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Old 01-18-2006, 03:35 PM   #46
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Re: Free Agent WRs

Year Team G Rec Yds Y/G Avg Lng YAC 1stD TD
2005-06 St. Louis 14 102 1331 95.1 13.0 44 2.4 63 9 (Torry Holt)
2005-06 Seattle 13 67 778 59.8 11.6 56 4.1 43 3 (Bobby Engram)
2005-06 Arizona 16 103 1409 88.1 13.7 47 3.7 67 10 (Larry Fitzgerald)
2005-06 San Diego 16 57 725 45.3 12.7 49 3.0 35 3 (Eric Parker)
2005-06 Oakland 16 76 942 58.9 12.4 49 3.4 45 5 (Jerry Porter)
2005-06 New Orleans 16 70 945 59.1 13.5 43 3.8 50 7 (Donte Stallworth)
2005-06 Indianapolis 16 83 1055 65.9 12.7 66 3.8 54 5 (Reggie Wayne)
2005-06 Houston 16 55 492 30.8 8.9 29 2.3 31 2 (Jabbar Gaffney)
2005-06 Cincinnati 14 78 956 68.3 12.3 43 4.1 52 7 (TJ Houshmanzadeh)
2005-06 NY Giants 16 60 684 42.8 11.4 37 2.7 37 7 (Amani Toomer)
2005-06 New England 13 59 738 56.8 12.5 40 3.9 32 2 (David Givens)


Someone asked what I expected from a #2. Here is a sample (somewhat random) of #2s (who played an entire season or nearly so) from top of the league to bottom and their outputs. Nearly all of them had better numbers than our current #2 was on pace to get. I expect around 60-70 catches from each of the X and Y receivers (spread the wealth from Santana a bit to save his body) and another 50-60 each from the Z and H-Back positions. And for an average 300 completion season, that leaves about 60 more receptions to be spread around with TEs, FBs, and RBs--a balanced attack at all levels of the field, NOT a true vertical game. We need a receiver who can give us that 60 catch season with 800-900 yards. Cooley filled that role this season very well, but he's still an overperforming H-Back. What I expect is a solid receiver who is as feared as the #1 (or nearly so), but doesn't have a hang-up about being "THE Man".
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Old 01-18-2006, 03:54 PM   #47
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Re: Free Agent WRs

http://www.washtimes.com/sports/2006...5943-8513r.htm
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Old 01-18-2006, 04:10 PM   #48
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Re: Free Agent WRs

Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
HMMMmm, so what do think happened to our offense our last 3 games?

How's the counter trey been working out?

I do beleive we set a record in futility against Tampa for offense for a winning team in the playoffs, Tampa is not the 85' bears are they?

When was the last time we saw an offense that fultile during Gibbs first tenure?

Your more than welcome to prove your point.

I guess when J. Jansen said last year we were running an outdated offense he had it all wrong.
Counter trey's been working out fine, suffered a bit when Randy Thomas went down though.

We scored over 30 points in a game five different times this season. Something I believe we've only done once in the past decade.

As for Jansen's comments. First off, they were taken before this season. To say the offense hasn't improved from 2004 to 2005 and can't compete with today's defenses is ridiculous. And secondly, he said he thought we were running a 1992 offense. Which is kind of funny, since in 1992 we won the Super Bowl.
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Old 01-18-2006, 04:15 PM   #49
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Re: Free Agent WRs

We definitely need a threat at #2, but I'm against going out and finding a free agent to fill that void. I thought we filled that last year with David Patten, and that kind of knee jerk reaction is typical of what we've done in past years. We need to find a way to get other guys the ball, but just finding another wideout is not the answer. We've got to stop trying to find the quick fix, and while I'm definitely for bringing in a big, physical wideout to balance out our offense I don't see why Taylor Jacobs can't be molded to fit that. I know he's been snakebitten by injuries every year he's been with us, but I'd much rather see us go after a pass rushing defensive end who help get us into blitzing situations than to bring in yet another wideout who will most certainly damage our cap situation and still may not help in the long run. Let's run the guys we've got instead of pining away over someone who may not even be the answer.
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Old 01-18-2006, 04:20 PM   #50
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Re: Free Agent WRs

It's mainly because Taylor Jacobs is a pansy that lacks killer instinct. I was all for giving him his chance and he blow ALL of them. Time to cut our losses and find someone in FA or the draft.
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Old 01-18-2006, 04:21 PM   #51
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Re: Free Agent WRs

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Ahh, I see you're from Niagara Falls. Gmanc, Daseal and I were up there during Christmas. We frequented a place you might recognize, Sundowner's (and pretty much every bar in town).
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Old 01-18-2006, 05:19 PM   #52
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Re: Free Agent WRs

Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
It did, our offense was at it's best when we hit the Tampa, Cowboy's and Giants, and there was no Patton in any one of those games.

The problem with your statement about TJ is this other posters who attend the games have said the guy does get open but Brunell doesn't consider looking his way.
Well the people who say he was able to consistently get open are wrong. He wasn't. He consistently had no seperation and didn't show any type of ability to use his arms to get off jams at the line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
All of a sudden the Patton injury was a big blow to the offense? Makes me laugh as if he was doing anything before the injury, especially considering he had one of the best WR's in the NFL opposite him, normal rational would say that Patton should have been feasting on defenses who are out to shut down Moss, not the other way around.

