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Old 01-18-2006, 05:29 PM   #46
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Re: Free Agent WRs

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Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection
Ahh, I see you're from Niagara Falls. Gmanc, Daseal and I were up there during Christmas. We frequented a place you might recognize, Sundowner's (and pretty much every bar in town).
LOL
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Old 01-18-2006, 05:33 PM   #47
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Re: Free Agent WRs

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Originally Posted by offiss
Very good reply, I agree that Gibbs organizational skills are probably maybe the best ever, I also agree that had a big part in the turn around of the team.

But I do disagree with the Lewis analogy, our defense under Lewis although ranked in the top 10 stat wise, never really could stop anyone when it counted, Lewis is not in the same league as Williams defensivly, not even close.
I agree that Williams is better than Lewis defensively, but if Williams alone meant winning then he would have won in Buffalo. he had a great defense in Buffalo and might even be able to argue that his offense was better there also. Gibbs is just a winner, plain and simple. You can't find statistics to identify the value that Joe Gibbs brings to an organization.
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Old 01-18-2006, 06:37 PM   #48
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Re: Free Agent WRs

I'm not trying to start an arguement, but I have to disagree with you guys about Gregg Williams being better than Marvin Lewis on either side of the ball. Marvin Lewis helped win a Super Bowl as a coordinator and lead one of the greatest D's of all time. He was only here for one year, they would have gotten better, IMO, maybe not, cause Gregg Williams's D didn't get better this year, so I don't really know. However, Marvin Lewis is 10 times the head coach that Gregg Williams is and there's no arguing that. Williams took a decent team and they got really bad, Marvin took the laughing stock of the NFL and took em to the playoffs and hasn't had a losing season there.

IMO it's Lewis 10 times out of 10
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Old 01-18-2006, 07:16 PM   #49
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Re: Free Agent WRs

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Originally Posted by jdlea
I'm not trying to start an arguement, but I have to disagree with you guys about Gregg Williams being better than Marvin Lewis on either side of the ball. Marvin Lewis helped win a Super Bowl as a coordinator and lead one of the greatest D's of all time. He was only here for one year, they would have gotten better, IMO, maybe not, cause Gregg Williams's D didn't get better this year, so I don't really know. However, Marvin Lewis is 10 times the head coach that Gregg Williams is and there's no arguing that. Williams took a decent team and they got really bad, Marvin took the laughing stock of the NFL and took em to the playoffs and hasn't had a losing season there.

IMO it's Lewis 10 times out of 10

That actually makes alot of sense! Look at what Marvin Lewis has done since he became head coach for the Bengals. Gregg Williams couldn't do that when he was in Buffalo. Don't get me wrong, I love Gregg Williams, but if you're going to compare accomplishments, the tide shifts to Lewis.
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Old 01-18-2006, 08:31 PM   #50
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Re: Free Agent WRs

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Originally Posted by jdlea
I'm not trying to start an arguement, but I have to disagree with you guys about Gregg Williams being better than Marvin Lewis on either side of the ball. Marvin Lewis helped win a Super Bowl as a coordinator and lead one of the greatest D's of all time. He was only here for one year, they would have gotten better, IMO, maybe not, cause Gregg Williams's D didn't get better this year, so I don't really know. However, Marvin Lewis is 10 times the head coach that Gregg Williams is and there's no arguing that. Williams took a decent team and they got really bad, Marvin took the laughing stock of the NFL and took em to the playoffs and hasn't had a losing season there.

IMO it's Lewis 10 times out of 10
Marvin Lewis's defenses in Cinci have been pretty bad though. That team has won more with offense. The Baltimore players actually made Mike Nolan look like he can coach. GW built top defenses in Buffalo and Washington. Lewis is a good coach also but you need to look at which guy had more defensive talent to work with at each stop. Lewis had hall of fame players in Baltimore. Lewis has been more successful as a head coach than GW, that I would not argue.
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:21 PM   #51
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Re: Free Agent WRs

