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SmootSmack 03-17-2005 02:19 PM

Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
Regardless of what you think of baseball, Barry Bonds or any of the other alleged steroid users, do you guys think that the records that have been broken in recent years should have asterisks on them? Specifically Sosa’s, McGwire’s and Bonds’ (or is it Bonds’s?) ?

I understand the argument that it’s good public relations to do it and show to the youth of the world that steroid use shouldn’t be encouraged. However, if steroid use was not illegal until 2003 in baseball then how can you punish someone for doing something that wasn’t illegal (even if unethical) before then? If the NBA decided to push the 3-point line back two inches starting in 2006 then you wouldn’t put asterisks on players who set 3-pointer records before the line was moved back right? When DC changed the drinking age to 21 (from 18) they didn’t go back and arrest (or whatever) the people who were drinking at ages 19 and 20.

There’s no asterisk next to Hall of Famer Gaylord Perry for using an illegal spitball for his entire career. If Sosa gets an asterisk it won’t be for using an illegally corked bat at least once in his career. So why should baseball go back and essentially punish McGwire, Sosa, Bonds and whoever else by putting an asterisk next to their names in the record books for something that wasn’t even illegal in baseball?

Looking ahead, hopefully we can move ahead with a steroid-free league. But what’s done is done.

cpayne5 03-17-2005 02:28 PM

Re: Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
If it is found that these players used steroids during certain times, then their stats should be erased for that amount of time.

An asterisk does nothing except say, 'yeah, he used steroids, but he still got the record'. I don't like that at all.

Mike & Mike were reporting this morning that MLB has even gone back on its 10 game suspension punishment by putting in 'or a $10k fine at the discretion of the commissioner'. That's just plain crap, IMO.

You do steroids, you get the Pete Rose treatment.

BrudLee 03-17-2005 03:56 PM

Re: Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
I say you can't punish someone for using a substance that wasn't illegal at the time.

Now that it is illegal, I think punishments should be a lot stricter. I think teams would monitor their players a lot more if the teams forfeited games the player was involved in.

JoeRedskin 03-17-2005 04:46 PM

Re: Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
Brud, TAFKAS - Generally, I agree that if it ain't illegal at the time then using a supplement shouldn't in any way be reflected in the records.

However, it is my understanding (from either a SI article or a Times mag article - and no, I don't have either link) that the steroids in question were on the "Controlled Dangerous Substance" lists of the time. As such, they could only be used if prescribed by a physician. Just b/c baseball didn't test aggressively doesn't mean the players didn't act illegally. And just so I am clear, if a player was determined to be using steroids illegally - would they have been allowed to continue playing or would they have been sanctioned in some way? I honestly do not know what the policy was in the 90's.

IMO - Anyone shown to be using a performance enhancing substance illegally should not be allowed to be a "record holder" if the record may have been aided by the illegal drug use.

This does require proof that a) the player used steroids and b) he did so in contravention of the law or of MLB rules. Record holders from the 90's should not ALL be "officially" tainted b/c some (or even a majority) acted illegally.

Of course, in the forum of public perception (a very different court) - it is perfectly acceptable to have doubts of some of these records unless and until the holders show that they did not help themselves through easily available and, apparantly, readily condoned steroid use.

BrudLee 03-17-2005 04:48 PM

Re: Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
How 'bout this for a noodle-scratcher.

I submit that the greatest aid that players of the modern era have had to increase their hitting numbers is [u]not[/u] steroids, but rather laser eye surgery.

Discuss. Or don't.

JoeRedskin 03-17-2005 04:53 PM

Re: Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
[QUOTE=BrudLee]How 'bout this for a noodle-scratcher.

I submit that the greatest aid that players of the modern era have had to increase their hitting numbers is [u]not[/u] steroids, but rather laser eye surgery.

Discuss. Or don't.[/QUOTE]

Hey ... It's legal and always has been.