Moss had a hard time getting the ball after Patton went down? No your right it didn't cross my mind because that didn't really happen.

Jacobs is worthless? Well so was Patton, I guess Moss didn't catch a ball after Patton went down? Who are you kidding? Moss continued his torid pace with jacobs in there as well, so this fantasy that some how Patton was providing this mysterious double coverage so Moss could rome the secondary with no, or single coverage is just pure fantasy.
Yes losing Patten was a big blow. Moss's numberd DID go down after Patten went down.
------------ R Y Y/R TD
With Patten: 5.9 103 17.6 .55
W/O Patten: 4.5 78 17.6 .28

Patten played in the first 9 games. That makes Moss's number per game all down except yards per catch. You're wrong: his numbers did go down. It is a TESTAMENT TO GIBBS AND BRUNELL that the loss of Patten didn't seem as bad as it really was. It was simply pronounced against the defenses smart enough tor realize it and take advantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
I am curious who points out on the Skins that Jacobs is a lowsey reciever, I know Gibbs sings his praises in practice, Gibbs put's him out there doesn't he, so now are you saying Gibbs doesn't have a clue? Are you saying gibbs is starting a player who can't play? And if the guy is as bad as you say why is he even on the team, Gibbs watched him all last season, he couldn't evaluate the guy for what he is after a year? Well perhaps we should have addressed the WR position in the draft, rather than drafting a QB with no one to throw to.
I haven't the energy to go find specific quotes but I think others will back me up when I say that more than once while the coaches were praising your man TJ for his practice efforts they also mentioned that he was failing to do the same in games. And yes the coaches put him out there. They put him out there because 2 of our top 3 WRs were down. He is our 4th WR. That's it. 4th. The fact that the Skins were trying every available option they could to get Thrash playing in the Seattle game should show you a little something about what they think of TJ. They'd rather have Thrash with a broken hand and a cast than Jacobs. Not a ringing endorsement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
Bottom line Patton was a big time reciever for the 3 time super bowl champs, comes to us and disapear's. So now JJ is a big time reciever, kind of funny he wasen't that with the Giants, and spends a lot of time on the injured list, systems and QB's can make or break a WR, and that is why I haven't closed the book on Jacobs, when a proven player like Patton disapears in our offense then that should raise a red flag that there could be another problem besides just the reciever. The fact is if Patton didn't do what he did in New England you would be trashing him to, saying the same things about him as you have about Jacobs, Patton spent more time on the bench injured this season than Jacobs?
Disappears? He was on pace for the same type season. And don';t even try to compare injury histories. Jacobs is a walking hernia/abdominal strain/ankle injury while Patten has been hurt once. No comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
Maybe Jacobs doesn't have what it takes who know's, but to make that assesment when all he has had is Brunell throwing him the ball just doesn't cut it for me. I seem to remember Coles wasen't overly enomoured with Brunell throwing him the ball either.
Brunell wasn't throwing to him actually because he sucks. Plain and simple. He has never shown anything ever in this league. To still support him in the face of insurmountable evidence is strange.
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Old 01-18-2006, 05:38 PM   #53
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Re: Free Agent WRs

Can someone find the quote where Jacobs said he was being covered by 2, 4.4 speed corners and there was nothing he could do?

TAFKAS, can you find it for me?

I mean right there should tell you that he doesn't belong in the NFL. You gotta have some swagger and confidence to be a WR at this level.
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Old 01-18-2006, 05:57 PM   #54
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Re: Free Agent WRs

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Wow! I didn't realize the cap situation was already so bad.

Maybe we can get Charley Taylor and Roy Jefferson to suit up for the league minimum.
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Old 01-18-2006, 06:29 PM   #55
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Re: Free Agent WRs

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection
Ahh, I see you're from Niagara Falls. Gmanc, Daseal and I were up there during Christmas. We frequented a place you might recognize, Sundowner's (and pretty much every bar in town).
LOL
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Old 01-18-2006, 06:33 PM   #56
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Re: Free Agent WRs

Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
Very good reply, I agree that Gibbs organizational skills are probably maybe the best ever, I also agree that had a big part in the turn around of the team.

But I do disagree with the Lewis analogy, our defense under Lewis although ranked in the top 10 stat wise, never really could stop anyone when it counted, Lewis is not in the same league as Williams defensivly, not even close.
I agree that Williams is better than Lewis defensively, but if Williams alone meant winning then he would have won in Buffalo. he had a great defense in Buffalo and might even be able to argue that his offense was better there also. Gibbs is just a winner, plain and simple. You can't find statistics to identify the value that Joe Gibbs brings to an organization.
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Old 01-18-2006, 07:37 PM   #57
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Re: Free Agent WRs

I'm not trying to start an arguement, but I have to disagree with you guys about Gregg Williams being better than Marvin Lewis on either side of the ball. Marvin Lewis helped win a Super Bowl as a coordinator and lead one of the greatest D's of all time. He was only here for one year, they would have gotten better, IMO, maybe not, cause Gregg Williams's D didn't get better this year, so I don't really know. However, Marvin Lewis is 10 times the head coach that Gregg Williams is and there's no arguing that. Williams took a decent team and they got really bad, Marvin took the laughing stock of the NFL and took em to the playoffs and hasn't had a losing season there.

