Offense or Defense?
 

After watching last nights game vs ATL, I was thinking to myself... Is it better to have a top ranked Offense than it is a top ranked Defense?? It's a legitimate question in today's NFL. Look at WSH for an example.. Num 30th ranked Offense and a top 6 Defense yet 2-5 is this teams record... For my Saints, you have the top ranked offense in the league, but just an avg D.. 7-0 is our record.. So I would take the Offense over Defense any day..

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=Wildcat;620228]After watching last nights game vs ATL, I was thinking to myself... Is it better to have a top ranked Offense than it is a top ranked Defense?? It's a legitimate question in today's NFL. Look at WSH for an example.. Num 30th ranked Offense and a top 6 Defense yet 2-5 is this teams record... [B][U]For my Saints[/U][/B], you have the top ranked offense in the league, but just an avg D.. 7-0 is our record.. So I would take the Offense over Defense any day..[/quote]

could sworn your logo was eagles about 10 minutes ago not saints, and you need both, like the saints their d isn't the worst, you can't just have d and no o you have to have both like bmore last year their d was sick but their o wasn't that bad

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

While I'm too lazy to look them up I think the Saints stats on d are pretty legit dude...Williams has that unit playing extremely well even w/ major talent out of the starting line-up cuz of injury (Ellis and Fujita).

...so yeah both sides of the ball must be quality but hasn't history proven that since forever?

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

Either. You just can't have one or the other ranked near the bottom of the league. If the Skins Offense was even a middle of the pack unit, their record would be much different. The Saints have had a high-powered Offense for years. They're legit this year, because their D is finally respectable (and opportunistic).

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

In today's NFL, a great O will beat a great D most of the time. I would rather have a good offense than a defense. Nearly every year the rule changes benefit the offensive side of the ball. This isn't 2 yards and a cloud of dust anymore. This is a game where you need to be consistently scoring 21+ points or you have little to no shot to being a good team.

If I were building a team. Id build my D to be opportunistic and turnover happy, even if that costs big plays -- because Id spend a lot more time on me O.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=44Deezel;620238]Either. You just can't have one or the other ranked near the bottom of the league. If the Skins Offense was even a middle of the pack unit, their record would be much different. The Saints have had a high-powered Offense for years. [B]They're legit this year, because their D is finally respectable (and opportunistic[/B]).[/quote]And even better, they helped me in a come from behind fantasy win last night :woot:

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=Daseal;620240]In today's NFL, a great O will beat a great D most of the time. I would rather have a good offense than a defense. Nearly every year the rule changes benefit the offensive side of the ball. This isn't 2 yards and a cloud of dust anymore. This is a game where you need to be consistently scoring 21+ points or you have little to no shot to being a good team.

If I were building a team. Id build my D to be opportunistic and turnover happy, even if that costs big plays -- because Id spend a lot more time on me O.[/quote]How'd that Giants / Pats Superbowl work out? How about Steelers / Cards? Just sayin'

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

@daseal, puppy kicker?

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

When my uncle coached Ohio State he had potent offenses coupled with solid defenses. THe Buckeye defenses he had were not tops in yardage allowed, but they always were #1 in turnover ratio in the Big Ten, which in my mind is just as effective as being #1 in yardage allowed. His defenses were more bend but don't break types, but they were also good with the ppg as well as turnovers. But to answer you, you need both. Think of the old Denver Nuggets in the 80's- early 90's. They scored 120 easy, but played no D and lost more than they won. The Saints D is solid with athletic DBs.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

@wildcat seriously wasn't your logo eagles now i guess it's like 40 minutes ago, pretty sure it was, when you sign back in tho let me know who your team is that week

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

A good defense will choke the life out of a good offense. Always has been, always will bee. See 2007 16-0 New England Patriots vs 10-6 New York Giants.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;620243]How'd that Giants / Pats Superbowl work out? How about Steelers / Cards? Just sayin'[/quote]



[quote=saden1;620256]A good defense will choke the life out of a good offense. Always has been, always will bee. See 2007 16-0 New England Patriots vs 10-6 New York Giants.[/quote]