I think I'll give it a try

UFA’s

1)David Givens NE - Probably a little overrated, rather draft someone
2)Reggie Wayne Ind - be nice but too much $$, probably won't leave Indy
3)Josh Reed Buf - Actually could be good lost out to Evans, change of scene?
4)Randy Hymes Bal - No thanks
5)Antonio Bryant Cle - Character issues (remember Riggins), cheap only
6)Antwaan Randle El Pit - Overrated, don't think he is what Joe wants
7)Eric Moulds Buf - good short term fix. Strong possession WR w/ speed
8)Joe Jurevicius Sea - Not leaving Sea unless big $$$
9)Peter Warrick Sea - Played while in Sea, cheap only
10)Jabar Gaffney Hou - Could be good, may want out of Hou
11)Rod Gardner Car - Not on your life
12)Corey Bradford Hou - see #10
13)Kevin Johnson Det - No Way
14)Peerless Price Dal - Could relive Buf days, cheap only
15)Dez White Atl - No , been a bust
16)Koren Robinson Min - Ilike the idea, think it could work.
17)Quincy Morgan Pit - cheap only check out injury.
18)Az-Zhair Hakim NO - No one hit wonder
19)Tim Carter NYG - No thanks
20)David Boston Mia - Washington is a Drug free work place
21)Ike Hillard TB - I like this idea but don't think he will leave TB
22)Troy Brown NE - No Thanks
23)Tim Dwight NE - Too old
24)Jerome Pathon Atl - One hit wonder
25)Charles Lee Ari - Actually solid young receiver
26)Marc Boerighter KC - gets hurt every year, cheap only
27)Reggie Swinton Ari - No thanks
28)Troy Walters Ind - No thanks
29)Patrick Johnson Bal - No thanks

RFA’s

1)Brandon Lloyd SF - Won't leave with Norv on board.
2)Patrick Crayton Dal - Tuna likes him too much to let him leave to WAS
3)Nate Burleson Min - No thanks
4)Eddie Drummond Det-KR - No thanks
5)Kevin Walter Cin - No thanks
6)Shaun McDonald Stl - No thanks
7)Willie Ponder NYG - No thanks
8)Kevin Curtis Stl -- probably will NOT be let go by STL
9)Kelley Washington Cin - I like this idea but I would give up much
10)David Tyree NYG - No thanks
11)Derick Armstrong Hou - No thanks
12)Kaseem Osgood SD - No thanks
13)Arnaz Battle SF - No thanks
14)Chris Horn KC - No thanks
15)Bryan Gilmore Mia - No thanks
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:54 PM   #52
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Re: Free Agent WRs

Hard to decide because Lewis has done well and is still doing well but Williams made a good efense out of MUCH less talent than Lewis ever had. Our defense was ok when Lewis was here but it wasn't a game changing defense like it has been the last 2. I am not totally sold on Williams as a head coach but he can coordinate my defense any day.
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:55 PM   #53
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Re: Free Agent WRs

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Originally Posted by offiss
That is a dead on outstanding post Celt, very, very, perceptive!

I do beleive that coupled with Williams has been the difference, I absolutly agree 100%, but that alone isn't enough to win a SB, we have to get going on offense, is it the playcalling? Is it the offensive line? Is it the lack of quality #2,3 WR's? Or is it Brunell? That is the question, something needs fixing if we are to take the big step to SB contender.
Definitely. Somthing is wrong and it needs fixing. I hope Gibbs has a better idea than we do because it seems none of us agree much. Guess that's why were not coaches.
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:55 PM   #54
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Re: Free Agent WRs

what...nobody would like to see david boston as a skin?
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:58 PM   #55
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Re: Free Agent WRs

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what...nobody would like to see david boston as a skin?
ANWAGT

Put this idea on the scrap heap along with trading for TO and bringing Coles back.
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Old 01-19-2006, 12:04 AM   #56
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Re: Free Agent WRs

listen...not wanting TO is crazy...hes a headache, but hes the best at his position...do u wanna win or do u want a "happy camp"
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Old 01-19-2006, 01:10 AM   #57
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Re: Free Agent WRs

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Originally Posted by offiss
All of a sudden the Patton injury was a big blow to the offense? Makes me laugh as if he was doing anything before the injury, especially considering he had one of the best WR's in the NFL opposite him, normal rational would say that Patton should have been feasting on defenses who are out to shut down Moss, not the other way around.

Moss had a hard time getting the ball after Patton went down? No your right it didn't cross my mind because that didn't really happen.

