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Gmanc711 10-14-2009 11:09 PM

Tony McGee On Redskins vs Panthers
 
Hello Everyone,

Well I really do not have a whole lot to say about the game itself. I knew Carolina would be a better team than Tampa Bay. I thought Steve Smith had a big impact for Carolina. While the offensive play was pretty awful, I still think the defense needs to stand up at the end of the game. Beyond that, it was another bad offensive showing. You're starting to see a team that is in disaray, I'm starting to feel a division in the locker room. Right now, I know Zorn has some things he needs to work on, but he doesnt have alot to work with in terms of talent right now, specifically across the offensive line. In addition, the biggest thing for me is the lack of leaders on this team... I have yet to see anyone really step up and take a leadership role, and that has more of a negative effect on a team then you'd think.

Overall, I think the biggest problem with the Washington Redskins is the lack of a football mind in the front office. Ever since Casserly left as the Redskins GM, it has started to go downhill. The Redskins don't need a fan, they dont need a billionare owner, they need a good football mind to come build this team. They did not spend enough time looking at the offensive line, they overpay for other guys. I think Haynesworth has been playing well so far this year, but I have yet to see him really take over a game. I guess a good example, is look what Kris Jenkins is doing for the Jets at half the cost...why can't the Redskins sign guys like that? Why does it always have to be the biggest free agent out there? They resign a guy in DeAngelo Hall who has made plays this year, but for all his talking, he can't get run over on 3rd down by a quarterback after making all that money. The Redskins do not spend time looking at the big picture, bottom line, they need a football guy in here. Until that day, I dont know that anything changes.

In terms of Jim Zorns job security, if the Redskins lose this week, he's gone at the bye week. If the Skins' beat Kansas City and Philadelphia I think he might survive through the season, but it will be determined. Either way, I dont think it makes a big difference what happens mid year, because they'll just replace him with a stop-gap anyways to go through the remainder of the season. I stated earlier, he has alot to work on, but I have a very hard time putitng this on Jim Zorn. He was not qualifyed for the job when he got it, he had not been anything more than a quarterbacks coach, and he has inferior talent offensivley. In addition, there has been zero consistency on this team. When you look at players on offense and on defense only two guys come to mind as consistent football players. London Fletcher is a no brainer, he is by far the best player week in and week out on this team. I also think Jason Campbell, while he has not played at an all pro level, has played a pretty consistant season thusfar.

Looking at the situation with Chad Reinhardt, and being benched after one week...he got blown up bad in Detroit, the same way Stephon Heyer got blown up on the saftey last week against Carolina. I honestly, in all my years watching football have never seen people blown up the way those two were right off the line. This all goes back to personell decisions and the lack of getting a football mind in the front office. They don't have guys who know what they're doing, they have a scouting department that they do not trust, and they wind up with players who are not very good. Chad Reinhardt wouldnt was a 3rd round pick who was not even active until this season, and he wouldnt have been at all if Randy Thomas was not hurt.

Taking a look at Carlos Rogers comment about ownership, I think he knew exactly what he was doing when he made that comment. I would be surpised if that doesnt end up leading to him playing elsewhere. I think he has been the better of the two starting cornerbacks, but with the way that ownership operates, I think Carlos Rogers will be playing elsewhere next season...not that I do not agree with him.

Overall, its a frustrating time for everyone associated with the organization. I think it might get worse before it ends up getting any better, but only time will tell how much worse this season might get.

Thanks all!

SmootSmack 10-15-2009 12:43 AM

Re: Tony McGee On Redskins vs Panthers
 
[quote=Gmanc711;608685]Hello Everyone,

Well I really do not have a whole lot to say about the game itself. I knew Carolina would be a better team than Tampa Bay. I thought Steve Smith had a big impact for Carolina. While the offensive play was pretty awful, I still think the defense needs to stand up at the end of the game. Beyond that, it was another bad offensive showing. You're starting to see a team that is in disaray, I'm starting to feel a division in the locker room. Right now, I know Zorn has some things he needs to work on, but he doesnt have alot to work with in terms of talent right now, specifically across the offensive line. In addition, the biggest thing for me is the lack of leaders on this team... I have yet to see anyone really step up and take a leadership role, and that has more of a negative effect on a team then you'd think.[/quote]

Difficult to argue with these points.

[quote]Overall, I think the biggest problem with the Washington Redskins is the lack of a football mind in the front office. Ever since Casserly left as the Redskins GM, it has started to go downhill. The Redskins don't need a fan, they dont need a billionare owner, they need a good football mind to come build this team. They did not spend enough time looking at the offensive line, they overpay for other guys. I think Haynesworth has been playing well so far this year, but I have yet to see him really take over a game. I guess a good example, is look what Kris Jenkins is doing for the Jets at half the cost...why can't the Redskins sign guys like that? Why does it always have to be the biggest free agent out there? They resign a guy in DeAngelo Hall who has made plays this year, but for all his talking, he can't get run over on 3rd down by a quarterback after making all that money. The Redskins do not spend time looking at the big picture, bottom line, they need a football guy in here. Until that day, I dont know that anything changes.[/quote]

We spent a lot of time the past two years talking about Kris Jenkins. I don't remember what we all thought, but don't we sign guys like that? DId we break the bank for Griffin or Fletcher?