Great posts.
A good defense and a good running game are more important than having a high flying offense. Come playoff time a running game and a defense that shut down other teams will win championships. Epecially when the weather gets bad in December/Jan in cities like Pittsburgh, Philly, NY, and Chicago.
Ask the most prolific passers of the past Dan Marino and Dan Fouts how many SB rings they have? None.
Even the great John Elway did not win one until Suberbowl MVP Terrell Davis showed up. Peyton Manning finally won one on a rather pedestrian 247 yards passing one td and one interception. But Dominic Rhodes rushed 113 yards and J. Addai added 77 yards. It is better to be balanced.
It is easy to get seduced by a high flying offense, but good ol fashioned smash mouth football will win more times than not.
Ask Snyderato who rather draft WR's and TE rather then draft linemen.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

Well defense does when championships, but thats assuming that the Defense has a decent offense on the other hand. Us being 30th doesn't help. Look at the Ravens offense on their superbowl team, a veteran QB who knows what he's doing, a decent OL that could protect him, and a good running game. We have none of those.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

no way D all the way baby

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

Gotta score to win. Give me offense all day every day.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

What does the Giants win over the Patriots prove? The Patriots had a higher ranked defense than the Giants in 2007. While that stat is a tad misleading because of the degree to which their offense dominated time of possession, that game was not a triumph of defense over offense so much as health over injury, with a little bit of luck thrown in (helmet catch anyone?). How about mentioning the 2006 Colts who had the worst run defense of all time? The 04-09 Skins who have been largely dominant on defense and haven't won a thing. And the 09 Cardinals? Give me a break, they were a tremendous underdog who made it all the way to the Superbowl and almost won by outscoring people all through the playoffs. That proves that offense isn't important?

If we are looking at Superbowl winners you will be hard pressed to find a recent winner that wasn't extremely competitive on both sides of the ball. With a few historical anomalies (the 00 Ravens come to mind) that has always been the case. The Steelers had one of the great defenses last year, but they also have a top five quarterback in his prime, a solid line, and excellent skill position players. Their offense underachieved for a large part of last season due to injury, but they got it together for the playoffs and were able to move the ball. They also won the championship on a last minute drive after their defense failed in the clutch. The old adage defense wins championships ignores the degree to which things like rule changes favoring the offense have changed the complexion of the game.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that this question is superfluous. You gotta have both.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

The popular sports saying "Defense wins champonships" is correct. Slingin Sammy's post are perfect examples. Of course there will be exceptions every now and then (Greatest show on turf Rams early 2000s), but generally you want a Defense over Offense any day.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

If your objective is to win championships, it's imperative you be among the best in both areas. One without the other is going to consistently lead to uneven results.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

Don't underestimate special teams...seriously

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=Daseal;620240][B]In today's NFL, a great O will beat a great D most of the time.[/B] I would rather have a good offense than a defense. Nearly every year the rule changes benefit the offensive side of the ball. This isn't 2 yards and a cloud of dust anymore. This is a game where you need to be consistently scoring 21+ points or you have little to no shot to being a good team.

If I were building a team. Id build my D to be opportunistic and turnover happy, even if that costs big plays -- because Id spend a lot more time on me O.[/quote]

Really? Care to toss out some examples?

Maybe you can apply that to the regular season, maybe, but playoff football is always about defense and the running game.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;620297]Don't underestimate special teams...seriously[/quote]The problem with only having a great D and a poor O is that a special teams gaffe can lose a game. The margin for error is so thin when you have a poor offense only capable of putting up 14 points, which magnifies any mistakes on special teams. The botched punt which lost the game at Carolina is a case in point.

BTW, don't get too high on our D. They are just as liable during this rotten stretch. They couldn't stop the Giants from converting 3rd and long all day, and they let a rookie QB drive the ball up and down the field in Detroit for 275 first half yards. Despite a markedly improved pass rush, we're getting zero plays from the secondary, aside from an occasional INT by Hall. Where is Laron Landry??? Where is Carlos Rogers??? As far as I'm concerned, those two have been MIA all year.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=SouperMeister;620317]The problem with only having a great D and a poor O is that a special teams gaffe can lose a game. The margin for error is so thin when you have a poor offense only capable of putting up 14 points, which magnifies any mistakes on special teams. The botched punt which lost the game at Carolina is a case in point.

