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GTripp0012 10-08-2013 05:00 PM

DeAngelo Hall vs. Josh Wilson vs. Carlos Rogers, A comparison
 
I felt through three games that DeAngelo Hall was off to a better start than he had been in years. So I went to the numbers to check to see if he was actually better.

I then decided to do a comparison for other prominent corners who have spend significant snaps playing for the Redskins.

The database I am using for this info is from STATS and only goes back to 2008. YPT stands for yards per target, which is a nice stat because a yard in 2008 is worth roughly the same as in 2013, so it's good for comparing guys off a 6 year period. It's a bit less effective at comparing guys across the boundaries of defensive schemes as you'll see below.

The Haslett scheme hurts average YPT numbers compared to what Vic Fangio and Rob Ryan run, who coach the other two defensive schemes in this comparison.

Here are the numbers, which are not adjusted for quality of competition or role:

DeAngelo Hall

2013 - 8.00 YPT
2012 - 9.33 YPT
2011 - 9.12 YPT
2010 - 9.75 YPT
2009 - 6.26 YPT
2008 (2TM) - 7.05 YPT
2008 (WAS) - 4.05 YPT
2008 (OAK) - 8.66 YPT

Josh Wilson

2013 - 7.81 YPT
2012 - 8.75 YPT
2011 - 6.59 YPT
2010 - 7.34 YPT
2009 - 7.04 YPT
2008 - 8.70 YPT

Carlos Rogers

2013 - 5.73 YPT
2012 - 6.34 YPT
2011 - 7.18 YPT
2010 - 7.90 YPT
2009 - 8.80 YPT
2008 - 5.95 YPT

League average sits around 7.7 YPT every season.

[B]Takeaways[/B]

2012 colors Josh Wilson's career in a way that isn't the most fair. He's been a really good corner, and by far the most effective corner to play for the Redskins since Jim Haslett became the DC.

DeAngelo Hall is playing a very strong four game stretch relative to the rest of his Washington career. I expected my eyes to be deceiving me, but they really weren't. That ridiculous half season he put up in 2008 remains a major outlier. He only played in 9 games in 2009, and the Redskins played a ridiculously weak schedule of passers that year (number 5 overall defense! everyone fired!)

Which doesn't explain Carlos Rogers' horrible struggles that year, given he's been well above average every other season on this list. Rogers was misused terribly in 2010, and has been really good in SF's scheme. His five game stretch to start this year puts him right at his career best totals from 2007-2008.

Hall has been consistently one of the worst cover guys in football each of the last three years, but he hasn't been one of the worst cover guys to start this season. It's not his fault (or really Wilson's) that the Redskins have started slowly on defense this year.

Michaelt31 10-08-2013 07:29 PM

Re: DeAngelo Hall vs. Josh Wilson vs. Carlos Rogers, A comparison
 
Josh covers more 2 & 3 WR's. So you basically saying,Josh should be on the no. 1 wr right. This guy can barely cover the 2 wr. He was getting beaten by the cowgirls 3rd or 4th wr in the finally last year. This guy won't be in the league next year. Small but can not stay with small WR's though. Hall is not elite, but the best we got. Put him on backups and let see how many catches he give up then. Some stats are over blown!!!

GTripp0012 10-08-2013 07:34 PM

Re: DeAngelo Hall vs. Josh Wilson vs. Carlos Rogers, A comparison
 
[quote=Michaelt31;1031416]Josh covers more 2 & 3 WR's. So you basically saying,Josh should be on the no. 1 wr right. This guy can barely cover the 2 wr. He was getting beaten by the cowgirls 3rd or 4th wr in the finally last year. This guy won't be in the league next year. Small but can not stay with small WR's though. Hall is not elite, but the best we got. Put him on backups and let see how many catches he give up then. Some stats are over blown!!![/quote]Wilson typically covers whoever lines up in the slot, be it the one, two, or three.

He's small and that can cause problems with tackling and bigger receivers, but that's not really something that Hall solves.

I'm not implying Josh should be on the number one receiver. Honestly, I'd probably prefer Amerson on the top receiver, all else equal. But since he's probably not ready to be a follow him over the field type shutdown corner, Hall is fine in that role. As soon as Amerson is comfortable enough in that role, it should be him.

At least when Hall is following the top receiver over the field, it takes away the ability of the offense to target him in zone coverage, which is a nice benefit.

GTripp0012 10-08-2013 07:39 PM

Re: DeAngelo Hall vs. Josh Wilson vs. Carlos Rogers, A comparison
 
This is not something tracked by YPT, but Wilson is also very good at intercepting off-the-mark passes. Rogers...not so much.

GTripp0012 10-08-2013 08:52 PM

Re: DeAngelo Hall vs. Josh Wilson vs. Carlos Rogers, A comparison
 
Also: 32nd in the league against no. 1 WRs this year. Played much better the last two weeks though against 2's and 3's.

[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2013 DEFENSIVE EFFICIENCY RATINGS[/url]

Bucket 10-08-2013 10:11 PM

Re: DeAngelo Hall vs. Josh Wilson vs. Carlos Rogers, A comparison
 
This is the worse tracked statline in the history of the NFL.. Just saying..

