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-   -   Can you change? (http://www.thewarpath.net/debating-with-the-enemy/37218-can-you-change.html)

CRedskinsRule 07-03-2010 10:47 AM

Can you change?
 
This is not so much a political dialogue as a philosophical question. My question is this: What would make you change your political ideas. For the most part we all know the basic political fundamentals that everyone else here holds. Saden loves Lord Obama, TTE has his shelter ready, JTF holds all that is republican as pure evil, etc. I grew up solidly Republican, no real doubts in my mind. And all the discussions here basically involving dialogue of some sort that covers the spectrum of views.

BUT what would it take for you to have a ground shift and turn away from your current bent. As an example, for me, after the Republicans won control of both houses and the presidency, I expected to see fiscal restraint, but instead just saw the pork go elsewhere. I haven't really believed the Republican party since then, but I also haven't become a Democrat or really shifted my basic ideology from when I was a teen. I would say I am more understanding of the liberal view, but I could never see life from a "liberal" perspective.

So what could make someone, change their perspective completely? Could it even happen? Could Saden reject Obama and embrace Republican values? What would it take for TTE to become a strong supporter of Big Government? JTF, without sarcasm, what would have to happen for you to believe in Big Business.

Basically, can we change or at what point does deep fundamental change become nearly impossible?

joethiesmanfan 07-03-2010 10:58 AM

Re: Can you change?
 
[quote=CRedskinsRule;710535]This is not so much a political dialogue as a philosophical question. My question is this: What would make you change your political ideas. For the most part we all know the basic political fundamentals that everyone else here holds. Saden loves Lord Obama, TTE has his shelter ready, JTF holds all that is republican as pure evil, etc. I grew up solidly Republican, no real doubts in my mind. And all the discussions here basically involving dialogue of some sort that covers the spectrum of views.

BUT what would it take for you to have a ground shift and turn away from your current bent. As an example, for me, after the Republicans won control of both houses and the presidency, I expected to see fiscal restraint, but instead just saw the pork go elsewhere. I haven't really believed the Republican party since then, but I also haven't become a Democrat or really shifted my basic ideology from when I was a teen. I would say I am more understanding of the liberal view, but I could never see life from a "liberal" perspective.

So what could make someone, change their perspective completely? Could it even happen? Could Saden reject Obama and embrace Republican values? What would it take for TTE to become a strong supporter of Big Government? JTF, without sarcasm, what would have to happen for you to believe in Big Business.

Basically, can we change or at what point does deep fundamental change become nearly impossible?[/quote]

Well if the Republicans can make South Carolina a better place then
I would believe what they say. South Carolina is pure Republican through and through and have had the worst edcuation, economic , and health conditons of all 50 states for a long while now. When does the low taxes start to create jobs? We are 35 years and counting, waiting on these jobs. The philosophy sounds good but does not work. Bye bye Republicans, hello Tea Party. They would be easy to confuse and deride. LOL!!! Come on Rand, try to implement your radical philosophy so I can laugh.

saden1 07-03-2010 11:39 AM

Re: Can you change?
 
I have Republican values, I just don't like Republicans. I grew up in a household that voted for Tom Davis (R-VA-11) year-in-year out but I just don't see Republicans like him. To me the GOP has lost practicality altogether and sound policy ideas. They have these grand ideas about cutting spending and reducing the deficits all the while cutting taxes. I can never in good conscious support people with those policies. The only way I will ever vote Republican is if there is the kind of flip there was in the 60's or a shift to more practical policies on their part (i.e. support for direct lending to students by the gov instead of middlemen banks). Oh and of course if Lord Obama changes his party affiliation to GOP, I'm going GOP like BOB.


People who think simply having less government is a good public policy don't deserve to run the government.

Beemnseven 07-04-2010 08:02 AM

Re: Can you change?
 
I know I've changed my political viewpoints from when I was a teenager in high school. Back then I was against flag burning, against drug legalization, buy American-made products only, and pretty much pro-war whenever war broke out.

Today, I'm completely the opposite on all those issues. For me, I changed those viewpoints after spending more time studying the issue -- thinking about it deeper than I had before. Generally, my instinctive, knee-jerk type reactions are those that I later change my mind about.