Jacobs is worthless? Well so was Patton, I guess Moss didn't catch a ball after Patton went down? Who are you kidding? Moss continued his torid pace with jacobs in there as well, so this fantasy that some how Patton was providing this mysterious double coverage so Moss could rome the secondary with no, or single coverage is just pure fantasy.
on TJ, the coaches pointed out that he didn't play well in games and they didn't bench him because there simply wasn't anyone else to put in.

on patten, obviously you haven't done the math:
---BEFORE INJURY---
patten before: 2.4 for 24.1yards
jacobs before: 0.2 for 3.7yards
thrash before: 1.4 for 17yards
farris before: 0.1 for 2yards
Total before: 4.1 catches for 46.8 yards
---AFTER INJURY---
jacobs after: 1.3 for 9.5yards
thrash after: 0.2 for 5.1yards
Total after: 1.5 catches for 14.6 yards

moss averaged 104yards per game before patten went down,
and 73 yards afterwards.


that means that patten added 31(moss) + 32.3(others) yards and 2.5catches of WR offense per game.

and if you think the TEs and RBs made up some of that ground you'd also be dead wrong, cooleys numbers went down, portis's receiving stats went way down and sellers production died too.
---TEs---
Cooley before: 4.6catches for 52.1yards
cooley after: 4catches for 44.7yards

royal before: 1 for 5.2
royal after: 1.3 for 9.7

sellers before: 1.2 for 7.2 and 6 TDs
sellers after: 0.2 for 0.8 and 2 TDs

other TEs before: 0.2 for 2
other TEs after: 0.1 for 1.6

---RBs---
portis before: 2.3 for 18.1
portis after: 1.3 for 6.6

betts before: 0.9 for 8.2
betts after: 0.7 for 4

rock before: 0 for 0
rock after: 0.2 for 2.6

That means that passing production for WRs fell off by 63 yards per game, TEs by 10 yards (and a LOT of TDs), and RBs by 13 yards... that's a difference of 86 yards every game.

of course brunell's clutch play down the stretch :P also hurt, but patten's impact is the primary factor in a reduced passing game (moss's numbers immediately fell and were consistantly low until an outburst in the 2nd giants game).
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Old 01-19-2006, 01:15 AM   #58
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Re: Free Agent WRs

wow, gusbus's thoughts on WRs are almost identical to mine and sociofan, in your #2 analysis, you listed torry holt, but i'm pretty sure he's a #1 and bruce is the aging #2 there
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Old 01-19-2006, 06:15 AM   #59
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Re: Free Agent WRs

Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
The best point I guess I can make is this, who was singing Pattons praises before he was hurt, most of the questions were whats wrong with him, he's not performing like he did in New England. Now if Patton was such a big deal to the passing game, why do we have post after post, and thread after thread on our need for a #2 WR? Obviously we have one already on our roster in Patton, maybe the thread should read who's going to be our #3 reciever. Either Patton is the goods, or he is not. I do beleive right before Patton was hurt he made a comment about his lack of use in our offense, for what ever that is worth.

If we dump Jacobs so be it, although I don't really know if his failure so far is all his fault but it could really be, I don't know for sure, obviously judging him by his production he's a big bust, and maybe he is, and probably defiently as far as we are concerned.
cause patten didn't seem to be productive and individually he really wasn't (and an upgrade to production while also allowing the skins to cover for injury and provide 3 good WRs can't hurt). When you look at the numbers though the overall impact is pretty big. The only play I actually remember from patten was that 40-50yard PI call he got... either way we do need more talent there since we saw how good our other options really were.

As for jacobs, his numbers are bad, he's lack of history of production means no one bothers planning for him, and after he stinks up a game (oakland) he says things like "one of their CBs runs a 4.4 and the other a 4.2, what do you expect me to do?" There's just no killer instinct there besides the injury history. That's not the only excuse he's made either, but its the one I remember the best.
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Old 01-19-2006, 06:35 AM   #60
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Re: Free Agent WRs

Patten is a proven 3rd. Jacobs has scored less TD's than Darnarian McCants who plays for the Eagles now. Patten will be back, but we must add another WR and trade Jacobs for something; perhaps a gatorade cooler.
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