BTW, don't get too high on our D. They are just as liable during this rotten stretch. They couldn't stop the Giants from converting 3rd and long all day, and they let a rookie QB drive the ball up and down the field in Detroit for 275 first half yards. Despite a markedly improved pass rush, we're getting zero plays from the secondary, aside from an occasional INT by Hall. Where is Laron Landry??? Where is Carlos Rogers??? As far as I'm concerned, those two have been MIA all year.[/quote]

I think our D is built to be the stronger of the two units but not to carry a team to victory like the Ravens did in previous years (not this year, they have a helluva offense), the Titans last year, and Bears during the season they made it to the SB.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;620316]Really? Care to toss out some examples?

Maybe you can apply that to the regular season, maybe, but playoff football is always about defense and the running game.[/quote]

Colts over the Bears, Bears were the best defense that year and the Colts were one of the worst. The Panthers had a better defense than the 03 Patriots, with that crushing front four. When was the last time a team won the Superbowl without a strong passing attack?

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;620319]I think our D is built to be the stronger of the two units but not to carry a team to victory [B]like the Ravens did in previous years (not this year, they have a helluva offense[/B]), the Titans last year, and Bears during the season they made it to the SB.[/quote]And what did the Ravens do on offense? They took stock of their QB's skill set, and brought in the Cam Cameron/Al Saunders system to fit those skills. Flacco is going to be a great QB in that system for many years.

I really thought Campbell would have been a great fit had we given him one more year in the Saunders system. I questioned his ability to play the short, passing on rhythm WCO the day we hired Zorn - it's just not a good fit.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=Wildcat;620228]After watching last nights game vs ATL, I was thinking to myself... Is it better to have a top ranked Offense than it is a top ranked Defense?? It's a legitimate question in today's NFL. Look at WSH for an example.. Num 30th ranked Offense and a top 6 Defense yet 2-5 is this teams record... For my Saints, you have the top ranked offense in the league, but just an avg D.. 7-0 is our record.. So I would take the Offense over Defense any day..[/quote]

Only when that top ranked defense can get key stops and force turn overs.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=SouperMeister;620325]And what did the Ravens do on offense? They took stock of their QB's skill set, and brought in the Cam Cameron/Al Saunders system to fit those skills. Flacco is going to be a great QB in that system for many years.

I really thought Campbell would have been a great fit had we given him one more year in the Saunders system. I questioned his ability to play the short, passing on rhythm WCO the day we hired Zorn - it's just not a good fit.[/quote]

Not to mention the fact that the Ravens did a good job scouting and got themselves a LT in the supplemental draft (Gaither), picked up a good QB, and shored up that line with Oher.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=djnemo65;620320]Colts over the Bears, Bears were the best defense that year and the Colts were one of the worst. The Panthers had a better defense than the 03 Patriots, with that crushing front four. When was the last time a team won the Superbowl without a strong passing attack?[/quote]

Yeah but how was that Colts D during that playoff run?

Ravens won with a crap passing attack. The Giants beat the Pats without an overly strong passing game.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;620329]Yeah but how was that Colts D during that playoff run?

Ravens won with a crap passing attack. The Giants beat the Pats without an overly strong passing game.[/quote]Ravens are really the only example I can think of - they had a terrible offense, but 7 -10 points was usually enough for them to win, especially in the playoffs. The Giants had weopons in their passing game - clearly Plaxico Burress was a matchup problem that freed up some of the younger guys to make plays - Steve Smith, Kevin Boss, and David Tyree all made impact plays in the passing game that day. The Pats and the Giants were strong on both sides of the ball that year. The Ravens are the only Super Bowl champion that was terrible on one side of the ball.

BTW, I'm in agreement that the Colts D was pretty damn strong on their playoff run (once Bob Sanders was healthy).

