in a live blog yesterday that Yoder blocks like a receiving TE, and has the hands of a lineman.

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Reche Caldwell is a St. Louis Ram, for those wondering

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[quote=over the mountain;497763]Hindsight is 20/20 but it probaly wasnt the smartest move going into the season with Moss, ARE then thrash as our 3rd reciever, relying on 2nd round rookies to add depth after that.

One injury to moss and we are left with ARE and thrash who will not cut it against good to great D teams. I doubt reche would be an improvement or solution.

Dick Lebeau plain outcoached zorn, it happens we cant win em all.

go skins!![/quote]

Actually the truth is, JC, got gun shy, started to pass to check down only, yea, he didnt have time, but Zorn didnt do a good job preparing of the blitz, like this, watching the game was like watching paint dry, it was horrible, and even though Carlos Rogers is playing lights out, the differents between an elite DB and a good one, is getting the int's. that are giving to you and making big plays, he pick that, we up 13-3 and the steelers lose their mojo. the truth is we need Jason Taylor in to help create pressure and we have to get picks, if we dont, doesnt matter where we finish, we will be one and done in the playoffs.

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Our offense is pretty bad right now, except for Portis' running. Opposing defenses saw last night how to shut us down: pressure Campbell, and the passing game is gone.

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[quote=johnerotten;497735]yonder really does'nt do much.i'm all for fred davis,but heyer sucks.[/quote]

Heyer sucks? Are you being sarcastic? He may not be lights out, but he can't be any worse than the guy who was put on his ass by a linebacker, and attempted a half assed chop block on a player that he outweighs by roughly 60 pounds, AND got caught off guard by his own offense's silent snap count.

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[quote=Southpaw;497779]Heyer sucks? Are you being sarcastic? He may not be lights out, but he can't be any worse than the guy who was put on his ass by a linebacker, and attempted a half assed chop block on a player that he outweighs by roughly 60 pounds, AND got caught off guard by his own offense's silent snap count.[/quote]


AMEN!!!

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Im not surprise, but ona positive note think of all the second half touchdowns.

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I know everyone is freaking out about how bad the skins played, we have to remember they are 6-3. When "experts" say the outcome of the game is decided by a handful of plays- in this case its true. If you look at the 40 yard (questionable) pass interference call and the blocked punt, here are two plays that cost them 14 points. You take that from the final score and you cant say the steelers played that much better than the skins. The defense did their job.

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Sorry correction to last post-those two plays cost the skins 10 points. Erase those the score is 13-6? something to think about

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[quote=DarkKnight;497772]Actually the truth is, JC, got gun shy, started to pass to check down only, yea, he didnt have time, but Zorn didnt do a good job preparing of the blitz, like this, watching the game was like watching paint dry, it was horrible, and even though Carlos Rogers is playing lights out, the differents between an elite DB and a good one, is getting the int's. that are giving to you and making big plays, he pick that, we up 13-3 and the steelers lose their mojo. the truth is we need Jason Taylor in to help create pressure and we have to get picks, if we dont, doesnt matter where we finish, we will be one and done in the playoffs.[/quote]

watching the game on tv you cant tell if someone is open downfield because the camera stays on the qb, but it seemed to me that plays where JC had time he would scan down field and I assume didnt throw it because no one was open. i also assumed no one was open because moss was dinged up and our receivers on the field couldnt get separation. alot of assumption on my part.

i thought that pass inter call on carlos was legit, the steeler fans are complaining about the helmet to helmet call and i thought that was a good right call aswell.
go skins!

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[quote=downtown4life;497790]I know everyone is freaking out about how bad the skins played, we have to remember they are 6-3. When "experts" say the outcome of the game is decided by a handful of plays- in this case its true. If you look at the 40 yard (questionable) pass interference call and the blocked punt, here are two plays that cost them 14 points. You take that from the final score and you cant say the steelers played that much better than the skins. The defense did their job.[/quote]

Well Pitt tried the onside kick and we had the turnover, both great field position and we did nothing but 3 and out. Good teams capitalize on those kind of mistakes.

