Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

Just a question that I'm finally going to bring up...

Whenever a former awesome vet (ex. Brooks) is released I always read about how someone needs to pick him up and he can mentor the younger players. I TOTALLY understand that there are veteran tips that true students of the game can pass on, but am I being a dick in saying that overall this might make up 1% of the young players overall experience?

I just think that a lot of people overvalue having veteran players on a team to "tutor" the young ones. I feel like if they were great coaches we'd have already asked them to coach if their playing days are behind them.

I feel the same way about coaching up. A lot of us had the hope (including myself) that by reuniting players like Erasmus James with former coaches that all of a sudden a light would be flicked on. Just a little rant...

Re: Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

Well, there's something to be said for veteran leadership. I know I heard on a broadcast last year that Roy Williams was looking for veteran help when he got to Detroit because he didn't know how to best prepare for opponents. It's much more difficult to succeed in the NFL, ask Devin Thomas, and it takes a lot more than just relying on physical ability. In college, a lot of times, a guy is a man among boys and he can dominate just by showing up against say 70% of his competition. In the NFL, most guys can't just show up and be great, they need another player (preferably a great one) to teach them how to prepare for games.

That's my opinion.

Re: Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

[quote=jdlea;565234]Well, there's something to be said for veteran leadership. I know I heard on a broadcast last year that Roy Williams was looking for veteran help when he got to Detroit because he didn't know how to best prepare for opponents. It's much more difficult to succeed in the NFL, ask Devin Thomas, and it takes a lot more than just relying on physical ability. In college, a lot of times, a guy is a man among boys and he can dominate just by showing up against say 70% of his competition. In the NFL, most guys can't just show up and be great, they need another player (preferably a great one) to teach them how to prepare for games.

That's my opinion.[/quote]

That said, it does beg the question: What exactly is the position coach doing that he's not preparing these guys?

Re: Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

Yeah I do think people overvalue the impact of "mentoring". A lot of vets have no use for showing the younger guys the ropes so they can basically take their jobs.

Good players are typically the way they are because they are self-motivated, and not led around on a leash like a lost puppy.

Sure you need veteran leadership on your team and I'm not underestimating the importance of that. But the idea that all veterans want to mentor the younger guys and is worth a roster spot because of that does get overplayed with the fans.

Kinda like the idea that any free agent is available for the vet min.

Re: Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

[quote=jdlea;565235]That said, it does beg the question: What exactly is the position coach doing that he's not preparing these guys?[/quote]

Exactly.

As far as veteran leadership for the locker room, that is something most definitely needed. I think that RW situation was a testament to crappy coaching up in Detroit. :frusty:

Re: Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

IMO the biggest impact vets can have on the younger guys is if they've been in the system for a long time they can be a big help in position meetings. The other thing vets can do, is teach young guys to watch film correctly. But I also feel like every team already has a few of those guys.

Re: Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;565236]Yeah I do think people overvalue the impact of "mentoring". A lot of vets have no use for showing the younger guys the ropes so they can basically take their jobs.

Good players are typically the way they are because they are self-motivated, and not led around on a leash like a lost puppy.

Sure you need veteran leadership on your team and I'm not underestimating the importance of that. But the idea that all veterans want to mentor the younger guys and is worth a roster spot because of that does get overplayed with the fans.

Kinda like the idea that any free agent is available for the vet min.[/quote]

I know it's a different sport, but in the NBA Playoffs I kept hearing about how Rashard Lewis came to the NBA right out of high school, fell to the 2nd round and was on the road to a short NBA career when Ray Allen showed up in Seattle and basically saved his career. They talked about how he found a whole new way to prepare and became a far better shooter thanks to Ray Allen, so there is something to be said for veteran leadership.

Re: Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;565238]Exactly.

