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saden1 02-01-2009 11:38 AM

Economic Stimulus: Tax Cuts vs Government Spending
With the economy needing a jump start which form of economic stimulus do you want to see more of and why?

Trample the Elderly 02-01-2009 11:53 AM

Re: Economic Stimulus: Tax Cuts vs Government Spending
[quote=saden1;524302]With the economy needing a jump start which form of economic stimulus do you want to see more of and why?[/quote]

Damn it Saden, you beat me to the punch. I'll give you my reply on my thread.

Trample the Elderly 02-01-2009 11:58 AM

Economic Solutions from a Layman.
Economic Solutions: Part 1

(1) Fight inflation and deflation. The first thing that needs to be done is to stop printing money. No country in history has been able to stop an economic meltdown without a strong currency.


After the dollar was taken off the gold standard the only thing that is propping it up is faith in the American government. We have been dodging the bullet for years because the U.S. dollar is the reserve currency of the world. If the world should lose faith in our ability to pay off our debt than it would spell the end of the dominance of the dollar. The price of oil is also tied to the dollar. The dollar isn't in as bad of a shape as many would have you believe (See article below) but there isn't any reason why we need to intentionally inflate it.

(2) Pay off our debts and stop borrowing money. This seems counterintuitive seeing how the U.S. is a consumer nation now. The same logic that exist for every small household should exist for a government. If you walk into a bank and ask for a loan the first thing the bank will do is run a credit report. If you're in debt up to your eyeballs with a 580 FICO, no respectable bank will loan you money. If they did the interest rate for your loan would be high because the risk the bank is taking on is equally high.

(3) Get out of the Oil game. Oil is a strategic resource and it's a limited commodity. That means nations will fight for the influence of the nations that produce it and the market that controls it.


It is unreasonable and unconscionable to be the police for the oil cartels in the Middle East. You can argue whether the Second Gulf War was fought over oil. There isn't much of an argument over the first. If Saddam Hussein were to overrun Saudi Arabia as he had done Kuwait, then a vast majority of the world's oil resources would've been in control of the Iraqi Baathist. How much money has been spent to defend Saudi Arabia from Saddam Hussein? How much money would we save if we didn't have to deploy Carrier Battle Groups to the Persian Gulf? How much money are we spending now to defend the Iraqi's oil infrastructure? We get oil from Mexico, Canada, and Russia. We also produce a lot our selves. The only problem is we also consume the most.

[url=http://www.jeffvail.net/2007/03/stormy-weather.html]Jeff Vail - Law, Energy, Geopolitics, and Organizational Theory[/url]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baathist]Ba'ath Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]
[url=http://www.opec.org/library/FAQs/aboutOPEC/q3.htm]Who are OPEC Member Countries?[/url]
[url=http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/country/index.cfm]Energy Information Administration (EIA) - International World Energy Data and Analysis Current and Historical Data Maps Oil Production Consumption and Reserves World Regions and Country level information[/url]

(4) The only logical route, to at least cut our dependence on oil with our current technology, is nuclear energy. Although it isn't as clean and safe as many would have us believe, it isn't as bad either. Almost the entire U.S. Fleet is nuclear. No government in the world would invest capital in ships that were prone to exploding, killing everyone on board, and flooding their ports with radiation. You can make a case with Russia. Seeing how under budgeted the Russian Navy is, it's a miracle they haven't had more problems than they've had. Our electrical grid is overloaded right now, this should be a priority. France gets almost all of its energy from nuclear power. If they can do it why can't we?