Everyone keeps saying we are 6-3 like we dominated those 6 games. We could very easily be 3-6. We haven't dominated anyone and if we are a good team we should have dominated at least one of the previous 3 teams before the Steelers.

I know some believe our Oline and Dline are fine and have a couple of years left in them, but I don't agree and think we needed to address these this past offseason and we didn't and are paying for it now. Campbell is getting too much pressure and we are becoming a team that teams are going to stack the line to stop Portis and all we do is dump the short passes that gain us a yard or 2. We aren't stretching the field at all anymore. Campbell needs to start throwing the ball deep and letting his receivers make the plays.

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[quote=Jake2008;497794]Well Pitt tried the onside kick and we had the turnover, both great field position and we did nothing but 3 and out. Good teams capitalize on those kind of mistakes.

Everyone keeps saying we are 6-3 like we dominated those 6 games. We could very easily be 3-6. We haven't dominated anyone and if we are a good team we should have dominated at least one of the previous 3 teams before the Steelers.

I know some believe our Oline and Dline are fine and have a couple of years left in them, but I don't agree and think we needed to address these this past offseason and we didn't and are paying for it now. Campbell is getting too much pressure and we are becoming a team that teams are going to stack the line to stop Portis and all we do is dump the short passes that gain us a yard or 2. We aren't stretching the field at all anymore. Campbell needs to start throwing the ball deep and letting his receivers make the plays.[/quote]

Its never good enough. Were not a dominating team, we have a rookie coach, and were second in the east. I cant complain. Its better than what all you naysayers predicted us to be at this point. We are 6-3 and every post seems to be about how bad we suck; id hate to see what this forum would look like if we were 3-6. My conclusion: Go root for another team if the skins suck that bad.

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6-3 is what it is, a good record. Nobody said anything about those wins being dominating, since when does a win have to be dominant to count? I love the logic of we could easily be 3-6, well if you look at any team in the league you could easily apply that logic. Fact is we're not 3-6. Good teams win games period, it doesn't matter how pretty or ugly they are.

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[quote=Jake2008;497794]Well Pitt tried the onside kick and we had the turnover, both great field position and we did nothing but 3 and out. Good teams capitalize on those kind of mistakes.

Everyone keeps saying we are 6-3 like we dominated those 6 games. We could very easily be 3-6. We haven't dominated anyone and if we are a good team we should have dominated at least one of the previous 3 teams before the Steelers.

[B]I know some believe our Oline and Dline are fine and have a couple of years left in them, but I don't agree and think we needed to address these this past offseason and we didn't and are paying for it now.[/B] Campbell is getting too much pressure and we are becoming a team that teams are going to stack the line to stop Portis and all we do is dump the short passes that gain us a yard or 2. We aren't stretching the field at all anymore. Campbell needs to start throwing the ball deep and letting his receivers make the plays.[/quote]I've been saying for years on this forum that the best way to build a team is from the inside out. Look at most of the best teams in the NFL, and they are strong on both the O and D lines. Tennessee has become dominant on both lines, which explains how they keep winning with Kerry Collins essentially playing caretaker (don't mess up) at QB. The last time that we drafted a lineman in either rounds 1 or 2 was Chris Samuels in 2000. Aside from adding a CB, I want to see significant attention devoted to both lines in the next draft. If Vinny drafts another pass catching TE just because he's the best player on his board, I think that I'll snap.

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[quote=SmootSmack;497770]Reche Caldwell is a St. Louis Ram, for those wondering[/quote]

Sorry..the other is Keenan McCardell. He's old but i bet he can still get open occasionally. Which is better than Kelly can do at the moment.

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Why is everyone harping on Campbell?
Coverage was great downfield, Moss was hampered by his injury, the oline pass blocking was poor.

Campbell is AWESOME when we win, and its ALL HIS FAULT when we lose.
Face it, we were dominated.

I lay this TREND at the hands of the offensive coordinator, ZORN.
I am not suprized, he said it himself.
Defenses will catch up to what his is doing, this happened about 4 games ago, when we started struggling with teams like the rams, lions, browns....c'mon man...
Our defense is solid, the issue is the offense.