[quote]In terms of Jim Zorns job security, if the Redskins lose this week, he's gone at the bye week. If the Skins' beat Kansas City and Philadelphia I think he might survive through the season, but it will be determined. Either way, I dont think it makes a big difference what happens mid year, because they'll just replace him with a stop-gap anyways to go through the remainder of the season. I stated earlier, he has alot to work on, but I have a very hard time putitng this on Jim Zorn. He was not qualifyed for the job when he got it, he had not been anything more than a quarterbacks coach, and he has inferior talent offensivley. In addition, there has been zero consistency on this team. When you look at players on offense and on defense only two guys come to mind as consistent football players. London Fletcher is a no brainer, he is by far the best player week in and week out on this team. I also think Jason Campbell, while he has not played at an all pro level, has played a pretty consistant season thus far.[/quote]

I don't agree that Campbell has been consistent. I also don't know that Zorn should be absolved of any blame just because he's only been a QB coach up to this point

[quote]Looking at the situation with Chad Reinhardt, and being benched after one week...he got blown up bad in Detroit, the same way Stephon Heyer got blown up on the saftey last week against Carolina. I honestly, in all my years watching football have never seen people blown up the way those two were right off the line. This all goes back to personell decisions and the lack of getting a football mind in the front office. They don't have guys who know what they're doing, they have a scouting department that they do not trust, and they wind up with players who are not very good. Chad Reinhardt wouldnt was a 3rd round pick who was not even active until this season, and he wouldnt have been at all if Randy Thomas was not hurt.[/quote]

The scouting department comment is really interesting. I think the scouting department on any team is the most under-recognized. They're the ones that do all the the leg work. I've often thought that Vinny and the other execs can only do so much, they can only really work with the info the scouts present to them. Still, it seems like what Tony is saying here is the scouts' recommendations and the team's actions are not in line the majority of the time. Interesting comment

I still wish people would use a more specific example than "a football mind" though

[quote]Taking a look at Carlos Rogers comment about ownership, I think he knew exactly what he was doing when he made that comment. I would be surpised if that doesnt end up leading to him playing elsewhere. I think he has been the better of the two starting cornerbacks, but with the way that ownership operates, I think Carlos Rogers will be playing elsewhere next season...not that I do not agree with him.

Overall, its a frustrating time for everyone associated with the organization. I think it might get worse before it ends up getting any better, but only time will tell how much worse this season might get.

Thanks all![/quote]

We sort of need it to get worse

Gmanc711 10-15-2009 08:21 AM

Re: Tony McGee On Redskins vs Panthers
 
" We spent a lot of time the past two years talking about Kris Jenkins. I don't remember what we all thought, but don't we sign guys like that? DId we break the bank for Griffin or Fletcher? "

- No, we did not. However, I also think things ran a little differently in the front office when Joe Gibbs was here.

I agree about the scouting department thing as well.... I've been doing these chats for almost four years (scary) with Tony, and I thought talking to him this week was one of the most interesting chats I've ever had. He didnt really want to talk much about the game (not that many of my questions were related to it with everything giong on)...but its the first time that he just sounded like an ex-football player that was really unhappy about where this organization is. I also got the impression that the locker room is really starting to be divided and a very unpleasent place.

KI Skins Fan 10-15-2009 09:18 AM

Re: Tony McGee On Redskins vs Panthers
 
Comments about the decision makers ignoring the input of the scouting department have caught my attention twice this week. First, Jimmy Johnson mentioned it during his rant on the Fox Pregame Show and now Tony brings it up again. As a fan, I find this to be very disturbing. The idea that we have good scouts whose work is sometimes ignored says to me that we don't have a prayer of putting together a championship roster as things stand. Also, this information is coming from somebody in the Redskins organization. Who is he?

Is there anyone here who can provide more specific information on this issue? I'd like to know more, such as:

Who are our well-regarded scouts?

What are the details of some of the instances when their work was ignored or discounted?

Is there clear evidence to support the oft-stated claim that Dan Snyder is playing a private fantasy football game with the Redskins roster?

Did Vinny hire good people only to ignore their input or were Vinny and the scouts overridden by Dan Snyder in some instances?

Will the bad news coming out of this dysfunctional organization ever end?