I think it was Bertrand Russell who said, "the whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so sure of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubt."

mredskins 07-04-2010 08:26 AM

Re: Can you change?
 
I have seen folks switch and normally it is from Dem to Rep. I think the Dem party lends more to the younger generations where the GOP favors older generations.

Just my two cents.

budw38 07-04-2010 08:57 AM

Re: Can you change?
 
I do not have too much time at the moment . 1st , happy 4th to all of you . I have never donated money to either party , I just want both to do what is right and what benefits ..... 1) those who are productive , 2) those who NEED help , 3) for both parties to stop finger pointing and blaming each other all of the time . Happy 4th ladies and Gent's .

Schneed10 07-04-2010 10:14 AM

Re: Can you change?
 
A change in the tax bracket in which you're categorized. Get a big raise? You're more likely to see the republican point of view. Get laid off? You're more likely to see the democrats point of view. They say you never understand until you walk a mile in a man's shoes. If your financial situation in life changes, chances are you'll feel differently about a lot of things.

But for me, I consider myself an independent thinker. I will examine each situation independently, consider all viewpoints, and come up with my own conclusions. In this way, I don't consider myself either a democrat or republican; I'm a fan of whichever side has the right answer on a particular issue. This leads me to like republicans on some things, but democrats on others.

However the fundamental premises upon which I base my thinking mostly line up with the republican side (because I actually understand economics). Things like lower taxes, smaller government, pro business, etc. I don't see those things ever changing. However, if the Democrats do things that are pro business, I gladly support it.

I liked the bank bailouts. I liked the Wall Street bailouts.

So some things won't ever change, especially the fact that I'll always think independently and will never join a team, aligning myself with one party on all issues. I'll surely vote democrat when the candidate and the issues call for it, and I'll vote republican plenty of times as well.

Mattyk 07-04-2010 11:17 AM

Re: Can you change?
 
I've been registered independent since day 1. I've never identified myself with either party though I've gotta say I've never once voted Republican, but I would if the right candidate came along. At this point I don't see a huge difference between either of the parties. It's just one big cluster F.

saden1 07-04-2010 12:07 PM

Re: Can you change?
 
I just want to put out there that Independent learners are just as partisan as Republicans and Democrats. They tend to always vote for Republicans or Democrats just like those that identify with a party. If you're not a pure independent or a vote-splitter you're not really an independent.

I get it if you just want to be able to vote in primaries in both parties though. Keep it real, enjoy your Independence Day meals.

GMScud 07-04-2010 01:05 PM

Re: Can you change?
 
I voted for Clinton in '96 shortly after my 18th birthday, but I've generally voted Republican ever since (with some exceptions in smaller local elections). I've never been a party lines kind of guy. Like Schneed, I prefer to evaluate each issue separately, but tend to side with Republicans. But I also agree with Matty. It's such a cluster eff right now. I actually changed my registration to Independent this past week. I'm kinda fed up.

cpayne5 07-04-2010 02:21 PM

Re: Can you change?
 
[quote=mredskins;710568]I have seen folks switch and normally it is from Dem to Rep. [B]I think the Dem party lends more to the younger generations where the GOP favors older generations.[/B]

Just my two cents.[/quote]

That made me think of this quote attributed (some think incorrectly) to Winston Churchill -
"If you're not liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not conservative when you're older, you have no brain."

tryfuhl 07-04-2010 08:25 PM

Re: Can you change?
 
[quote=Mattyk;710579]I've been registered independent since day 1. I've never identified myself with either party though I've gotta say I've never once voted Republican, but I would if the right candidate came along. At this point I don't see a huge difference between either of the parties. It's just one big cluster F.[/quote]I've voted Republican at the state level but never for the federal executive branch.

Most of my ideas run a bit right personally but I try to think of others when making bigger decisions such as who should run the country, not who would benefit just me. Our country needs plenty of help and it seems like the Dems are more willing to offer it whereas the Republicans don't seem to care as much. I know that there's partisan bickering on everything but it also seems like the Republicans won't give ANYTHING a chance and will bitch about it without having their own idea of how something should be done. I don't get as much of the play-by-play from Congress now that I don't watch C-Span much anymore though.

tryfuhl 07-04-2010 08:27 PM

Re: Can you change?
 