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;620297]Don't underestimate special teams...seriously[/quote]

I was so on my way to mention the special teams. Facetious minds think alike.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=Wildcat;620228]After watching last nights game vs ATL, I was thinking to myself... Is it better to have a top ranked Offense than it is a top ranked Defense?? It's a legitimate question in today's NFL. Look at WSH for an example.. Num 30th ranked Offense and a top 6 Defense yet 2-5 is this teams record... For my Saints, you have the top ranked offense in the league, but just an avg D.. 7-0 is our record.. So I would take the Offense over Defense any day..[/quote]

I think it all depends on how the HC sets up his team, but in the end If you don't have more points on the board then your opponent you lose. If you have a great Defense then you atleast have to have an Offense that can put a few points on the board, atleast more then 21 points.

If you have the top scoring offense then utilize that and make sure you scoring on every drive. Try to get the ball first in order to make the other team play catch up.

To me either one will work. No different the people saying my look at the Defense they are getting tired out there.....Hello, there's an Offense out there too, you can't tell me that an offense on the field too long does not get tired also.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

I think usually when you have one unit (offense/defense) that gets all the attention and recognition ,then the other unit gets overlooked and underrated.

A great example of that was the 49ers of the 80's. The offense was considered an all-time great, but the defense was also great in it's own right. That defense was often overlooked, even though they had one of the greatest safeties in Ronnie Lott.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=Wildcat;620228]After watching last nights game vs ATL, I was thinking to myself... Is it better to have a top ranked Offense than it is a top ranked Defense?? It's a legitimate question in today's NFL. Look at WSH for an example.. Num 30th ranked Offense and a top 6 Defense yet 2-5 is this teams record... For my Saints, you have the top ranked offense in the league, but just an avg D.. 7-0 is our record.. So I would take the Offense over Defense any day..[/quote]

As a Saints fan you should know that with still over half the season to play alot can happen. I'd hide a little longer in my hole until your 100% sure they will make the playoffs. Every year its seems the Saints start strong then Fail. I take your thread as a way for you to prop up your teams success at our expence. I guess there are no NO sites for you guys to have your little circle thing going. Do you also visit Browns and TB sites.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

Well just look at the results. Which is better? You have the answer right there in front of you, 2-5 soon to be a # 1 draft pick.

I love a strong defense and a power running game but this is the modern NFL. You need to have a half-way decent throwing game or you'll be just be a grab ass garbage team.

You can try to be old school and smother another team's offense but that doesn't fly when you're playing NE, IND, or now NO.

You can argue about an offense all day long. The Redskins have one without a backbone. Look at the results.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;620329]Yeah but how was that Colts D during that playoff run?

Ravens won with a crap passing attack. The Giants beat the Pats without an overly strong passing game.[/quote]

Sanders helped the Colts stabilize the run defense in the playoffs sure, but you asked for a recent example of a great offense beating a great defense and the 2006 Superbowl counts as one. And btw, the Colts defense ranked 12th out of 12 teams in the playoffs that year, and were up on the 11th team by 40 yards per game. They set the bar pretty low during the season by being the worst run defense in history, but people seem to remember Bob Sanders coming back and things completely changing, when in fact they just went from worst ever to not worst ever.

And Eli Manning had a near 100 QB rating in the 07 playoffs. They passed very effectively during their run.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

I believe that you need a good offense (not great mind you) to win the Super Bowl but at the same time the best teams win with defenses capable of shutting down high powered attacks. The thing though that really irks me is all the talk about needing an elite Wide Reciever to win games. Yes they help but they don't exactly have a track record of winning championships.

[URL="http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/huddle_up/posts/80521-against-the-grain-disproving-wide-receiver-myths"]Against The Grain: Disproving wide receiver myths | FanNation[/URL]
[quote][B][I]4. Great receivers win Super Bowls. [/I][/B]

That might be true for quarterbacks, but not receivers. Amongst active players, the only two sure-fire Hall of Fame receivers -- [B]Randy Moss[/B] and [B]Terrell Owens[/B] -- have zero Super Bowl rings. A few borderline-to-probable Canton guys have won Super Bowls -- [B]Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Hines Ward[/B] -- but their teams probably could have captured titles without them. The only virutal sure-thing Hall of Fame receiver to win a Super Bowl this decade was the Colts' [B]Marvin Harrison[/B] in 2007. [/quote]

I think part of the reason we're struggling with a top notch defense is due to the fact that we're trying to be a 60-40 passing team when all the while we can't really do anything well on offense. If we had a running game that could average 20 carries and a 4 ypc then we would be much better off. Running games are usually the best compliment to top notch defenses. However without one you need to find yourself a guy like Big Ben and doing that is easier said then done.