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France]Nuclear power in France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Many will be concerned about the waste. If we invest as much money as getting rid of the waste as we do building the plants then we'd have no problem. I personally like the idea of elevating it into space. Who'd complain, the Klingons? Nuclear energy is a lot cheaper than going to war all of the time and it kills a fewer amount of people. Have the power plants responsible for cleaning up the waste. I guarantee you if they're good business men they'll still be able to make money.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste]Radioactive waste - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

(4) Cut oil consumption through mass transportation. When I lived in Japan I went to Hiroshima almost every weekend on the light rail system. They also had a bullet train. When I lived in the East Bay I traveled to the city everyday on the Bay Area BART system. I've always liked taking an electric train to where I need to go because I hate driving. There is no reason why we can't have a national light rail and or bullet train system. If we do it in an economically reasonable manner it will make money in the long run.

[url=http://www.bart.gov/]BART - Bay Area Rapid Transit[/url]

(5) Close all of our military bases overseas. There is no reason that the U.S should be the world's policemen.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases]List of United States military bases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

(6) Put those troops on our borders. If you're really concerned about Mexicans than cut the money flowing into the drug cartels. Drugs flow across our borders along with human smugglers and god knows what else. If you think it's bad in Iraq, try Mexico. It's a war down there between the government and the drug kingpins and the kingpins are winning. People are being raped, robbed, murdered, and kidnapped all of the time. It's spilling over our border as well. Preventing drugs from entering the U.S. will cut off the major source of money to the cartels. How much money do we spend on drug prevention and treatment? How many people are rotting in prison over drugs? How many corrupt bankers are making a ton of loot washing money for the cartels? How would MS-13, The Aryan Brotherhood, or The Gangster Disciples make money if they couldn't hustle Meth and Coke? How much money could State and Federal Police Agencies save if they're weren't locking up dealers and smugglers all the time?

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War]Mexican Drug War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

"From the Romans to the Romanovs, economic prosperity is a nation's security."
Trample the Elderly

SmootSmack 02-01-2009 12:30 PM

Re: Economic Stimulus: Tax Cuts vs Government Spending
Let's keep it all in one thread

The Goat 02-01-2009 06:15 PM

Re: Economic Stimulus: Tax Cuts vs Government Spending
As things look more and more similar to the depression era the consensus among Keynes, Milton, Stiglitz and hell of a lot of other economists ought to be repeated... the Great Depression was ultimately the result of poor monetary policy. In a sentence, the crash wiped out about 1/3 of the nation's money supply which induced horrific deflation. Deflation ruins anyone who is in debt, regardless of what kind of debt, as the dollars "owed" to the creditor are much more valuable than when they were initially borrowed. Tragically the depression occurred before modern monetary policy was developed and really only Keynes at the time understood the US had to replenish the money supply before the economy would recover. Of course he preferred to do this via gov spending and that debate still rages today; however the basic principle that the depression was a phenomenon of monetary policy is accepted by all the great economists. Basically we need to continue to infuse the national economy so long as inflation is not an issue. The method by which this happens is gonna be the big fight.

... btw i heard Monica Crowley say on national tv that only tax cuts can fix a recession/depression. I don't think the radical right has learned anything in 50 or 60 years and that is flat scary.

saden1 02-02-2009 03:04 AM

Re: Economic Stimulus: Tax Cuts vs Government Spending
Crowley only has superficial knowledge of economics and [URL="http://www.slate.com/id/1003470/"]a host of other subjects[/URL]. Her attempt at being serious and knowledgeable on The McLaughlin Group is truly sad. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_McLaughlin_Group#Criticism"]Perhaps Jack Germond[/URL] was right.

Trample the Elderly 02-02-2009 12:26 PM

Re: Economic Stimulus: Tax Cuts vs Government Spending
[quote=firstdown;524499]I say why not spend a trillion dollars on wasted goverment programs so the Dems can get more people dependent on goverment and secure their base for the next election. Then the cycle can run its corse for another 4 years of new goverment programs and I can retire and just wait for my monthly check from our goverment. That will give me more time to fish and play golf. I'm all for 1% of the American people working so the other 99% can sit around doing nothing.[/quote]

How are the Croaker looking over there? The ones I've been seeing are small. Do you know when they're supposed to open the new Buck Roe Pier?