#1 WR on team A.. Wouldn't be as good as #1 WR on team B. Take in to account that teams play a lot of different teams.. Including divisional opponents...

I'm sure the DB's who have to play against Peyton Manning 2 times a year would be worse off then say someone who plays for Seattle. There is a lot of things that are not taken in to account.. It's just like the "sack" stat line

takethecake 10-08-2013 11:26 PM

Re: DeAngelo Hall vs. Josh Wilson vs. Carlos Rogers, A comparison
 
Yeah this is a really interesting topic, although it does seem to be difficult to really take into account all the factors that determine quality CB play. I wonder if there are any other metrics that NFL front offices commonly use?

The Goat 10-09-2013 12:44 AM

Re: DeAngelo Hall vs. Josh Wilson vs. Carlos Rogers, A comparison
 
I've seen all our corners get burned enough this year to know we don't have a shutdown corner, but we all knew that going into the season lol. Amerson could be a shutdown eventually, he's got the physical ability at least. But I'd still put Hall on Dez and most top WRs until it looks like Amerson is there.

I still don't see our corners as the main problem on defense. Safety (holdover from last year) and now tackling are the culprits. We need a FS who can make a pick when given the opportunity and that'll give QBs pause. We need a FS and SS who consistently tackle as the last lines of defense.

But I still think scheme and positioning puts our secondary out of position eg giving a huge cushion before the snap and not putting a safety over the hot receiver any given Sunday. Lack of adjustment is as big a problem on defense as it is on offense, and YOU CAN'T PUT THAT ON THE PLAYERS. I know it's a broken record but when the defense doesn't adjust all half and the offense keeps pushing plays like the pitch (when the defense is stacked in the box and blowing our oline back at will) you can't expect any better results. 2nd half adjustments have been too little too late.

GTripp0012 10-09-2013 01:16 AM

Re: DeAngelo Hall vs. Josh Wilson vs. Carlos Rogers, A comparison
 
[quote=Bucket;1031425]This is the worse tracked statline in the history of the NFL.. Just saying..

#1 WR on team A.. Wouldn't be as good as #1 WR on team B. Take in to account that teams play a lot of different teams.. Including divisional opponents...

I'm sure the DB's who have to play against Peyton Manning 2 times a year would be worse off then say someone who plays for Seattle. There is a lot of things that are not taken in to account.. It's just like the "sack" stat line[/quote]If you have a point, just make it. Don't beat around the bush.

GTripp0012 10-09-2013 01:19 AM

Re: DeAngelo Hall vs. Josh Wilson vs. Carlos Rogers, A comparison
 
[quote=The Goat;1031433]I've seen all our corners get burned enough this year to know we don't have a shutdown corner, but we all knew that going into the season lol. Amerson could be a shutdown eventually, he's got the physical ability at least. But I'd still put Hall on Dez and most top WRs until it looks like Amerson is there.

I still don't see our corners as the main problem on defense. Safety (holdover from last year) and now tackling are the culprits. We need a FS who can make a pick when given the opportunity and that'll give QBs pause. We need a FS and SS who consistently tackle as the last lines of defense.

But I still think scheme and positioning puts our secondary out of position eg giving a huge cushion before the snap and not putting a safety over the hot receiver any given Sunday. Lack of adjustment is as big a problem on defense as it is on offense, and YOU CAN'T PUT THAT ON THE PLAYERS. I know it's a broken record but when the defense doesn't adjust all half and the offense keeps pushing plays like the pitch (when the defense is stacked in the box and blowing our oline back at will) you can't expect any better results. 2nd half adjustments have been too little too late.[/quote]You might as well put Hall on Dez. I think he can handle it, as long as you keep expectations in check.

The big thing with the players is if they can't execute the most basic scheme, it's going to be tough to execute a more complicated scheme. We've changed a lot schematically since the Zorn/Blache years. In some ways, we're more prepared, in other ways, we're less prepared. But one thing that seems obvious is that there isn't as much quality defensive talent.

The Goat 10-09-2013 01:22 AM

Re: DeAngelo Hall vs. Josh Wilson vs. Carlos Rogers, A comparison
 
[quote=GTripp0012;1031435]If you have a [B]point[/B], just make it. Don't beat around the bush.[/quote]

He doesn't, aside from the one atop his mishaped head.

GTripp0012 10-09-2013 01:24 AM

Re: DeAngelo Hall vs. Josh Wilson vs. Carlos Rogers, A comparison
 
[quote=The Goat;1031437]He doesn't, aside from the one atop his mishaped head.[/quote]I lol'ed.

Bucket 10-09-2013 03:07 AM

Re: DeAngelo Hall vs. Josh Wilson vs. Carlos Rogers, A comparison
 
[quote=GTripp0012;1031435]If you have a point, just make it. Don't beat around the bush.[/quote]

I thought I did..

Reading comprehension my friend.

Stat is bogus

Oh, and Goat is just salty because the only people who would take his quality of posts serious are on extremeskins.


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