However getting back to Super Bowl winners, we've seen the majority of Super Bowl Champs win mainly with Defense over the past decade [I](I'm pretty sure if we look back further we'll find more teams who won with defense, but right now I believe the converstation is concerning winning in todays NFL)[/I]. Among these teams are the Giants, Buc's, Patriots, Steelers, and Ravens who have 8 Super Bowl wins combined since 2000. The only teams to win with offense as the strongest unit were the Colts and Rams. Both of which had defenses that stepped up during the playoffs. Especially the Colts. Ironically the Patriots only Super Bowl lost came when the teams main strength was their offense and they lost to a team that relied primarily on their defense to win games.

Also as a foot note, the main reason the Rams got to the Super Bowl in 2000 was because their defense was able to hold the Buc's to 6 points. Granted the Buc's weren't a very good offensive team however very rarely will you win a game, let alone a conference championship, scoring 11 points. Ironically our top notch offense was knocked out of the playoffs in 1999/2000 by the Buc's who beat us mainly with defense.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

A good O and a very well coached D.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=Chico23231;620276]The popular sports saying "Defense wins champonships" is correct. Slingin Sammy's post are perfect examples. Of course there will be exceptions every now and then (Greatest show on turf Rams early 2000s), but generally you want a Defense over Offense any day.[/quote]

"The greatest show on turf" had a very good defense.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=RedskinMike;620576]"The greatest show on turf" had a very good defense.[/quote]

Like I pointed out. No way they get to the Super Bowl without their defense that year as it's almost impossible to win in the playoffs scoring 11 points (the only team to score less most recently in a conference championship and win were the Buffalo Bills in 1991/92 with a 10-7 win over the Broncos). In fact they got knocked out of the first round of the playoffs the next year by the Saints, after barely making the playoffs, mainly because they couldn't play any defense. They only got back when they brought in Lovie Smith who fixed the D and even then they lost to the Patriots who came in with one of the best defensive gameplans in recent memory, holding the Rams top ranked offense to 17 points (A Redskin high in 2009).

Defense is the way to go when winning championships, however unless you have the Ravens Defense from 2001 you won't go anywhere without an offense to supplement your D. If you want to put a number on it I'd say you at [B]least [/B]need an offense ranked 15th overall in points scored this is of course with a top 5 defense. If you were to win with offense then I'd say a top 5 offense with a defense playing well enough in the playoffs to be ranked top 10 (a la the Colts). Keep in mind the numbers in this last paragraph are arbitrary and not based on any research.

[quote=SmootSmack;620297]Don't underestimate special teams...seriously[/quote]

Good point. Part of the reason the Ravens were able to generate any sort of offense in 2000/2001 was because of the field position they were provided by Jermaine Lewis off punt and kick returns. Having that dominant defense helped in terms of field position but Jermaine Lewis was a huge lifeline for that team.

[quote=Trample the Elderly;620417]Well just look at the results. Which is better? You have the answer right there in front of you, 2-5 soon to be a # 1 draft pick.

[/quote]

Unfortunately we're not the only team taking in a handful of suck this year. Right now we're picking around 8th.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

If i had to pick id say i would rather have a top ranked Offense with the defense being on the other end of the scale. If you had the 1st ranked scoring O and the last ranked D you would still be in position to win games, i couldnt see it happening the other way around.

Re: Offense or Defense?
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;620417]Well just look at the results. Which is better? [B][I][U]You have the answer right there in front of you[/U][/I][/B], 2-5 soon to be a # 1 draft pick.

I love a strong defense and a power running game but this is the modern NFL. You need to have a half-way decent throwing game or you'll be just be a grab ass garbage team.

You can try to be old school and smother another team's offense but that doesn't fly when you're playing NE, IND, or now NO.

You can argue about an offense all day long. The Redskins have one without a backbone. Look at the results.[/quote]

a great d will only get you so far you HAVE to have a decnt o and be able to put points on the board, pthe wise you will lose to winless teams