Bottom line is, Zorn did not adjust, pregame or halftime, to account for the Pitt defense PLUS he abandoned the run.

I mentioned it in the predictions thread.
The only way to win this was with Shotgun, draws, reverses, screens, misdirection, runs up the gut....that is how you slow down a fiery defense.
My only question was how Moss and Samuels would hold up.
Unfortunately, Zorn did almost none of this....I only remember one or two screens and a couple draws. This is why I gave Zorn a 3.5 of 5....he is not tested yet, he has not stayed ahead of the curve, Defensive coordinators have figured out how to play this offense.....we are still 2nd in the league in rushing yet only 25 in Points.

I say it is time to add some new plays and players to the mix....we haven't seen any production from our top 3 picks....time to MAN UP. and C'mon Zorn, call a play thats not on film yet.

And I also throw Special Teams in here, they have generally stunk...except kicker.
Did you see that Pittsburg Gunner on the punts? He was beating 2 blockers every time causing randle el to fair catch everything....and if there was no punt blocked, we'd easily be in the game...this is easily Danny Smiths crappiest coaching year here, he aint helping...thank goodness we recovered that onside kick, I am suprised that we did based on who was on the field to attempt the recovery...lucky.

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[quote=skinsnut;497805]...
And I also throw Special Teams in here, they have generally stunk...except kicker.[/quote]Our punt team has now given up 2 TDs on punt returns, plus the huge blocked punt last night. If I'm Zorn, I'm taking a hard look at Danny Smith's coaching of that unit.

Suisham has been a bright spot. Both of those FGs last night would have been right down the middle from 50.

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on to the bye week and then i worry about dallas week there after.

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[quote=Mattyk72;497798]6-3 is what it is, a good record. Nobody said anything about those wins being dominating, since when does a win have to be dominant to count? I love the logic of we could easily be 3-6, well if you look at any team in the league you could easily apply that logic. Fact is we're not 3-6. Good teams win games period, it doesn't matter how pretty or ugly they are.[/quote]

Sorry that you don't agree with the logic, but doesn't mean it is invalid because you don't happen to agree. You just have a different opinion so sorry if I am not allowed to express mine. I never said it has to be dominant to count, but I do believe good teams will dominate bad teams. We have won by margins of 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 8 points. Those games could have gone either way. Take the Giants, they have won by margins of 3, 7, 9, 12, 21, 28 and 38. I would say 4 of those are pretty dominant and they didn't have much to worry about.

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[quote=Jake2008;497812]Sorry that you don't agree with the logic, but doesn't mean it is invalid because you don't happen to agree. You just have a different opinion so sorry if I am not allowed to express mine. I never said it has to be dominant to count, but I do believe good teams will dominate bad teams. We have won by margins of 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 8 points. Those games could have gone either way. Take the Giants, they have won by margins of 3, 7, 9, 12, 21, 28 and 38. I would say 4 of those are pretty dominant and they didn't have much to worry about.[/quote]

I didn't say anything about you not being allowed to have an opinion. I simply disagreed and stated my thoughts. Welcome to message board 101. :)

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it is what it is and a win is a win in this league no matter who we play..

i,ll gladly take 6-3 also.

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[quote=SouperMeister;497730]

I will volunteer two personnel moves - I don't see what Yoder gives the offense that Fred Davis wouldn't give and then some. I also would like to see Heyer starting at RT to help stabilize the pass protection.[/quote]
I agree with both of these moves. I also think the o-line deserves some attention in the draft. I've said before that I'm kind of old school in that I think a lot of games are won in the trenches. Without the Hogs we would'nt have 3 Super Bowl Trophies. We need to seriously address this during the draft. I personally feel like a big part of the problem is our reluctence to go downfield. The opponents defense needs to understand that you will not hesitate to go deep to keep them honest. Even if we don't complete the pass, we send a message. One of the Steelers biggest plays came on an incompletion. We got interference and they got 45 yards. If I don't respect your deep game and you've got the leading rusher in the NFL, I know what I'm doing, I'm sitting on the line all day long.