Trample the Elderly 02-02-2009 01:58 PM

Re: Economic Stimulus: Tax Cuts vs Government Spending
[quote=firstdown;524521]All the croaker have moved out for the winter but the stripers are running pretty good. We went out yesterday and was met by 4 foot seas (this time of year you can onl fish in the ocean) but we did bring home 5 stripers ranging from 34 to 43 inches. This link says its opening in spring 2009 and it looks pretty impressive. The only time I ever fish from a pier is in Nags Head NC as I have a free pass to one that is within walking distance to my parents cottage.
[URL="http://www.hampton.gov/buckroe_pier_construction.html"]City of Hampton - Buckroe Pier Construction[/URL]

If you like croakers check out this croaker a friend of mine caught which set a new WORLD RECORD. I think I hear their story at every meeting our club has and the funny part was they thought it was a state record and latter found out they where talking world record.
[url=http://hamptonroads.com/node/312171]Portsmouth fisherman hauls in world-record croaker | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com[/url][/quote]

Damn nice fish! Thanks.

saden1 02-02-2009 02:52 PM

Re: Economic Stimulus: Tax Cuts vs Government Spending
The question "with the economy needing a jump start which form of economic stimulus do you want to see more of and why?" still remains.

Schneed10 02-02-2009 04:00 PM

Re: Economic Stimulus: Tax Cuts vs Government Spending
I think you need a mixture of both, but I'd like to see it have a heavier slant to tax cuts.

On one hand, you can't go giving all the money to the taxpayers because consumer confidence is so low right now. That's a sure sign that many people would take that money and simply save it for a rainy day (ie job loss). If the money sits in people's savings accounts it will do little to create jobs.

But on the other hand, the government will not infuse the money in the most efficient manner. You have to ensure that lenders are solvent enough to confidently lend money - so I agree with bank bailouts. And you have to give a push to companies to incent them to pursue alternative energy sources - so I agree with building energy infrastructure. But bailing out Detroit? Bad idea in the long run; if GM is failing to compete with the Toyotas of the world, it's because of their own bad decisionmaking, and propping them up is only postponing their inevitable demise. The only reason to bail out Detroit? Millions of jobs depend on it, and if they go under, our unemployment goes up into double digits.

But governmental spending in the form of auto bailouts is the ultimate short-term, short-sighted fix. Taxpayers may indeed initially hoard a tax rebate as the consumer confidence index indicates, but over the next two years most low-income households will spend through that money, gradually infusing it back into the economy. They'll have little choice, because in the face of rising costs they'll need to tap that money. That infusion of cash will help jobs and earnings pick back up, the stock market will begin to improve, which will ultimately spur improvement in consumer confidence. Low, middle, and high income households will begin ramping up their spending in kind as their fears begin to fade, and the economy will be back on track and humming along by the middle of 2010.

dmek25 02-02-2009 04:26 PM

Re: Economic Stimulus: Tax Cuts vs Government Spending
unless alot of stiff rules and regulations follow those tax cuts, im against them. corporate greed is at an all time high. handing those C.E.O's more money, without a checks and balance system, turns into a big joke. just look at wall street, and all of the bonuses that followed the bailout

Schneed10 02-02-2009 04:31 PM

Re: Economic Stimulus: Tax Cuts vs Government Spending
[quote=dmek25;524576]unless alot of stiff rules and regulations follow those tax cuts, im against them. corporate greed is at an all time high. handing those C.E.O's more money, without a checks and balance system, turns into a big joke. just look at wall street, and all of the bonuses that followed the bailout[/quote]

The CEO bonuses and corporate greed are kind of an unrelated issue to tax cuts, but you still make a good point. You could direct the tax cuts/rebates to the bottom 95% of earners in the country. That would keep the money out of the hands of the very rich. It's the bottom 95% who would be most likely to spend it.

The very rich (the top 5%) would be most likely to hoard the money, doing very little to kickstart the economy.

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