As far as veteran leadership for the locker room, that is something most definitely needed. I think that RW situation was a testament to crappy coaching up in Detroit. :frusty:[/quote]

I think, though, that it may be a function of coaches just participating in the "scheduled" activities unless a guy asks him to stay after and help him. (All me guessing) I'm of the opinion that it takes a lot more than team meetings and practices to get a guy ready to contribute in the NFL. You need to be out there after hours, working your tail off to be great and I guess that may be something that isn't stressed by position coaches? :confused-

Re: Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

[quote=jdlea;565242]I think, though, that it may be a function of coaches just participating in the "scheduled" activities unless a guy asks him to stay after and help him. (All me guessing) I'm of the opinion that it takes a lot more than team meetings and practices to get a guy ready to contribute in the NFL. You need to be out there after hours, working your tail off to be great and I guess that may be something that isn't stressed by position coaches? :confused-[/quote]

I'd find it hard to believe there is a coach in the NFL that doesn't stress those types of things. At some point though the responsibility falls to the player to take the reins and do what he needs to do. Watching film, extra work in the weight room, whatever. The coaches can't hold the players' hands 24/7.

Re: Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

I think where learning under veterans comes into play it's not so much about them teaching rookies or younger players plays and techniques, it's more so teaching them what it takes to be successful in the league. Randle-El, Santonio Holmes, etc. talk a lot about how hard Hines Ward works and see that showed them what it takes to be a success.

Coming in as a rookie with an open mind and a willingness to learn is the biggest thing, but if you can model yourself-from a work ethic standpoint-after an established vet, that's where you can see the impact.

Another example is the Santana Moss/Malcolm Kelly situation. Kelly has said in many interviews how Moss has helped him deal with his lost rookie season because Moss essentially had the same thing. Moss missed most of his rookie season with a knee injury, press and fans wrote him off as a bust, he had to shake it off and emerge as a player to be reckoned with. Kelly now has a model to follow in his own locker room. Imagine if it was a T.O. or Chad Ochocinco? They wouldn't have that type of experience to share so Kelly may still have those questions and doubts that Moss helped him overcome.

Re: Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

I imagine a lot depends on the personality of the veteran and the rookie. Some vets probably don't have the time of day for guys that may or may not be there teammate or who is trying to take their or their buddy's job. Some rookies may not even approach the vets and just be trying to learn on their own by listening to the coaches.

On the other hand, if a the vet is a good guy who isn't feeling particularly threatened (or is a REALLY good guy and just wants what's best for the team) AND the rookie is busting his ass and being respectful, THEN the vet just may give him some advice on the field - the old "watch his knuckles" kinda advice. I bet most vets are to intent on their own jobs to do much more than that except in rare occasions.

Re: Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

This is a good question for which I have brought up and contemplated myself. I have come to believe it's both coaching and vetrans that get the job done. I keep telling myself that it's the position coach's job (as in Hixon) to teach/develope, but I think it's probably more his job to teach fundamentals for which I get blasted about how players should already have the fundamentals or they would not have made it to the pros. I believe this to be a false statement. A prime example would be Robert Hensons interview where he keeps stating the TE coach is teaching him fundamentals all the time which he did not get in college. I also see the older vets a lot of the time coaching the younger players on the side lines after a play went sour on their route running or how to shed the blocker or how to lose the defensive player.

So I have come to believe it's a two part system but I am still concerned with our WR coach and the lack of developement. If all the team brings in is lemons then you make lemon juice. It seems the team brings in players and they are cut come regular season and we have no one new. Last yr was a nice change but again who's job was it to get Thomas in shape and ready to play? Who's job was it to make sure he learned the plays and routes? ultimatly Thomas's but I would think the positions coach would have taken special interest in getting the player to learn the offense even if it meant quizing him everyday on plays.

Re: Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

Warren Sapp hit the nail on the head on this issue. This isn't just an NFL problem, it's everywhere.

[URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/06/21/brooks/index.html?eref=T1"]Derrick Brooks, Warren Sapp, Vince Young in Monday Morning QB - Peter King - SI.com[/URL]

From the article:
"I'll tell you the real reason,'' his friend [B][URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/3140"][COLOR=#0000ff]Warren Sapp[/COLOR][/URL][/B] said over the weekend. "Because it's not the same for the veterans anymore. The NFL doesn't need us. In this NFL, the old vets don't factor in. The kids don't listen to nobody. Nobody! My last year in Oakland, I'd try to talk to some of the kids.[B] [URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/7046"][COLOR=#0000ff]Tommy Kelly[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/5691"][COLOR=#0000ff]Terdell Sands[/COLOR][/URL].[/B] But they had no interest. I thought the ghosts in that building were so valuable, but none of the young guys cared. Once in a while, one of the old legends would come in the building, or make a trip. [B]Jack Tatum[/B] would be around, and I'd say, 'You know who that dude is? You know how he played?' And the kids would be like, 'Nah, I don't care.'
"The game's different now. Look at [B][URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/7752"][COLOR=#0000ff]Vince Young[/COLOR][/URL][/B]. Why wouldn't he listen to [B][URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/3115"][COLOR=#0000ff]Kerry Collins[/COLOR][/URL][/B]? I'm sure Vince thinks, 'Nobody's been through what I'm going through. Nobody's been through my kind of pressure.' Are you kidding me! Kerry Collins, fifth pick in the draft, has all the ups and downs, gets benched, makes those racist comments, has the alcohol problems, moves from team to team, comes back, has success ... Vince Young should suck up all the knowledge Kerry Collins has to offer! There's no better role model for him.''