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[quote=53Fan;497821]I agree with both of these moves. I also think the o-line deserves some attention in the draft. I've said before that I'm kind of old school in that I think a lot of games are won in the trenches. Without the Hogs we would'nt have 3 Super Bowl Trophies. We need to seriously address this during the draft. [B]I personally feel like a big part of the problem is our reluctence to go downfield. The opponents defense needs to understand that you will not hesitate to go deep to keep them honest.[/B] Even if we don't complete the pass, we send a message. One of the Steelers biggest plays came on an imcompletion. We got interference and they got 45 yards. If I don't respect your deep game and you've got the leading rusher in the NFL, I know what I'm doing, I'm sitting on the line all day long.[/quote]

I agree. I would love to see Campbell throw deep more and let his receivers make the play. You can't always wait for the receiver to be wide open and have to trust that they will make the play. Especially on 3rd and whatever. I hate seeing the 5 yard pass hoping the receiver will make it to the down marker only to get stopped short. Let it rip once in awhile and keep them honest. Campbell has the arm to do it.

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People longing for the deep ball have obviously missed the hiring of Jim Zorn, a west coast disciple. Moss with a bad hammy didn't help matters last night either, along with the constant pressure.

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[quote=Jake2008;497812]Sorry that you don't agree with the logic, but doesn't mean it is invalid because you don't happen to agree. You just have a different opinion so sorry if I am not allowed to express mine. I never said it has to be dominant to count, but I do believe good teams will dominate bad teams. We have won by margins of 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 8 points. Those games could have gone either way. Take the Giants, they have won by margins of 3, 7, 9, 12, 21, 28 and 38. I would say 4 of those are pretty dominant and they didn't have much to worry about.[/quote]


I think this is a valid point . . .

Yes we're 6-3 and that is a good record (and a completely unexpected record) at this point in the season, and no amount of speculation can change that.

But if as fans we can consider things like the difficulty of our schedule when trying to evaluate the strength of our team, certainly margin of victory can come into consideration.

These feelings of inadequacy on the part of the fans is also somewhat valid. We came into this game under the pretense that this would be a statement game, one that decided whether or not the struggles of this team against clearly inferior teams the past few weeks was simply them playing down, or cause for legitimate concern. Pitt was the first very good team we have faced from outside of our division, and to have been beaten so convincingly is a huge letdown.

So yeah I'm glad we're 6-3, and I'm fairly confident that we'll make the playoffs, but after losing to Pitt we cannot start thinking of our team as elite. Furthermore, this game has exposed a huge weakness in our Offense, with alot of pressure and no Moss we're managable. Now Pitt has the best defense in the NFL, so No, I doubt many other teams will hold us to only six points, even under similar conditions, but we should certainly have some concerns about our Offense. And that may be accurately reflected in our slim margin of victory in our 6 wins.

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I agree with replacing Heyer for Jansen, and the Yoder-Davis switch, but I honestly believe that a lot of blame for the offencive stagnation in the first half rest squarely on the shoulders of Jason Campbell. I don't see his passion for the game, or atleast its not expressly evident in a visceral sense. The intensity just isn't there for me, not to mention his dropback from under center looks almost robotic. He's a trained passer not an improvisational natural athlete. This is probably not the best analogy to make on a football site but its the difference between watching a ballet dancer and a contemporary dancer. The ballet dancer is groomed, technically sound, but rigid, stoic, and apathetic. The contemporary dancer on the other hand, may not fit into molded perfection, but their movement reflects their emotion, they are daring and fearless and passionate and there is no question about their commitment even if its flawed. Take Brett Farve for example, the guy has made more mistakes than homeless, crack addicted prostitute, but is still considered one of the greatest to ever play the position. It seems to me that Zorn is like a father that gives his kid the keys to the car but won't allow him to drive any further then around the block. I say unleash the fury.

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We're winning VERY narrowly. Sure, a W is a W, we should be happy with 6-3, blah biddy blah blah. The point is, anyone who isn't concerned is blind. We just got exposed in the worst way. Like caught with your pants down with shrinkage kind of exposed.