[quote=cpayne5;710606]That made me think of this quote attributed (some think incorrectly) to Winston Churchill -
"If you're not liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not conservative when you're older, you have no brain."[/quote]

ha.. I was going to post this in response to something the other day but was on my phone and was like eff it

I think that it's somewhat true.. or at least seems to happen quite a bit

I think that after awhile a lot of people lose sight of actual politics and certainly progressive politics.. as the world gets crazier they remember their own conservative times when things were simpler and in turn want that in their government as well

TheMalcolmConnection 07-05-2010 09:45 AM

Re: Can you change?
 
[quote=Schneed10;710576]A change in the tax bracket in which you're categorized. Get a big raise? You're more likely to see the republican point of view. Get laid off? You're more likely to see the democrats point of view. They say you never understand until you walk a mile in a man's shoes. If your financial situation in life changes, chances are you'll feel differently about a lot of things.

But for me, I consider myself an independent thinker. I will examine each situation independently, consider all viewpoints, and come up with my own conclusions. In this way, I don't consider myself either a democrat or republican; I'm a fan of whichever side has the right answer on a particular issue. This leads me to like republicans on some things, but democrats on others.

However the fundamental premises upon which I base my thinking mostly line up with the republican side (because I actually understand economics). Things like lower taxes, smaller government, pro business, etc. I don't see those things ever changing. However, if the Democrats do things that are pro business, I gladly support it.

I liked the bank bailouts. I liked the Wall Street bailouts.

So some things won't ever change, especially the fact that I'll always think independently and will never join a team, aligning myself with one party on all issues. I'll surely vote democrat when the candidate and the issues call for it, and I'll vote republican plenty of times as well.[/quote]

[quote=Mattyk]I've been registered independent since day 1. I've never identified myself with either party though I've gotta say I've never once voted Republican, but I would if the right candidate came along. At this point I don't see a huge difference between either of the parties. It's just one big cluster F.[/quote]

These. Exactly how I feel.

12thMan 07-05-2010 02:03 PM

Re: Can you change?
 
The simple answer to the question for me is, yes I can change. However, my feet are planted squarely within the Democratic party. I grew up in D.C., and I love this city with all of my heart, so I come from a "blue state", so to speak. So my views and political leanings were obviously influenced by my environment.

As far as values go, I'm conservative on some issues and I'm liberal on some others. I believe in an individual's right to bear arms, but I also believe in individual privacy and that a woman should have the right to choose what's best for her body and mental well being, not the government. I believe in basic human rights, whether you're a prisoner at Gitmo, someone in China working at sweat shop, or some kid getting beat down by a cop in S.E. D.C. It's just fundamental to who we are and why we are the greatest nation on earth. The minute we start inching to the right or left, little by little, on these basic truths we begin to compromise that greatness.

Could I vote for a Republican, hell yeah! But I've yet to be inspired by the party, the leaders and the brand of leadership they've put forth over the past decade. Say what you will about Bill Clinton, but we enjoyed prosperity during his presidency and he did pass the torch with a surplus. Say what you will about TARP, but the program has been a success and we've [I]only [/I]used $495 billion of the $700 billion. Truth is we need to cut some taxes in some areas and raise some taxes in some areas. We need to cut government in some places and expand government in some places (see BP oil spill and Wall Street reform.) So the Republican cookie cutter solution - this [B][I]or[/I][/B] that- not this [B][I]and [/I][/B]that doesn't work for me as a concerned and engaged citizen, and it certainly doesn't address the long-term systemic and complex problems that we face as a nation. If cutting taxes and government were the solutions to everything I'm sure George Bush, as inept as he was, would have figured that out and passed Obama a surplus. I just have to believe that. But governing and leading isn't that simple in this era. Besides, taxes were cut -- twice-- under Bush and the economy still spiraled into a deep recession.

But yeah, I can change!


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