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Mattyk 06-05-2013 12:10 PM

Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
WTF is going on with all this sexual abuse BS? :doh:

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/military-chiefs-balk-at-sex-assault-bill/2013/06/04/cd061cc4-cd1c-11e2-ac03-178510c9cc0a_story.html]Military chiefs balk at sexual-assault bill - The Washington Post[/url]

[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/04/us-usa-military-sexassault-idUSBRE95304F20130604]Senators, military brass battle over curbing sexual assault | Reuters[/url]

Alvin Walton 06-05-2013 01:23 PM

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
I'm not happy about these happenings but it has nothing to do with losing faith in the military.
I think they do their job quite well.
And I have always been against integrating women with men in the military.
Too much "shit" can happen and we're seeing that right now.

Mattyk 06-05-2013 01:33 PM

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
[quote=Alvin Walton;1010913]I'm not happy about these happenings but it has nothing to do with losing faith in the military.
I think they do their job quite well.
And I have always been against integrating women with men in the military.
Too much "shit" can happen and we're seeing that right now.[/quote]

The title of the thread is just following a theme from other threads.

If they dealt with their "shit" appropriately in the first place they wouldn't be having these problems.

I don't see a logical reason why men and women can't work and serve together as equals. Sad.

The Goat 06-05-2013 01:35 PM

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
Ok, I'll play along. A prof I was friends with about ten years ago taught at the Air Force Academy in Colorado before I knew him. Though there were far fewer women in the military then he told me one day about everything he heard and saw, and no doubt this nasty stuff has gone on a long time. He said on several occasions different women he advised or simply taught broke down in his office because they'd been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted and the commanding officers refused to do anything. My friend said the reason he left the academy is because of course he couldn't do anything about it either.

The most heinous thing he mentioned is how there was a tradition to lure a female cadet into a room where the male cadet's/officer's friends would be hiding and then they all jump in...ugh. Absolutely disgusting.

The Goat 06-05-2013 01:40 PM

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
[quote=Mattyk;1010918]The title of the thread is just following a theme from other threads.

If they dealt with their "shit" appropriately in the first place they wouldn't be having these problems.

[B]I don't see a logical reason why men and women can't work and serve together as equals. Sad.[/B][/quote]

This.

The notion sexual assault is the natural outcome of men and women serving together is BS. If there was real discipline and decency throughout the military this wouldn't be happening, and that's the bottom line.

The military provides a step up for many, many people. Excluding women from the opportunity would be just as wrong as the incidents of sexual assault IMO.

Alvin Walton 06-05-2013 03:52 PM

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
[quote=Mattyk;1010918]The title of the thread is just following a theme from other threads.

If they dealt with their "shit" appropriately in the first place they wouldn't be having these problems.

I don't see a logical reason why men and women can't work and serve together as equals. Sad.[/quote]

The same applies in the civilian sector.
Its not like all American perverts and racists are frog marched off to boot camp and put in a uniform.
The military isnt good at HR stuff and I dont ever expect it to be.
Way to much testosterone and bravado being paraded around.

Alvin Walton 06-05-2013 04:06 PM

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
[quote=The Goat;1010922]This.

The notion sexual assault is the natural outcome of men and women serving together is BS. If there was real discipline and decency throughout the military this wouldn't be happening, and that's the bottom line.

The military provides a step up for many, many people. Excluding women from the opportunity would be just as wrong as the incidents of sexual assault IMO.[/quote]

I think that excluding them would be wrong also.
I think that integrating them with men is also a bad idea.
If you put men and women together on an aircraft carrier or on a remote base for an extended deployment you are going to have problems.

Mattyk 06-05-2013 04:15 PM

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
[quote=Alvin Walton;1010984]I think that excluding them would be wrong also.
I think that integrating them with men is also a bad idea.
[B]If you put men and women together on an aircraft carrier or on a remote base for an extended deployment you are going to have problems.[/B][/quote]

Weak.

That sort of thinking led to these issues in the first place.

mredskins 06-05-2013 04:20 PM

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
[quote=Mattyk;1010992]Weak.

That sort of thinking led to these issues in the first place.[/quote]

Ever watch this doc?