Re: Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;565299]Warren Sapp hit the nail on the head on this issue. This isn't just an NFL problem, it's everywhere.

[URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/06/21/brooks/index.html?eref=T1"]Derrick Brooks, Warren Sapp, Vince Young in Monday Morning QB - Peter King - SI.com[/URL]

From the article:
"I'll tell you the real reason,'' his friend [B][URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/3140"][COLOR=#0000ff]Warren Sapp[/COLOR][/URL][/B] said over the weekend. "Because it's not the same for the veterans anymore. The NFL doesn't need us. In this NFL, the old vets don't factor in. The kids don't listen to nobody. Nobody! My last year in Oakland, I'd try to talk to some of the kids.[B] [URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/7046"][COLOR=#0000ff]Tommy Kelly[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/5691"][COLOR=#0000ff]Terdell Sands[/COLOR][/URL].[/B] But they had no interest. I thought the ghosts in that building were so valuable, but none of the young guys cared. Once in a while, one of the old legends would come in the building, or make a trip. [B]Jack Tatum[/B] would be around, and I'd say, 'You know who that dude is? You know how he played?' And the kids would be like, 'Nah, I don't care.'
"The game's different now. Look at [B][URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/7752"][COLOR=#0000ff]Vince Young[/COLOR][/URL][/B]. Why wouldn't he listen to [B][URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/3115"][COLOR=#0000ff]Kerry Collins[/COLOR][/URL][/B]? I'm sure Vince thinks, 'Nobody's been through what I'm going through. Nobody's been through my kind of pressure.' Are you kidding me! Kerry Collins, fifth pick in the draft, has all the ups and downs, gets benched, makes those racist comments, has the alcohol problems, moves from team to team, comes back, has success ... Vince Young should suck up all the knowledge Kerry Collins has to offer! There's no better role model for him.''[/quote]

Saap is right on the money. Young should be soaking up all the knowledge he can from Collins. Instead he cries to the media about wanting his job back and if he can't get it then trade me. Excuse my language... but what a ****ing baby!!!! Does Vince Young realize that he has ZERO value in the NFL as a starter??? His best chance to become a starter again is w/ Tenn. He needs to suck up his pride, live at the Tenn facility and learn how to play QB instead of talking about it. He's got the poster boy for someone that's turned around an NFL career sitting right in front of him and he doesn't try to take advantage of it. What a dumb ass.

Re: Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;565305]Saap is right on the money. Young should be soaking up all the knowledge he can from Collins. Instead he cries to the media about wanting his job back and if he can't get it then trade me. Excuse my language... but what a ****ing baby!!!! Does Vince Young realize that he has ZERO value in the NFL as a starter??? His best chance to become a starter again is w/ Tenn. He needs to suck up his pride, live at the Tenn facility and learn how to play QB instead of talking about it. He's got the poster boy for someone that's turned around an NFL career sitting right in front of him and he doesn't try to take advantage of it. What a dumb ass.[/quote]

Has Collins made himself available to Young? I think back to Tony Banks, I think it was him, who I remember once said one of his biggest regrets was the way he acted and treated other quarterbacks on the team, especially younger guys. He said he purposely distanced himself because he was so possessive about his job. But that he watched the way Dilfer handled himself on the team and wishes he had been more like him. Willing to teach and be a part of the team.

But anyway, nice thread. I think it's really about, as Paintrain mentioned, what veterans can teach rookies and younger players about life as an NFL player not so much how to play the game. I think veterans can definitely teach younger players a lot but they have to be willing, and the younger guys have to be willing to learn.