IMO it's Lewis 10 times out of 10
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Old 01-18-2006, 08:16 PM   #58
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Re: Free Agent WRs

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I'm not trying to start an arguement, but I have to disagree with you guys about Gregg Williams being better than Marvin Lewis on either side of the ball. Marvin Lewis helped win a Super Bowl as a coordinator and lead one of the greatest D's of all time. He was only here for one year, they would have gotten better, IMO, maybe not, cause Gregg Williams's D didn't get better this year, so I don't really know. However, Marvin Lewis is 10 times the head coach that Gregg Williams is and there's no arguing that. Williams took a decent team and they got really bad, Marvin took the laughing stock of the NFL and took em to the playoffs and hasn't had a losing season there.

IMO it's Lewis 10 times out of 10

That actually makes alot of sense! Look at what Marvin Lewis has done since he became head coach for the Bengals. Gregg Williams couldn't do that when he was in Buffalo. Don't get me wrong, I love Gregg Williams, but if you're going to compare accomplishments, the tide shifts to Lewis.
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Old 01-18-2006, 09:31 PM   #59
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Re: Free Agent WRs

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I'm not trying to start an arguement, but I have to disagree with you guys about Gregg Williams being better than Marvin Lewis on either side of the ball. Marvin Lewis helped win a Super Bowl as a coordinator and lead one of the greatest D's of all time. He was only here for one year, they would have gotten better, IMO, maybe not, cause Gregg Williams's D didn't get better this year, so I don't really know. However, Marvin Lewis is 10 times the head coach that Gregg Williams is and there's no arguing that. Williams took a decent team and they got really bad, Marvin took the laughing stock of the NFL and took em to the playoffs and hasn't had a losing season there.

IMO it's Lewis 10 times out of 10
Marvin Lewis's defenses in Cinci have been pretty bad though. That team has won more with offense. The Baltimore players actually made Mike Nolan look like he can coach. GW built top defenses in Buffalo and Washington. Lewis is a good coach also but you need to look at which guy had more defensive talent to work with at each stop. Lewis had hall of fame players in Baltimore. Lewis has been more successful as a head coach than GW, that I would not argue.
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Old 01-19-2006, 12:21 AM   #60
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Re: Free Agent WRs

I think I'll give it a try

UFA’s

1)David Givens NE - Probably a little overrated, rather draft someone
2)Reggie Wayne Ind - be nice but too much $$, probably won't leave Indy
3)Josh Reed Buf - Actually could be good lost out to Evans, change of scene?
4)Randy Hymes Bal - No thanks
5)Antonio Bryant Cle - Character issues (remember Riggins), cheap only
6)Antwaan Randle El Pit - Overrated, don't think he is what Joe wants
7)Eric Moulds Buf - good short term fix. Strong possession WR w/ speed
8)Joe Jurevicius Sea - Not leaving Sea unless big $$$
9)Peter Warrick Sea - Played while in Sea, cheap only
10)Jabar Gaffney Hou - Could be good, may want out of Hou
11)Rod Gardner Car - Not on your life
12)Corey Bradford Hou - see #10
13)Kevin Johnson Det - No Way
14)Peerless Price Dal - Could relive Buf days, cheap only
15)Dez White Atl - No , been a bust
16)Koren Robinson Min - Ilike the idea, think it could work.
17)Quincy Morgan Pit - cheap only check out injury.
18)Az-Zhair Hakim NO - No one hit wonder
19)Tim Carter NYG - No thanks
20)David Boston Mia - Washington is a Drug free work place
21)Ike Hillard TB - I like this idea but don't think he will leave TB
22)Troy Brown NE - No Thanks
23)Tim Dwight NE - Too old
24)Jerome Pathon Atl - One hit wonder
25)Charles Lee Ari - Actually solid young receiver
26)Marc Boerighter KC - gets hurt every year, cheap only
27)Reggie Swinton Ari - No thanks
28)Troy Walters Ind - No thanks
29)Patrick Johnson Bal - No thanks

RFA’s

1)Brandon Lloyd SF - Won't leave with Norv on board.
2)Patrick Crayton Dal - Tuna likes him too much to let him leave to WAS
3)Nate Burleson Min - No thanks
4)Eddie Drummond Det-KR - No thanks
5)Kevin Walter Cin - No thanks
6)Shaun McDonald Stl - No thanks
7)Willie Ponder NYG - No thanks
8)Kevin Curtis Stl -- probably will NOT be let go by STL
9)Kelley Washington Cin - I like this idea but I would give up much
10)David Tyree NYG - No thanks
11)Derick Armstrong Hou - No thanks
12)Kaseem Osgood SD - No thanks
13)Arnaz Battle SF - No thanks
14)Chris Horn KC - No thanks
15)Bryan Gilmore Mia - No thanks
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