We have glaring weaknesses in the most important of areas- pressuring the QB, forcing turnovers, pass protection (for our the franchise QB we FINALLY have after years and years), and SCORING. Sound defense and a good running game have helped mask these deficiencies somewhat.

We have the 25th ranked scoring offense. That's just bad. Someone on another thread mentioned how we're in the top 10 in total offense and defense (10th and 4th respectively). The NFL's "total" stat is garbage. It's yardage based. Points win games, not yards. I don't care how many pretty yards we gain. When they turn into punts and field goal attempts, we're not gonna win much, especially when up against tough defenses.

We've got a long way to go if we hope to win any playoff games, or even make the postseason for that matter.

I know people think I'm a debbie downer around here. That's fine. If I'm saying anything that's wrong, by all means, tell me.

I'm thrilled to be 6-3. I love JC's development, the defense's stoutness, Portis' MVP caliber 1st half of the season, the job Zorn is doing... But I want to keep improving, so I call it like I see it.

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[quote=Mattyk72;497833]People longing for the deep ball have obviously missed the hiring of Jim Zorn, a west coast disciple. Moss with a bad hammy didn't help matters last night either, along with the constant pressure.[/quote]

I understand it's WC but even WC goes long once in awhile. This isn't exactly the strict definition of WC we've been playing anyway. Moss had a couple of fairly long balls in the second half of the Detroit game. That certainly helped us win the game. I understand he's hurt. But what exactly do we have DT out there for anyway? I'm not sure we have anything to lose by going deep to him once in awhile compared to what we may gain.

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[quote=53Fan;497893]I understand it's WC but even WC goes long once in awhile. This isn't exactly the strict definition of WC we've been playing anyway. Moss had a couple of fairly long balls in the second half of the Detroit game. That certainly helped us win the game. I understand he's hurt. [B]But what exactly do we have DT out there for anyway?[/B] I'm not sure we have anything to lose by going deep to him once in awhile compared to what we may gain.[/quote]

From what I'm reading, he's still running the wrong routes. At this point in the season that's really disappointing.

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Thomas cut off his route which led to the 2nd pick last night. I know we want to see him do well but when you can't do the basics on the field you're just not going to get many looks.

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[quote=Mattyk72;497896]Thomas cut off his route which led to the 2nd pick last night. I know we want to see him do well but when you can't do the basics on the field you're just not going to get many looks.[/quote]

Oh man, I didn't hear that specifically. That's really bad. Come on Devin. All that physical talent and he can't learn the playbook? Grrrrrr.

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I'm not too worried.

First, a lot of the important players were out or questionable. I would have to think the latter would have a tough time being 100%. (Among them, Samuels, Moss, Landry, Rogers). That may be why Rogers gave one of his old-style cushions on the TD.

Another, we were really in the game until another QB came in who we weren't prepared for. Sometimes that works to one team's benefit, sometimes to the other's. Ben's QB rating for the first half was around 15.

Lastly, some people here say we aren't dominating games. I heartily disagree. The reason that the games have been close is that the other teams have been scoring TDs to get close near the end of the game and hoping for a miracle. I'd say that's pretty solid.

At the same time, I feel as though the playcalling has been more to avoid losing games than to win them. (As opposed to when we were playing better earlier in the season.) I want them to open it up; not so much long passes as making sure they get all their weapons involved in each game. This will give them one-on-ones with their good players for long gains. I've also been seeing too many running plays on first down.

Lastly, the receivers seem to have reverted to ignoring the first-down marker when running their routes. This is huge. If you (frequently) need 2 completions (or successful plays) to get the first down instead of one, it greatly reduces your chance of getting first downs and getting extended drives. Against the Eagles and the Cowboys it seemed they were doing a good job of running their routes to get the first downs.

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[quote=Mattyk72;497896]Thomas cut off his route which led to the 2nd pick last night. I know we want to see him do well but when you can't do the basics on the field you're just not going to get many looks.[/quote]

I did hear Charley Casserly say today, "The Redskin coaches are'nt stupid, if Devin Thomas could help they would go to him." It is EXTREMELY disappointing to hear he can't even get the basics right. It's just frustrating. :(