SmootSmack 10-15-2009 12:09 PM

Re: Tony McGee On Redskins vs Panthers
 
[quote=KI Skins Fan;608818]Comments about the decision makers ignoring the input of the scouting department have caught my attention twice this week. First, Jimmy Johnson mentioned it during his rant on the Fox Pregame Show and now Tony brings it up again. As a fan, I find this to be very disturbing. The idea that we have good scouts whose work is sometimes ignored says to me that we don't have a prayer of putting together a championship roster as things stand. Also, this information is coming from somebody in the Redskins organization. Who is he?

Is there anyone here who can provide more specific information on this issue? I'd like to know more, such as:

Who are our well-regarded scouts?

What are the details of some of the instances when their work was ignored or discounted?

Is there clear evidence to support the oft-stated claim that Dan Snyder is playing a private fantasy football game with the Redskins roster?

Did Vinny hire good people only to ignore their input or were Vinny and the scouts overridden by Dan Snyder in some instances?

Will the bad news coming out of this dysfunctional organization ever end?[/quote]

Good questions that I don't have the answers to. I know how the process is supposed to work inside Redskins Park, but don't know how it's actually working right now.

I do know that when Cerrato first joined the Redskins he "streamlined" the scouting department and scouting process based on some method that was apparently utilized in San Fran. It sort of stayed that way until Gibbs came along and ramped up the scouting department both with personnel and the experience of the personnel (which was odd since we were still trading away picks). But then when Cerrato took total control of the football operations last year he streamlined the process again, getting rid of several scouts, and bumping up some people without necessarily finding replacements at the lower levels for those people.

I know some have argued that what Cerrato did with the scouting department is the same thing he did with Zorn, put people in positions that they may not have been ready for. Case in point, he put Morocco Brown in charge of pro personnel which was fine, but then instead of making a top regional scout Brown's right hand guy he promoted basically a paper pusher to that role.

We're working on getting a former NFL scout (not with the Redskins) to chat with us in the next few weeks. If we can, I'm sure he can offer some insights into the scouting process.

calia 10-15-2009 12:53 PM

Re: Tony McGee On Redskins vs Panthers
 
I think in hearing all of this I am reminded of a point made in one of the other threads but that applies with equal force here. Assume that Snyder and Cerrato continue indefinitely to run this team as they have in the past: Will that affect your loyalty to the Redskins?

I struggle with this question. I grew up a fan (and have been watching since about 1974), but what the management (or lack thereof) has done here has taken my beloved team and made it fundamentally something else -- a dysfunctional organization that has at its core some deep flaws that even great coaching (not yet seen) and inspired play from individual players (seen occasionally) cannot cure. And I don't see much chance of that changing short of the team languishing in the cellar for so long that game attendance and other revenue sources dry up -- the Boswell piece in today's Washington Post really makes this point with clarity.

Having said all of that, it seems possible (albeit unlikely if history is a lesson) that Snyder will realize what he has done to the franchise and try to take steps to right the ship. I do believe he desparately wants to win -- like we (fans) all do. He just doesn't know how. Once he admits that and begins to give decision-making authority to those that do (if ever), we can get back to greatness. Absent some signs of this shift in the organization in the relatively near future, my struggle with the loyalty question will not get easier.

KI Skins Fan 10-15-2009 02:45 PM

Re: Tony McGee On Redskins vs Panthers
 
[quote=SmootSmack;608897]Good questions that I don't have the answers to. I know how the process is supposed to work inside Redskins Park, but don't know how it's actually working right now.

I do know that when Cerrato first joined the Redskins he "streamlined" the scouting department and scouting process based on some method that was apparently utilized in San Fran. It sort of stayed that way until Gibbs came along and ramped up the scouting department both with personnel and the experience of the personnel (which was odd since we were still trading away picks). But then when Cerrato took total control of the football operations last year he streamlined the process again, getting rid of several scouts, and bumping up some people without necessarily finding replacements at the lower levels for those people.

I know some have argued that what Cerrato did with the scouting department is the same thing he did with Zorn, put people in positions that they may not have been ready for. Case in point, he put Morocco Brown in charge of pro personnel which was fine, but then instead of making a top regional scout Brown's right hand guy he promoted basically a paper pusher to that role.

We're working on getting a former NFL scout (not with the Redskins) to chat with us in the next few weeks. If we can, I'm sure he can offer some insights into the scouting process.[/quote]

Thanks for responding.

I really didn't expect anyone to be able to fully answer my questions. I thought that maybe a few people might each have a revealing snippet of information that touched on these matters.

Apparently, somebody at Redskins Park has mentioned to other football people that the scouts are being ignored and I just can't comprehend why an NFL executive would do such a thing.

But what do I know? It could happen all the time all over the league - nothing more than an honest difference of opinion. Of course, when a team is struggling everything is magnified.

It would be interesting to chat with a former NFL scout and hear some of his war stories.


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