HermosaBeach Skin Fan 03-17-2005 06:16 PM

Re: Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
Today's game is so different; without steroids, who would watch. I think the Major League should let them use metal bats, back up the mound and put in a pitch clock (similar to a shot clock in B-Ball, or Play Clock in Football).

skinsfanthru&thru 03-17-2005 06:25 PM

Re: Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
I don't know if the asterisk is the correct thing to do in this situation. I think if a player is found guilty and still makes it into the HOF, under their bust there should be an engravement of how the player used steroids. If possible I would love a vast majority of the hitting records the from the past couple years be tossed, but that ain't gonna happen. For me personally I have little reason to believe in many of today's pro baseball players and I personally will not recognize many of the recent records. There has always been various ways to cheat in baseball through the years, but actually taking substances to increase their strength and endurance is the worst imo. It just shows an absolute disrespect to those that came before them and actually worked for what they did, and rightfully earned their accolades.

redrock-skins 03-17-2005 07:40 PM

Re: Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
You can't go back and prove who did and who didn't use steroids and at exactly what time. Sure its easy to see McGwire or Sosa, but what about guys like Brady Anderson who hit 13, 12, and 16 in each of the three seasons before his 50 HR season(1996), then followed it up with 18 HRs and never hit more than 24 again. Do we asterisk that too, if we could actually prove he roids that year? How could we prove it anyway? There are other players like him too.

Gmanc711 03-17-2005 09:46 PM

Re: Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
[QUOTE=BrudLee]I say you can't punish someone for using a substance that wasn't illegal at the time.

Now that it is illegal, I think punishments should be a lot stricter. I think teams would monitor their players a lot more if the teams forfeited games the player was involved in.[/QUOTE]


I agree 100% with this. Its a shame to guys like Maris and Aaron, who are going to have the clean records; but if it wasent illegal, you cant punish someone for it. I also agree that since it is now illegal, it shouldnt be tolerated at all.

Personally; its the heads of baseball who I blame for this whole mess. How the hell is steriods not illegal in baseball? They have absolutley spineless policies; I dont blame a single guy for doing what they did. I dont nessicarly agree with it; but if these guys can be set up for life by taking drugs (which arent breaking the rules of the sport); I cant say I wouldnt do it, if it was oging to propel my game up that much..... just a horrible situation for baseball.

FRPLG 03-17-2005 09:48 PM

Re: Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
Steroids were illegal throughout the 90's. They simply weren't tested for because the CBA didn't contain any language as such. There was enough labor acrimony that the last thing anyone wanted to deal with was drug testing. They were worrying about staying in business so owners didn't push for it because it would have proven just another big hurdle in getting players on the field.

I disagree with those who think there should e asterisks. It is accepted that some players of the recent era were using steroids and by defualt all records set offensivley are completely tarnished. It is detrimental to the game to ahve these records on the books but...
If you consider removing them or even putting an asterisk next to them you start down a very slippery slope. To even consider such action would in my opinion require insurmountable evidence of steroid use. In the end it seems more detrimental to the game to start wiping out records. I think we move foward with the knowledge the many records are tarnished. Maybe down the road when all these guys are long gone they talk about removing them.

CrazyCanuck 03-18-2005 01:10 AM

Re: Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
I'm not in favor of asterisks. There have always been cheaters in the game.

It's the league's responsibility to enforce the rules, and given that MLB is probably the worst run league in the history of sports, I'm not surprised that they haven't. It would also help if they had some rules to begin with.

While I don't doubt that many of today's players are juiced, I don't think it's fair to punish them based on rules that didn't exist.

PS - Anyone catch the hearings today? - high comedy.
Sosa, Canseco, Palmeiro, McGwire, Schilling all sitting at the same table (Frank Thomas via satellite) with congressmen firing questions at them. Funny stuff.

Here's my report card:
- Sosa - looked as juiced as ever
- Canseco - juiced
- McGwire - juiced
- Palmeiro - looked clean to me
- Schilling - not juiced I don't think, just a little fat
- Thomas - underterminable due to satellite feed

GO NATS

Mattyk 03-18-2005 08:30 AM

Re: Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
All I know is I'm really tired of hearing about roids and baseball. It just makes me hate baseball that much more. Of course a bunch of these guys were juicing, HR numbers have gone through the roof and the players look like linebackers. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what was going on.

BDBohnzie 03-18-2005 11:27 AM

Re: Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
steroids are and were illegal....

however, they were not tested for, and unless you find someone who comes forward and feely admits to taking them (ala Canseco), then there isn't much you can do except speculate. there is no proof that they would have tested positive...

if the record books are laced with asterisks, you tarnish an already tarnished sport. as long as they go forward in their thinking, I honestly do not see a reason to add asterisks to the records.

both bud selig and donald fehr are the wrong guys you want representing your sport...

Daseal 03-20-2005 12:49 PM

Re: Asterisks on Baseball Records
 
Just disband it - baseball is a joke and football should be our national sport.


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