[url=http://www.pbs.org/weta/carrier/]CARRIER | PBS[/url]

A carrier is like a giant floating High School.

Alvin Walton 06-05-2013 04:22 PM

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
[quote=Mattyk;1010992]Weak.

That sort of thinking led to these issues in the first place.[/quote]

No, its not weak.
I've been there and seen it to a degree. (seen it on a lower level, not participated)

You cant "command" testosterone especially when its combined with alcohol.

If you recall it was the PC crowd that wanted the integration to happen.
Military commanders were against it for these types of reasons.
They gave warnings but no one listened and it was forced on them.
This is the fault of the PC govt we have, not the military.

And it isnt a "type of thinking" its mother nature, bravado and alcohol doing its thing.

Schneed10 06-05-2013 04:23 PM

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
Whenever we see an NFL player arrested for DUI, the tendency is to scream about how the NFL is filled with a bunch of drunk drivers, leaping to the conclusion that the problem is more prevalent in the NFL than it is for our society as a whole.

Is there any evidence that sexual abuse in the military is any more prevalent than it is in our society as a whole?

And is there any evidence that there are more cover-ups of sexual abuses and assaults than there are in our corporations and elsewhere in our society?

I'm appalled as anybody by sexual abuse. But it has nothing to do with pairing males and females together in a work environment. It's just that when you have a large group of people anyplace, anytime, there's going to be a portion of them who are sick ****s.

Priests molest little boys. That does not mean the Catholic Church is more likely to have molesters than anyplace else.

I'm not dismissing it, organizations like the military and the church need to be held to a higher standard when it comes to responding to these things. But these things are going to happen, and the people who are committing the crime need to be dealt with, no matter where it happens.

Schneed10 06-05-2013 04:26 PM

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
And Matty, I know this is not at all, not even remotely, your intention. But I'd just like to say that our military is amazing and deserves all the thanks and faith in the world for the job they do.

Hopefully they succeed at changing the sexual abuse culture as well as they succeed in protecting our nation and interests.

Mattyk 06-05-2013 04:48 PM

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
[quote=Alvin Walton;1010995]No, its not weak.
I've been there and seen it to a degree. (seen it on a lower level, not participated)

You cant "command" testosterone especially when its combined with alcohol.

If you recall it was the PC crowd that wanted the integration to happen.
Military commanders were against it for these types of reasons.
They gave warnings but no one listened and it was forced on them.
This is the fault of the PC govt we have, not the military.

And it isnt a "type of thinking" its mother nature, bravado and alcohol doing its thing.[/quote]

Like I said, this line of thinking led to these issues.

You're basically throwing your hands up and saying oh well, when men and women get together shit happens.

Lame.

The military clearly looked the other way for too long and did not have policies in place to discourage this behavior and to properly discipline those that were clearly way out of line.

Mattyk 06-05-2013 04:49 PM

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
[quote=Schneed10;1010996]Whenever we see an NFL player arrested for DUI, the tendency is to scream about how the NFL is filled with a bunch of drunk drivers, leaping to the conclusion that the problem is more prevalent in the NFL than it is for our society as a whole.

Is there any evidence that sexual abuse in the military is any more prevalent than it is in our society as a whole?

And is there any evidence that there are more cover-ups of sexual abuses and assaults than there are in our corporations and elsewhere in our society?

I'm appalled as anybody by sexual abuse. But it has nothing to do with pairing males and females together in a work environment. It's just that when you have a large group of people anyplace, anytime, there's going to be a portion of them who are sick ****s.

Priests molest little boys. That does not mean the Catholic Church is more likely to have molesters than anyplace else.

I'm not dismissing it, [B]organizations like the military and the church need to be held to a higher standard when it comes to responding to these things[/B]. But these things are going to happen, and the people who are committing the crime need to be dealt with, no matter where it happens.[/quote]

That's all I'm trying to get at.

NC_Skins 06-05-2013 04:52 PM

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 
[quote=Alvin Walton;1010913]I think they do their job quite well.[/quote]


If you classify their job as killing people than yes they do that quite well. Unfortunately, they kill far too many innocent people to consider anything they do "well."


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